CAE positive doe...

RedTartan · #21 04/26/07, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feral Nature

This just sounds like a really bad way to get started. Beginning your herd with two animals positive for a disease that every breeder worth their salt strives to avoid at all costs seems counterproductive.

Well, I'm not really after a herd. I'm seriously just after milk. I think breeding and showing should be left to those with a passion for improving the breed. That's not me. I want a dairy goat. This one has a fantastic, balanced udder with high milkfat that produces abundantly.

If I were serious about starting my own herd, I would never consider a CAE positive doe for anything. There's just too much controversy about CAE right now. From what I've learned today only 10% of CAE goats become symptomatic. That gives this goat a 90% chance of never having any CAE-related health problems.

Does it matter to the kids if a buck is CAE positive anyway? If the doe's already positive, why does it matter?

RedTartan

susanne · #22 04/26/07, 06:22 PM

my understanding is that you want to start with goats? to start with such a difficult chronic disease is not the best way to go. keep her as a family milker with a purchased buckling that you butcher each fall could work. forget AI if you have no idea about heat cycle and how to. to keep a tank is way too expensive for one doe.
i also agree with vicki. the breeder will be thrilled to learn that her positive doe was discussed on an open forum.
it is one thing to be open and honest about the cae status of the own herd and it is another to brag about some body else's animals.

RedTartan · #23 04/26/07, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susanne

my understanding is that you want to start with goats? to start with such a difficult chronic disease is not the best way to go. keep her as a family milker with a purchased buckling that you butcher each fall could work. forget AI if you have no idea about heat cycle and how to. to keep a tank is way too expensive for one doe.
i also agree with vicki. the breeder will be thrilled to learn that her positive doe was discussed on an open forum.
it is one thing to be open and honest about the cae status of the own herd and it is another to brag about some body else's animals.

I deleted the website as soon as Vicki mentioned it. Before that it hadn't occured to me that the breeder would mind my posting her site. I only wanted for everyone to be able to see the goat.

RedTartan

southerngurl · #24 04/26/07, 06:55 PM

I, myself, would get her. But I am about 99 percent sure that you can cure CAE.

RedTartan · #25 04/26/07, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southerngurl

I, myself, would get her. But I am about 99 percent sure that you can cure CAE.

Wow! I have a feeling you're about to get flamed

Could you elaborate either here or pm me?

Thanks,

RedTartan

homebirtha · #26 04/26/07, 10:02 PM

IMHO, you will regret purchasing this doe at some point down the road. If you just want a family milker and you don't want to spend a lot of money, I would be much less concerned about great bloodlines and get a healthy negative grade doe. Or use the money that you would have used on AI and buy a healthy doe from good bloodlines. It just seems like begging for trouble buying a positive doe. And for a family milker, what difference do great bloodlines make?

If you really feel the need to have this goat, I think the best thing is to get whatever buck you can find for cheap to breed her to and plan on putting all her kids in the freezer.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #27 04/26/07, 10:27 PM

From what I've learned today only 10% of CAE goats become symptomatic. That gives this goat a 90% chance of never having any CAE-related health problems.
.......................

Where is the literature on this? There is NONE...just someone saying this. There is no rhyme or reason or statistic to tell you when and if your doe will become symptomatic, if or when a kid will come down with the E of CAE Encephalytis and die, when it will hit as chronic pnemonia, hard udder, swollen dabilitating arthritis in the knees, hocks, joints, feet. This is not a disease that is pretty, the chornic health problems are horrible and painful.

And southergurl, you can cure CAE. Sorry you are either new to goats and have no idea what CAE is, or hurry and call the CDC because it would also mean a cure for OPP and AIDS/HIV, and all the other alphabet soup of immune disease. There is no cure for an autoimune disease. And in goats there isn't even good supportive care you can give long term. I dealt with CAE in the late 80's and early 90's. Vicki

My post may not be what you want to hear, but it's the truth, I would not want a doe supplying milk for my family who has a chornic disease. Sure she could go on to live years, but she can also turn the corner and be a massive headache after the stress of the move. A responsible breeder would give her to you to take the chance, or put her down themselves. Without papers, tattoo areas ruined so she can not be reregistered if sold.

Milk n' Honey · #28 04/26/07, 10:30 PM

CAE positive animals are cull animals. This woman is selling this doe, no doubt, because she doesn't want it in her herd or because she has separate areas for her positive and negative animals. Either way, it is usually a cull factor. Knowing that this doe is positive, I'd look elsewhere. CAE is a serious disease. What if she dies in a year? Will she then still be the bargain that you originally thought? There are grade goats that produce just as much milk. I agree with most everyone else. If I were to purchase this doe, it better be a super great deal and I would not sell any kids off of her.....they'd all have to be butchered. Think.....if you have a doe that has no known problems, you could sell of her kids each year to help pay for feed and such. That makes more sense to me. JMHO. Good luck in whatever you decide.

toomb68 · #29 04/27/07, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by homebirtha

IMHO, you will regret purchasing this doe at some point down the road. If you just want a family milker and you don't want to spend a lot of money, I would be much less concerned about great bloodlines and get a healthy negative grade doe. Or use the money that you would have used on AI and buy a healthy doe from good bloodlines. It just seems like begging for trouble buying a positive doe. And for a family milker, what difference do great bloodlines make?

If you really feel the need to have this goat, I think the best thing is to get whatever buck you can find for cheap to breed her to and plan on putting all her kids in the freezer.

i agree. i think it is a bad way to start out. i would avoid cae if possible. i you only want milk, who cares about her lines? there are plenty of milkers out there.

southerngurl · #30 04/27/07, 07:28 AM

Quote:

And southergurl, you can cure CAE. Sorry you are either new to goats and have no idea what CAE is, or hurry and call the CDC because it would also mean a cure for OPP and AIDS/HIV, and all the other alphabet soup of immune disease. There is no cure for an autoimune disease.

I believe there is a cure for every disease, and I have read of Aids being cured, just not with profitable drugs. I believe it could be. The diseases that make me more worried are things that kill quickly. Sudden things are the hardest to overcome, but something that gives you time is different.

I do not wish to get in a fight about this, I have a different view and opinion of disease. I do not claim to "know it all" or be able to cure everything myself. But I believe I could cure a CAE positive doe. If not in an individual, in subsequent generations in a herd. I'm not telling you how to care for your animals, I'm only telling you my opinion. Are there not does that are exposed to the virus yet never get sick? They fight it off.

Is it not true that the test tests for the antibodies, not the virus? So, theoretically a doe that was able to fight off the virus, would test positive by my understanding? This would make curing a doe difficult, how could you prove it? Unless you had a symptomatic doe and the symptoms ceased. Though this would still not be total proof.

susanne · #31 04/27/07, 07:59 AM

southerngurl you are telling others to get a positive doe because YOU can cure it? i think you are dreaming. this is what is written in those wonder docters books about herbs and tinctures. even the homeopath doesn't claim to cure all. you might be good in treating the symptoms and help to keep the doe a little bit longer in her misery but that is how far it goes.
i would be very interested in learning about your treatment with you can believe what ever you want but don't recommend it until you have proven it.

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But I believe I could cure a CAE positive doe. If not in an individual, in subsequent generations in a herd.

yeah i can cure my herd from this disease if i cull and do feed only heat treated colostrum and pasteurized milk

to say there is a cure for aids but it is not profitable and that is why it is not used is absolutely ridicules.

southerngurl · #32 04/27/07, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susanne

you are telling others to get a positive doe because YOU can cure it?

No, I didn't tell her to get it.

That is the most frustrating thing I find on these boards, people don't take the time to read what I say, but assume what I'm saying before they finish a sentence.

southerngurl · #33 04/27/07, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susanne

you are telling others to get a positive doe because YOU can cure it?
that need the treatment as well that goes with the recommendation. you can believe what ever you want but don't recommend it until you have proven it.

to say there is a cure for aids but it is not profitable and that is why it is not used is absolutely ridicules.

The FDA says ONLY drugs can cure, you cannot use an herb or nutrition to cure. If it can't be patented, it's not a drug, and it can't cure. Silly ain't it?

susanne · #34 04/27/07, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southerngurl

The FDA says ONLY drugs can cure, you cannot use an herb or nutrition to cure. If it can't be patented, it's not a drug, and it can't cure. Silly ain't it?

you know, there are a lot of hiv positive people out there that would love to grab the last straw you are offering. they try every thing from homeopathies, herbs and drinking their own urine. in the end they die anyway. it has nothing to do with what the fda allows/accept or not. up to date there is no such cure for hiv/aids.

southerngurl · #35 04/27/07, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susanne

you know, there are a lot of hiv positive people out there that would love to grab the last straw you are offering.

I'm not offering anything. Living through diseases like this is not about some magical substance, it's about a total change in so many things, and having the understanding and know how to do it. Which I don't fully have for something like that.

But healing is from God, and he did give us herbs for the healing of our diseases.

southerngurl · #36 04/27/07, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susanne

yeah i can cure my herd from this disease if i cull and do feed only heat treated colostrum and pasteurized milk

How long has that been going on, yet people have it pop up again later.

Some culling is always beneficial, but it's not about culling the animals that have been EXPOSED to the virus, but those that are SICKENED by it. Because the virus is showing you weakeness in that animal. Just the same, I do not believe that such an animal COULD NOT be saved, if someone wanted to.

southerngurl · #37 04/27/07, 08:42 AM

And just because I am new to goats does not mean I am new to disease. I have learned a lot over the past year, because I have so many animals, and vets are usually no help (and I'm not blaming them or trying to badmouth them, I'm just saying my experience). We've had a pup with parvo, my favorite cat died of cytauxoonosis, and had another sick with it. It is quick and extremely deadly. The first cat we took to the vet, and it costs us a bunch of money and the poor cat lived out his last days in an unfamiliar place with hollering animals all around. I know they did all they knew to help him, but I'm not doing that to another animal. It's been a year, but I still cry to think of him.

We had another cat get sick right after him. His temp was 106, which the vet said was probably a blood parasite, if not the cytaux, we kept him home and gave him herbs and he lived. So, since he wasn't tested you can't say for sure what he had, but he did fine after a few days. We've had things like pink eye, proud flesh, cuts, arthritis, etc. with the animals. All of us humans here have our own weaknesses as well, and we continue to learn and fare better. I dont' claim to know it all, but I am learning all the time. My mother is an RN, so I do have some medical knowledge from her, as I am always a curious person so I always ask things.

Disclaimer: I would like to say most herbal remedies you buy are of no value, they are weak. This is the main reason why herbs are considered so weak. If you are going to use herbs, make your own from organic herbs (or better yet grow them yourself) or buy them from someone who explains how they make them (large quantities of herb to a certain amount of alcohol mix, and allowing them to set at LEAST 14 days, 28 is better. Months is even better.) And always be learning.

susanne · #38 04/27/07, 10:18 AM

southerngirl i will not say that herbs aren't beneficial.
i worked as a nurse a couple of years and had to take care of many aids and cancer patient on their last way. i can tell you that was not very pleasant. they tried everything before they died.
i'm not working as a nurse anymore but i'm still getting news and e-mails from friends and nothing has changed.
you are running after an ideology that does not exist. maybe you are still too young to see that.

southerngurl · #39 04/27/07, 10:52 AM

Well, is my mom too young as well? She is 40 this year. She could be making a lot of money right now as an RN, but chooses not to.

Every female on my dad's side of the family has either had their gall bladder removed or died of gall bladder disease. My sister is the only one who has had no problems, and the only difference is diet and herbs. Mine was removed years ago, before we knew what to do about it. Thankfully my gall bladder removal went fine, but most do not (or most that I have known of). Both of my cousins had problems from it (one was male - and only 20) my aunt has problems from having hers removed, my grandma has problems from it. So I don't understand why they are so quick to yank them out and tell you it will cause no problems. If going to the restroom every 5 minutes isn't a problem for you then go for it!

Anyway, I have seen herbs, not only be "beneficial" but I've seen them cure things that the doctors CAN'T. Not cancer or AIDS, because I've not had anyone I know come down with it (except grandma had cancer that was removed- she is fine now, but that was a while back). But I've seen them used to heal things from bone, joint and back problems to acne and fungal infections. A lady in her 70's that I know went off her blood pressure medication and uses only herbs and diet to control it. Of course she was careful and weaned herself off of them, but before she was VERY dependant on them.

Herbs have chemicals in them, just as medicines do. Only they are accompanied by other chemicals and properties that buffer them and help them work correctly and with the body.

Manmade drugs are faulty, just like anything else manmade, because they are manmade. God's are whole and perfect if you use them as they are meant to be used. There has just not been enough learning in this area, because everyone is focused on man made products.

I'm not trying to talk you or anyone else into anything, but I am only stating what I know.

southerngurl · #40 04/27/07, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susanne

southerngirl i will not say that herbs aren't beneficial.
i worked as a nurse a couple of years and had to take care of many aids and cancer patient on their last way. i can tell you that was not very pleasant. they tried everything before they died.

There's no way they tried "everything". You must mean they tried many things.