CAE positive doe...

ailsaek · #41 04/27/07, 11:12 AM

1. 40 is not very old.
2. Isn't this getting a touch pointless?

susanne · #42 04/27/07, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southerngurl

Manmade drugs are faulty, just like anything else manmade, because they are manmade. God's are whole and perfect if you use them as they are meant to be used. There has just not been enough learning in this area, because everyone is focused on man made products.

I'm not trying to talk you or anyone else into anything, but I am only stating what I know.

your herbal essence and tinctures are not man made? as soon as you pick it from its stems, using only certain part and put it in alcohol or what ever it falls in the same category you say is not working.

i should try eating it right where is grows

now, i think we should stop the discussion right here.

southerngurl · #43 04/27/07, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susanne

your herbal essence and tinctures are not man made? as soon as you pick it from its stems, using only certain part and put it in alcohol or what ever it falls in the same category you say is not working.

i should try eating it right where is grows

now, i think we should stop the discussion right here.

The chemical compounds are not manmade. They are only extracted by a process.

That's like calling flour manmade, sort of, it's been processed, but the product is just what it is, wheat.

Wendy · #44 04/27/07, 12:14 PM

Can you guys take your bickering to PM's?

Back to the original post................... I would not buy her no matter how well of an udder she had or how much she produced. It is best to start a herd from clean animals & build up a good reputation from there.

Alice In TX/MO · #45 04/27/07, 12:21 PM

I'm with Wendy. I wouldn't want a known disease carrying animal as part of my herd.

Feral Nature · #46 04/27/07, 01:50 PM

Don't buy a diseased goat and don't try to win an argument with a teenager.

.

southerngurl · #47 04/27/07, 02:12 PM

I'm not a teenager, and it was not my goal to "bicker", but would love for this to be back on topic. I don't believe I was the one that got it off topic in the first place. But was only responding to personal attacks and explaining my position which questions were asked.

So I, personally, would consider taking such a doe. Most would not. It's going to be a personal decision on what you believe you can do for the doe. You are taking a chance at recieving a doe who has all kinds of problems, but then she may well never show a symptom (if she isn't now). You will have a harder time selling her kids, though.

manygoatsnmore · #48 04/27/07, 02:59 PM

I think that some goats exposed to CAE will react as positive without showing any symptoms, much as a person exposed to TB will react as positive to a skin test without actually having TB. The problem is that you don't have any way of knowing which goats those are, and which goats will eventually show active CAE symptoms. And just having the CAE doe there is a risk to your whole breeding program.

I was sold a couple of CAE does cheap, not knowing they were positive, when we were fairly new to goats. Not nice. We had a doeling that went blind, staggered, and died, another that wasted, and the 3rd doe was asymptomatic, but because I didn't know she was positive, was allowed to nurse not only her kids but a bummer kid - all of whom were CAE + on test. We had to sell pretty much everyone and start over. I kept the CAE + doe for a while because she did throw nice kids, which were raised on CAE prevention and never tested +, but finally decided that the risk to the other goats was just too high, so she was sold TO A BUYER WHO KNEW HER CAE STATUS and wanted her as a brush goat only.

I applaud the sellers for being up front about the CAE status of the doe you are buying. I hope that if you do buy the doe, you will be able to buy a buck to freshen her and then wether him to keep as a companion. I'd suggest milking her through rather than breeding her every year - you won't get as much milk, but you won't have to go through the buy a buck, wether and butcher cycle or the whole heat treat and pasteurize thing with the kids, which should not be sold as breeding stock unless you are very up front about the CAE status of the dam.

You'd be better off to buy a CAE negative doe to start with, but if your heart is set on this particular doe, please do your homework on what it will take to protect other goats from her, and be prepared that she may never show symptoms, or she may go down at any time. It is a gamble, and only you can decide if it is really worth it to go this route.

One question for you - how old is this doe? The older a doe is when she shows positive, the less chance of her showing symptoms. If she is young, less than 6, I'd bow out of this deal.

Sherri C · #49 04/27/07, 03:02 PM

Do you know if the doe was positive with just one test or on repeat tests? Was it an antibody test or PCR?

As the prevalence of a disease decreases in a population, so does the positive predictive value of a test for the disease. No test is 100% accurate. Let's say you're using a test that's 98% specific. That means out of every 100 tests, 2 will be false positives. Now if you're testing a population with a high prevalence of the disease this increase won't be statistically significant. But if you're testing for a disease with a low prevalence those false positives become more statistically significant. The way to get around this is by repeat testing, preferably using a different method. That's one of the reasons why people say that a positive antibody test should be confirmed using PCR.

I'm basing this discussion on testing for human disease (I'm a Medical Technologist and I work for the company that makes the tests for HIV, HCV, and other diseases). I've not looked into CAE to see what the prevalence rate is in the general caprine population (or even if such a figure is available) or what the sensitivity, specificity, and positive and negative predictive values are for the various tests.

So what this all boils down to is that if this was just one antibody test which came up positive for this doe there may still be some hope. If multiple tests are positive then I'd think long and hard about whether this particular doe is the best answer for your family.

RedTartan · #50 04/27/07, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manygoatsnmore

One question for you - how old is this doe? The older a doe is when she shows positive, the less chance of her showing symptoms. If she is young, less than 6, I'd bow out of this deal.

She's 5 and tested negative for years before turning up positive out of the blue. I am going to practice CAE prevention for her kids and retest her as I truly don't see how she could have gotten it at this age with such a great breeder. I'm going to test her colostrum and hope that is a more reliable test.

Edited to add: She hasn't even shown this particular goat for a couple of years (2004). So how did it (and it alone) manage to contract this? Taking closed herd breeding into account... I'm thinking it may very well be a mistake, but I'm not counting on it.

RedTartan

RedTartan · #51 04/27/07, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherri C

Do you know if the doe was positive with just one test or on repeat tests? Was it an antibody test or PCR?

...

So what this all boils down to is that if this was just one antibody test which came up positive for this doe there may still be some hope. If multiple tests are positive then I'd think long and hard about whether this particular doe is the best answer for your family.

Honestly, I don't know. I didn't know enough yesterday (

) to ask. Again, I only know that this breeder tests yearly and she turned up positive this time. All of her other goats were negative. It was only this one. I plan on retesting her. See above post.

RedTartan

RedTartan · #52 04/27/07, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southerngurl

I'm not a teenager, and it was not my goal to "bicker", but would love for this to be back on topic. I don't believe I was the one that got it off topic in the first place. But was only responding to personal attacks and explaining my position which questions were asked.

.

It was an interesting tangent

I've studied alternative medicine for awhile and am familiar with many of the concepts you mentioned. I appreciate your participation. You should read some of fiasco farm's articles. The way they care for their goats would appeal to you. I'm sure enjoying reading their stuff.

RedTartan

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #53 04/28/07, 01:27 PM

She didn't just catch CAE unless they had a dog attack and the dog bit a CAE positive doe and then bit her....they injected this doe with blood from a positive doe, the virus is very very hard to contract in your adult doe herd. She has always been positive, she just now has the titer level for the lab to call her positive now. They only test the blood, with colostrum being the number one mode of transmission the virus is heavy in the colostrum to infec the kids and for the virus to live on in the new kids. It's the virus job to grow and multiply, so testing when it is in it's highest concentration is valuable to us. I would retest the doe after the stress of the move to your farm, bloodtest through another lab, PAVL someone who does Ellisa with another antigen used rather than WSU's homemade one. Or run a PCR in colorado, to double check for error. Then if she is positive again, she is. Vicki

havenberryfarm · #54 04/28/07, 07:15 PM

I have a CAE+ doe in my herd and I have a buck that is just for her. I keep her because I am attached to her and she gives our family 9+lbs of milk a day. She also has awesome kids, which I have raised on CAE prevention this year. Last year I missed the birth and so her daughters were lost to CAE. Both of them. I can't sell them. Both just awesome and wasted. One of them has symptoms. I have several goats who are negative and I use their colostrum to bottlefeed. I have to test every year, and I have to be so careful with everything, washing bottles separately from any milk and using bleach to disinfect.
I don't want to discourage you, but there is a lot to consider. The babies will be wonderfully friendly and you can always leave meat wethers on mom. There is a slight risk of encephalitis, but it is so hard to bottle-feed and then let them go for meat.
On the positive, I have a + buck, and I live in NW Ohio. He is a Kinza (new breed similar to a Kinder that we are developing) I might consider breeding her if I can figure out how to keep everyone separated. Of course, you would have to sell the kids as pets or 4H prejects, not worth much. Better than buying a new buck every year. He is a bottle baby that turned up positive anyway. I guess I did not heat the colostrum up enough. (That's why I now use CAE- colostrum instead of just heat-treating.)

CAE can be a real nightmare. There are no guarantees that you can do everything right, no matter how good your intentions. ( I sold his mother with a signed CAE disclosure, which I copied for my files.)

He has an amazingly gentle disposition and nice conformation. PM me if you are interested. I only get online every once in a while, so be patient.

NewlandNubians · #55 04/28/07, 07:26 PM

WSU were the ones saying 90% of positive never show symptoms.

My positives are not culls... I recently got a deposit on a CAE positive 90 appraising doe who is seven years old - nothing wrong with her except a positive test. I get so tired of the CAE bashing... my friend has had to put down many a 12-14 year old doe due to old age not CAE and these were pos animals. I have a few pos does left and when I sell a pos doe (which is rare) I sell with full disclosure, and I also have it on my website on my care page that I have a pos/neg herd. I do practice prevention and I have put down a few symptomatic does but I will NOT repeat NOT kill my pos just due to a test!!!!!!!!!!! It would shock the ---- out of you the big time breeders I know that have pos animals and will talk freely about it if asked...

Yahoo groups has a NON BASHING cae alternatives list anyone who is NON BASHING can join to learn more about CAE and managing it.

lilly foote · #56 04/28/07, 09:23 PM

i know i'm a little new to the goat world but i can't understand why you would want to feed your family from a deciesed(sorry spell)animal the last thing i would want to give my children is milk from a deceised goat that just doesn't make good sense in my opion lilly

Wendy · #57 04/28/07, 10:28 PM

Quote:

i know i'm a little new to the goat world but i can't understand why you would want to feed your family from a deciesed(sorry spell)animal the last thing i would want to give my children is milk from a deceised goat that just doesn't make good sense in my opion lilly

It doesn't affect humans.

lilly foote · #58 04/29/07, 02:24 PM

but if it affects there emune system then wouldn't they be more likely to catch something that could affect humans

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #59 04/29/07, 02:35 PM

WSU were the ones saying 90% of positive never show symptoms.

My positives are not culls... I recently got a deposit on a CAE positive 90 appraising doe who is seven years old - nothing wrong with her except a positive test. I get so tired of the CAE bashing... my friend has had to put down many a 12-14 year old doe due to old age not CAE and these were pos animals. I have a few pos does left and when I sell a pos doe (which is rare) I sell with full disclosure, and I also have it on my website on my care page that I have a pos/neg herd. I do practice prevention and I have put down a few symptomatic does but I will NOT repeat NOT kill my pos just due to a test!!!!!!!!!!! It would shock the ---- out of you the big time breeders I know that have pos animals and will talk freely about it if asked...

Yahoo groups has a NON BASHING cae alternatives list anyone who is NON BASHING can join to learn more about CAE and managing it.
............................

You know this post would have flown back in the mid 90's, but to still have CAE positive animals in your herd is just plain bad management. I don't give a rats ----- what big breeders have or don't have in their herds, I also don't buy from those who don't have the same BASHING attitude about a disease like CAE that I do. Perhaps the forum you mention would be an excellent for everyone to join so we can know who we don't want to ever purchase from.

I have 90 and 91 appraised does also, but they are CAE negative. I don't care if she was a national champion or appraised that high, I don't want CAE anymore, and have cleaned my herd of it. Any reputable breeder should do the same or expect bashing.

With the interent the next bashing on Nubian will likely be G6S, and already when contacting breeders for info on their bloodlines you see the same exact rethoric you stated above being said about G6S...we haven't seen a problem with it...we don't have any sypmtoms..the bloodlines are to valuable to get rid of or to test and have to disclose the carriers! Vicki

CountryHaven · #60 04/29/07, 03:25 PM

What is G6S?