I think the dog did it (kind of graphic)

First I must be honest and say that I know nothing about blue heelers - never even seen one in real life. But other dogs - I have never had a dog that wasn't safe with poultry, goats, cows horses whatever. If you do some basic obedience with them and once they are going, do your obedience work around the heels of the goats, through the chicken yard etc. After a while they learn that you expect them to totally ignore the animals as part of their training. My present dog came to me having been a stray in a city and that WAS funny as she didn't know whether to chase them or run away from them LOL.

Having said that a herding dog may find its desire to chase just too much for its training I guess. My neighbours have Border Collies and they would do anything to chase my guys. They chase the cows at the dairy farm next door, and they try to chase my pony (but he puts his feet out at them ) I hate to think what would happen if they got near my goats.

Like I say, I know nothing about heelers but if she is half German Shepherd that is a good start.

And I disagree with those that say that once they have tasted blood you have no chance. Two of our dogs each killed a chicken before they were trained and turned out the most reliable dogs you could wish for.

Good luck

hoggie

First, I wouldn't condemn the dog until you have better proof that it is the dog. But I also wouldn't allow it access to where the goats are. Perhaps crate the dog when you're not home?

Second, I agree that it's not always a lost cause when a dog kills chickens and gets a "taste for the blood". We have an English Shepherd who killed a few chickens when she was young. She was severely punished for it and hasn't done it again in over a year.

Now we have a husky mix who is just about a year old. He also was going after the chickens. He was also punished strongly and so far, has not done it again. It's been about 4 months, so I'm still sitting with my fingers crossed. He will try to herd them like the ES does, but so far, he leaves them alone.

So I do think some dogs are trainable. And I think the age when it happens can make a difference too.

I personally love shock collars too. When the dog gets to playing to rough with the animal (goat, chicken, cows) they will think that the shock they get is from said animal and are more likely to think "OUCH! I that animal can hurt me back, maybe I wont play with them." when it's you giving the punishment they think "hummm, I'll just wait till they're out of sight."
the GP I have now killed a baby goat earlier this year baby was probably around a week old (buck) the ears were eaten off but other than that, no other mark. I gritted my teeth and kept him as he was only 5 months old and the barn door was left open by someone else (long story) so, he wasn't supposed to be around them to begin with. Well, I kept him and about a month later when the kids were old enough and the dog had one-on-one time with the adult bucks and some of the more aggressive does he got to meet the kids. As the days went by we spent more time with the kids (also depended on how warm it was!) then one day I got to the barn and their standing on the inside was Bo (the dog) my heart stopped. I slowly opened the door to what I thought would be carnage, but lo and behold all goats, adults and kids, were alive and happy. Bo just stood their wagging his tail looking at me and smiling. Since that day I have trusted him and even though he's only about 7 months old he romes with the goats unsupervised. (Although he seems to spend most of the time at the kitchen door looking in and begging for scraps! ) the goats completely trust him as I do as well. He did kill chickens as well as a pup (well, more of a pup) but now I only fight with him to get the eggs. The hardest part is to be their during EVERY meeting with the livestock at first.


-Melissa

I agree.Blue Heelers mature slower than any other dog I have had.Seems they stayed puppies forever.They are three now and are finally settling down.I don't believe the taste of blood ruins a dog if so I wouldn't have these dogs.The don't bother chickens,or the goats now and are wonderful companions.. that being said I still wouldn't give them free rein with the goats because instinct could kick in at any time and I might not be there to say no. Yes they are trainable.By nature dogs are predators and goats are prey .

good advice

Thanks for all the replies!! Hubby still holds firmly that we give her LOTS more training before we give her up. We wouldn't ever have a dog on a chain, so if the training doesn't do the trick, then she would have to go to a non-livestock home.

She is only 2 yrs old, and I agree with what the pp said about heelers taking so long to mature. I also am pretty sure that she's had very little or maybe no training thus far, so that is probably having a big impact. I know the last year or so, her previous owner has been travelling and working a lot, and she's been left to amuse herself a lot of the days, then inside the house at night. Here it's just the opposite - we're running around the farm all day, and she's outside at night, expected to stay awake and ward off the boogie-man (cougar, etc.). So, I think she's maybe overstimulated, and just not trained. She didn't chase or molest the livestock (goats, chickens, pigs) at her old house, and they free-ranged, and those exact animals are here now (but she hasn't shown any sign of messing with those particular ones, maybe she knows they're her old friends?).

I'm not sure what I think on the taste-of-blood theories. I know we put down one really awesome dog that was a chicken mass murderer, and it sucked, but we were pretty certain that he wasn't going to get over it. (He decimated nearly 30 chicks in one day, and that was just the grand finale to a very busy week with the laying hens.) Then again, when I was a teenager, my dog got into the chicken-mercenary business, and my dad duct-taped one of the dead chickens to her collar forEVER (seemed like months to me, mom says it was a couple of weeks), but that dog never even LOOKED at another chicken, so maybe training can help!! (Hubby's first thought was to tie the dead goat to Polly's back leg and make her sit with it or drag it around, but I was afraid she'd go ahead and eat it if we did that!)

We might try some paintball gun training, but unless that works REALLY well, REALLY fast, I think hubby will progress to the electric collar. He wanted to do that to begin with, when we first brought them home, but I begged him to wait (I should know my hubby's always right ! We're also putting up electric fencing around the goat pasture, and we'll make sure we've got a Polly-height hot wire in there!

I think we'll give it through the summer, and give her lots of training in with the animals before we give up on her.

Thanks again you guys!!

Tracey Mouse

I keep sampling this thread, it keeps getting longer as the days go by. Seems to me your answer is right there in the quote. German Shepherds are natural hunters, and heelers are bred to chase. Leave that cross unsupervised with your goats, and tah-dah. Nuff said. You need a LGD breed.

__________________
Jim Steele
Sweetpea Farms
"To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing." -- Robert Gates

Now, when you guys say "unsupervised" do you mean with obvious access to the goats (like fencing the dogs can obviously go through), or do you mean literally, dog not on chain and my eyes not on her?

Once we put up a (theoretically) dog-proof pasture fencing (and reinforce those blankety-blank barn doors!), is that sufficient?

You know, as far as the Shepherd thing goes, I know there's always exceptions to every breed, but her daddy is purebred GS except for 1/16 timberwolf (which makes him HUGE) and he is the calmest, most mellow guy I've ever seen around livestock. Only 5 yrs old, but he wouldn't even lift his head for the chickens (although he does take off flying up into the woods a dozen times a night, so I guess his wild-animal instincts are still there). In fact, he laid at the door and cried like a baby when the triplets were born a couple of weeks ago, and the minute we let him in the stall to check it out, he was nuzzling them and licking them, and mama was just fine with it (but these are the Kiko goats that came from his old house, so they all grew up together).

Anyways, I am really curious as to what your guys' definitions of unsupervised are. Even with training, I would never leave either dog with open access to the barn interior or the interior of the goat pasture. That's just begging for trouble, I think. Maybe with a trained-from-birth purebred LGD (MAYBE!), but not your typical dog, and certainly not ANY dog I've ever had. Goats are just too small and too tempting. Cows, horses, even llamas, sure, but not goats or sheep (IMO).

Tracey Mouse

By unsupervised I mean free access to the goats inside the barn or fence without supervision.Mine are loose and outside the fence and when we move from pasture to pasture they are allowed to help but they are never left where they could chase or bite goats . Someone in another thread said something about the goats getting loose and getting on the car or in the garden.I don't have to worry about that cause I am pretty sure if I wasn't home and a goat got loose it would either be killed or chased away.I have a very good fence . My heelers are great dogs ,they just aren't goat dogs. I tried the electric collar on mine and short of electrocution it didn't work .(hard headed) .They hate to be spanked though it hurts their feelings so all I have to do is carry a switch and they are the best behaved dogs you have ever seen.