Pour on Wormer--don't pour? Now I'm really confused

Also, one more question... just in case this particular product would be 'questionable' to give orally... does it HURT them to do it topically (poured on) or just not as effective because of their higher matabolism?

__________________
~Tami

Bob and Tami Parrington
COUNTRY HAVEN RANCH-

To get all the info on my new novel SHAKEDOWN, and watch the video trailer check out my writer's website: 'The Writer's Corner'

Thanks Emily. It was all lumped together with the Ivomec and stuff and I thought it was the same thing. Actually though since lice was the problem I was worried about here at this particular moment that's what I was looking on the bottle to see if it treated it. I really didn't even realize it was 'soley' a de-louser. I will buy Eprinex next time if it breaks me. LOL and I'll give that orally. I've been using the Ivermectin paste for wormer when needed though.

__________________
~Tami

Bob and Tami Parrington
COUNTRY HAVEN RANCH-

To get all the info on my new novel SHAKEDOWN, and watch the video trailer check out my writer's website: 'The Writer's Corner'

The stuff you describe a couple posts back, isn't a wormer, its a delouser product....so I would follow directions on the bottle. It would be given topically, not orally. Only give pour-on *wormers* orally....not delice products. I'm sorry if my previous post confused you...got to get my head on straight today.
And of course, if your actually needing to *worm* your goats...the stuff you described won't work, you'll need to buy an actual dewormer.

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Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Nubians & Lamanchas
www.ozarkjewels.net

"Remember, no man is a failure, who has friends" -Clarence

Oh, no problem, I didn't feel "called out" at all. I just did not want to add to any confusion....LOL! I have used ivermectin in the past, but only the injectable form..either by inj. or orally. I have never poured anything on a goat.

I use cydectin pour-on orally 1cc per 22-25lbs for adults, and valbazen 1cc per 10lbs orally for kids. Right now, that is all I use.

In some cases kids get cydectin if suspected of picking up worms from adult pens. Kids never penned with adults ever are fine wormed just with valbazen.

(All kids need valbazen as it get s tapes...as does safeguard and both these white wormers are safe)

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Diane Rhodes
Feral Nature Farm
LaManchas, MiniManchas and Boers
Member ADGA, MDGA

Yeah, thanks again Emily. Right now I just wanted to make sure no creepy crawly things would bother the goats. At this moment it's not a problem, but like I said earlier I found a few of my horses with lice and I want to treat everyone to prevent a huge problem 'just in case'.

Would you do that with the goats? Or wait until you actually saw signs of lice? Can you overdo something like lice prevention and actually cause the type of problems with that as you can with overworming?

__________________
~Tami

Bob and Tami Parrington
COUNTRY HAVEN RANCH-

To get all the info on my new novel SHAKEDOWN, and watch the video trailer check out my writer's website: 'The Writer's Corner'

Don't be to sure on that.....I'm just adding to the confusion by using the word "topical" when I meant "oral"......just yell at me, please!

__________________
Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Nubians & Lamanchas
www.ozarkjewels.net

"Remember, no man is a failure, who has friends" -Clarence

If anyone spent even 5 mintues on a site that tests wormers on goats...like Texas A&M and most of the University sites, they would know that ALL wormers are give to goats orally, by mouth. Pour-on's, injectables and orals. To not know this means you have not done your homework, and certainly should not be on a list giving out poor information.

Pouring on wormers can cause neurological problems in goats because their hide is not as tough as a cattle, plus most folks do alot to goats at one time...vaccinate, delice, and worm, do all this and you will have a reaition pouring on wormer.

Ivermectin in any form should never be used in infant goatlings, their blood brain barrier is not formed yet, not mature enough to handle a wormer like Ivermectin. Why the hoeegers information on using Ivermectin on kids 4 days old is just plain scarry!

When someone is giving you worming information ask them: What worms is that wormer killing in your herd? What were your worm egg numbers of that worm before and after you used the wormer. Because what you will find is that go by "my goats look good" more than fecal samples or Famacha. Using a pouron at double or triple the dosage even poured on is once again just scarry! Pour on wormers are used at bottle dosages ORALLY in goats...Cydectin 1cc per 22 pounds, just like labeled, only instead of poured on you put it in their mouth, plus Eprienix is just plain too expensive. We also have no idea if the no milkwithdrawal of using any of this orally, since the milk withdrawal times are for cows poured on, and not at double the dose, is true or not for our goats. Heeding 48 hours is pretty common practice...considering injected use of Ivermectin is up into the high 20's for days to milk withdrawal. It is not supposed to bind with the butterfat in the milk but does so for meat. So somewhere this information on zero milk withdrawal can't be a test, it is heresay.

Please know what you are reading...we are talking wormers here....and yes Ivermectin injected or given orally will get lice...but when you are buying a lice pour on, heed those instructions, they aren't wormers. Vicki

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Vicki McGaugh
Nubian Soaps
North of Houston TX
www.etsy.com/shop/nubiansoaps

A 3 decade dairy goat farm homestead that is now a retail/wholesale soap company and construction business.

Vicki--then should I NOT use this delouser at all? (I haven't yet since this whole thing made me a little leary). It's not the ivomec wormer, it's specifically a topical delouser. But if goat skin is so much more frail should I just not use it at all... then again, should I even treat at all if there aren't any lice that I know of present? I was just doing it as a precautionary measure, but maybe I'm being too reactionary.

__________________
~Tami

Bob and Tami Parrington
COUNTRY HAVEN RANCH-

To get all the info on my new novel SHAKEDOWN, and watch the video trailer check out my writer's website: 'The Writer's Corner'

I am just answering the OP here, not any of the replies, based on 17 years of ivermectin use:

1.) I use the pour-on as a pour-on and orally. I use it as a pour-on as a management practice, as Janis S. outlined. I use it orally if there is an acute worm problem in an individual goat. Around 6 cc per adult goat of pour-on given orally clears up worms in intense cases. Both methods clear worms, as proven by local vet fecals. I like the pour-on because of its ease of use. I can do them while they feed at the trough, and I even keep on hand several dollar store squirt guns, so I can shoot the more skittish goats while in the pasture during the period in which I do not offer supplemental feed (late spring to late fall). I stole the squirt gun idea from a "Farm Journal" tips page.

2.) Ivermectin does NOT hurt kids, nor will it harm fetuses in pregnant does. The safety margin for ivermectin is incredibly high. The major mistake most goat owners make is UNDERdosing their animals, not overdosing them. When in doubt, err on the side of the higher dose. Underdosing encourages resistance in worms that do survive. I have used ivermectin at all times in gestation.

3.) I worm using FAMACHA practices. See: https://www.uky.edu/Ag/AnimalScience...etter01704.pdf I encourage all producers to go to this system, and to use wormers on a ladder basis. Learn about all wormers, then first use the oldest style wormer that works in your situation, rather than immediately jumping to the newest available. We all need to be responsbile in doing our part to minimize worm resistance. There are no more wormers in the pipeline, folks, so we must be responsible about this problem to ensure efficacy in the future. The old vet-approved advice to "worm the whole herd once a month, then turn them out on fresh pasture" has been proven in studies to be exactly what NOT to do.

4.) Ivermectin, topically or orally, will kill lice. The lice are killed by feeding on the medicated blood.

Managing with this system, I have been able to use ivermectin for 17 years without resistance.

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Jim Steele
Sweetpea Farms
"To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing." -- Robert Gates

But oh my..please use the right product in the right way. The product haven has is not a product any of you are using. CAUTION: Delouser..make sure you all are on the same page here..or an animal(s) are going to pay the price.

I am not much for fixing something that ain't broke..but that's just me.

Depends on your definition of "right." The majority of wormers are being used in goats by extralabel use, regardless of method of use. They are not labeled for, nor intended to be used, in goats by the manufacturers.

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Jim Steele
Sweetpea Farms
"To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing." -- Robert Gates

Jim..I merely mean..SHE is talking about a DELOUSER..orally or topically. MOST of the rest of you are talking about a WORMER. Unless I have totally lost my mind..and that is a very distinct possibility..they are two very different things.

Sher, many systemic antihelmitics also work for lice. I have never bought a delouser, considering it redundant.

From a management perspective, lice can be easily controlled. Just make sure the goats get plenty of sunshine and have adequate pasture to spread out, and make sure sunshine shines into the barn as much as possible and that the breeze is allowed into the barn. Sunshine and space prevent a whole raftfull of troubles.

Normal worming with an antihelmintic that controls lice as one of its properties will keep the lice problem down nicely with no extra work needed. The possible exception is for wool species like angoras and cashmere, where sunlight cannot penetrate far down enough when they are in wool.

I woudn't worry about find a few nits or lice in a healthy herd. Lice are a seasonal self-limiting pest in healthy herds, anyway, and are more a nuisance than a bother. (If you don't believe me on self-limiting, look it up in the vet journals for yourself). Good management holds down lice populations so far that there will be no trouble. Once the old coat is shed out, and plenty of sunshine hits the skin, the nuisance is over. Now I'm talking about healthy herds managed so that they get plenty of space, fresh air and sunshine. Best of all, fresh air and sunshine are free!

Sometime during that springtime, you'll likely get an eyelid reading that the goat needs a wormer, and using one effective against lice will nail any that are present.

Dandruff can be helped by adding a little bit of inexpensive vegetable oil to the feed and mixing it in. Or you can go the more expensive route and adjust your ration to include an oilseed -- flax or sunflower or the like. Elderly goats tend to get dandruff just as a matter of course.

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Jim Steele
Sweetpea Farms
"To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing." -- Robert Gates

A delice has nothing to do with pouron wormers. It is a topical posion for lice, it kills both biting and suckling lice, something ivermectin will not do. Ivermectin does not kill BOTH sucking and biting lice.

Pouron wormers have a carrier in them much like DMSO, this solvent allows something topically applied to the skin to go into the blood stream. IF you took Ivermectin oral drench or Ivermectin injectable and poured it on the skin, it would do nothing...it needs the pouron carrier to make it work better.

The reason I don't use them poured on is because it is proven it doesn't work as good or for as long if you don't give it orally. With Cydectin being the last class of wormer we have, even though some of us can go back to other classes that don't have resistance, using cydecting as a pouron for me would give me faster resistance. Giving it orally at the correct dosage and when it's needed by fecal, will keep the wormer worming for you longer. With wide spread Ivermectin resistance already for blood sucking worms...in other areas where strongides are the biggest problem Ivermectin still will work well, but in blood sucking worms and since we know there is already resistance, than pouring it on isn't hurting anything since it won't be much longer before it won't work at all, orally or poured on.

The FAMACHA chart is a good tool, but it is only that a tool, when you use it exculsively for charting anemai caused by worms you are worming at salvage, the doe is already anemic the worms are in such high numbers and sucking soo much blood, that she is anemic...than you worm. In meat goats this is fine. If you do this to dairy goats which have soo much more product yearround...milk, kids etc.. rather than meat does with their 2 kids a year nursed for 12 weeks...you will have loss, not only of milk, but of does.

It is well known that Ivermectin does indeed cross the blood brain barrier, it is why it is the only wormer you use (that works) for menengial worm...given to a kid with no mature blood brain barrier to filter the drug, you can cause neurological problems that are blamed on the E form of CAE, disbudding and other things like, polio and tetanus.

So none of this hurts the goat to give pourons as pourons, but do your homework and the information is out there, done by Universities on goats, that all womrers work better and show less resistance over the long haul when given orally at correct dosages. You don't know what the correct dosage for your farm is unless you fecal. Vicki

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Vicki McGaugh
Nubian Soaps
North of Houston TX
www.etsy.com/shop/nubiansoaps

A 3 decade dairy goat farm homestead that is now a retail/wholesale soap company and construction business.

Jim..do you consider this a dewormer? If not..that is the point I am trying ever so hard to make. This in my mind is NOT a wormer. Its a delouser..so NO I would not put it down a goats throat...for worms or anything else.

I am simply saying...we need to be careful and read everything..as something like this stuff going down a healthy goat..who doesn't even have lice..could be dangerous..if not fatal.

If a person just read the first few posts...they would be getting the wrong idea. She wanted to delice with this stuff and asked if it should be topically applied or given by mouth..that was her confusion. The confusion on other peoples part is..she has a Delouser bought..not a wormer.

Sher, my first post to this thread says...

(for those who aren't savvy on Internet abbreviations, "OP" means "original poster" or "original post.")

Yeah, that is a delouser. B-U-T, I was not answering anything but the OP. And I said that right up front, too.

Of course, if we want to just see how many words we can type going around about a thread that has gone off subject, that's fine too.

But if we're gonna do that, let's talk about CHOCOLATE, instead!

Now, where's Gailann?

__________________
Jim Steele
Sweetpea Farms
"To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing." -- Robert Gates

Okay jim..This is one of those threads that if people don't read all the posts, someone could make a big mistake. That's all I am saying..I merely don't want someone to catch the wrong idea here. Safety first and all of that.

I by no means am challenging you..I was trying to get you to see how this might get used in a wrong way. New people with goats..ya know? Not old hands and experts. Everyone kept going back to the wormer side of things. Just wanted to reinstate..what was what. The OP was how to administer..to me..what was being administered was what was scary.

But heck..they're not my goats.. you can carry on with your chocolate now..I'll take mine as pie.

No, milk chocolate truffles......<long sigh>

__________________
Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Nubians & Lamanchas
www.ozarkjewels.net

"Remember, no man is a failure, who has friends" -Clarence

LOL I'm sorry I confused everybody. It WAS my fault because in my original post I called it a 'wormer' and compared it to Ivomectin BECAUSE it was presented that way in store.

I am putting the bottle of stuff I got up on a shelf ---maybe someday I'll get a cow. LOL

I'll buy Ivomectin and use it accordingly.

I was just probably jumping the gun anyway since NONE of my goats currently show any signs of having lice. I found it on three of my horses (I know, not the same species specific louse) and not even all of the rest of them... but I didn't want it 'traveling the farm' and thought I would prevent a bigger problem.

Still gonna do all the horses, but I'll not do the goats unless I see a problem. They get LOTS of sunshine and only the two dairy does are currently 'barned', and even they are outside in the sunshine during the day. The rest are in paddocks with run ins and spend most of their time out in the sunlight.

__________________
~Tami

Bob and Tami Parrington
COUNTRY HAVEN RANCH-

To get all the info on my new novel SHAKEDOWN, and watch the video trailer check out my writer's website: 'The Writer's Corner'

Oh... I"m very sorry, I forgot to mention... BUT I DO greatly appreciate ALL of the answers and opinions in this tread. May have even prevented a problem for me if I had used the product I had even topically as bottle suggested.

__________________
~Tami

Bob and Tami Parrington
COUNTRY HAVEN RANCH-

To get all the info on my new novel SHAKEDOWN, and watch the video trailer check out my writer's website: 'The Writer's Corner'