OK~ Need a brain pool for guys goats
 

A guy stopped by my house today wondering if I had any milk as he's having ALL his does kid with NO milk. None. He's lost 8 babies so far and the ones alive don't look so hot so he says. He said that some are even starting out with some and then just drying up spontaneously. He's feeding 2 alfalfa round bales a day that weigh 60-70lbs each and a 5gal bucket of 13% feed. He's wormed with ivomec and safeguard and tried some kind of stuff in the water. These are dairy crosses and a couple of boers. Some are having triplets and are very thin. He also said that they have clumpy stools that you can see the berries but they are all lumped up together.
I told him that if it were me I would first worm them with Cydectin, then put Corid in the water for 21 days. I also gave him my feed mix which is 17% to get from the feed store as he uses the same place.
Can you guys think of anything else I could tell him? I feed bad for him and even milked some out of my goat although I'm running shy by a gallon a day cause I have 2 does feeding the kids from 5 does. Can you all think of anything else? I have scratched my head..... :shrug: He did tell me how wonderful all of mine looked though so that was nice. HAHA! Always able to find that silver lining. LOL!

Whoa, 5 gallons of feed for 8 does? Isn't that way to much? I give my nubian about 2 cups per day, 4 at the most. That's about 1/2 -1 lb. I would expect them to have clumpy poo with that much grain...

Perhap the high quantity of grain is messing up their phosphorus to calcium ratio. I would definately cut them back to 2-4 cups of grain per goat per day and keep with the alfalfa as he is.

I'm sure someone will have more info.

***Edited to add, oh 8 babies were lost, for some reason I thought he was feeding 8 does. Ok, how many does is he feeding?

I'm with southerngurl..that kinda grain is going to mess up the ratio. Even of good alfalfa.

Has he checked to see if there is anything askew with the hay? Like weeds..or a spray?

Good luck..that's alot of kids to lose for not having milk..why didn't he supplement milk? Just curious.

IF he is feeding like that there is no reason for the no milk, they would be getting everything they need and more...the problem with trying to help others is that you have no idea what the truth is. I could worm my goats with what he used and my goats would still have a heavy blood sucking worm load, dehydrated does do not milk...medicate my goats water with something like Corrid and they won't drink the water, no water no milk. Vicki

You can make a mix to help milking. (But if you have all that milk why not give him some?) Here's the mix I found it on the net. (I haven't tried it yet, but will make some for the few fall shows.)

----Goat Milking Mix----
(Feb,18,2004)

used to make doe milk more and to help with milk crush herbs into powder and mix with feed 3 tbs each milking
In it.:
Fennel,
Fenugreek
& Dill

I think that is way to much! we feed all 12 does and 1 wether (1 milking, 3 dry yearlings, 3 Preg does, 1 wether, and 2 bottle babies!) about 5 pounds a feeding. (My milker gets about 1/4 of that and she still isn't gaining weight! Time to worm her!!!!!)

Copper deficiency.

He can feed the kids whole cows milk.

My first thought is that they aren't getting enough water (they are most likely dehydrated), and if he's putting something in the water that keeps them from drinking, that could be a big part of it. Or, if he isn't keeping the water clean they may not drink it. Also, I agree...way too much grain per goat...probably shouldn't give them more than 1-2 cups each per day. Or, could they be sleeping in such dirty bedding that they have mastitis?

No way to know for sure unless you go check out the situation for yourself.

Why doesn't he call his vet?

I'm with a few others here......is he telling the truth??? Sounds like they should be milking fine. Better than mine, in fact. :rolleyes:
Even when I knew *nothing* about goats and the does were kidded out on sweet feed and fescue hay, they still milked plenty to feed and raise their kids. And thats with no worming or cocci treatment. So.......I can't really think of much, if he really is feeding what he says he is. :shrug:

I didn't see anything posted about what minerals he's giving them, so I'm wondering, too, about the copper? And, yes, too much grain for the amount of hay. I don't know how many goats he's feeding (that information would help), but if the does are getting plenty of good hay, they don't need a whole lot of grain, especially right after they've kidded. Even if a doe is a heavy milker, you work up to the higher amounts of grain fed.

One of the ladies in our goat club here had unusual worm problems last year with her goats, and had to go to a very expensive wormer in order to get rid of it. She's an experienced goat keeper, judges shows, and usually her does win when she shows hers, plus she's selling milk, and her does looked like s**t last year until she got that expensive wormer in them. And she had problems with low amounts of milk, too (of course). So definitely worms could be contributing. But I do think that the mineral situation ought to be looked into.

Kathleen

I'm pretty sure the OP means a 5 gallon bucket for the entire herd. "Feed mix" could be anything, most likely an all breed or stock mix, without adequate calcium or copper for goats. If he's feeding 140 - 160 lbs of alfalfa, he's probably feeding a dozen to 18 goats, so a 5 gallon bucket (about 10lbs of feed) wouldn't be too much - it wouldn't be near enough for that many adult goats. Lack of calcium and copper are leading causes of does kidding with no milk, not worm load, which probably isn't high coming out of winter in Indiana.

We've had a high worm load year. This years winter has been extremely warm and wet. We had about one month of "winter weather" but even that was very wet.


That Amish farmer down the way from you has a bunch of Jerseys...and the milk truck driver quit coming for the milk last summer.....if they still haven't found an outlet for that milk...maybe he could get some from them?

I think that DocM wins the booby prize. I called them tonight and asked about their minerals and they aren't feeding any more than what is in their feed and they have sheep and so feed no copper in it and so........... copper deficiency! Their goats all have that wirey hair and aren't milking and look like crap I guess from what they've said. He was embarrassed for me to look at them cause he was really stumped. They didn't know that minerals could play that big of a role. And yes I do think that they were being honest cause they were just clueless and have had trouble every year for the past couple since they got the goats and apparently this is the cause. Just ignorance. They have had blood work done on em and use the same vet I do. All the blood came back fine. So..... I think it's the minerals. I told em to get some tomorrow and either lock the sheep up or if it will be a problem separating them then sell em.
Thanks all though for the responses. And as to Hazy Day who posted about me having extra milk I guess she missed the part where I said that I was supplementing a gallon a day cause I was running short. I milked some out of my doe knowing I needed the milk pretty bad but just wanted to be nice. And these people are really nice and I think that they geniunly care about their animals and are bottle feeding some just can't afford a bunch of supplement. I know that's terrible to say but he's spending a lot in grain and hay thinking that should work not knowing that if he just bought a $12 bag of minerals he'd be so much ahead. I feel bad for em and will keep in touch I hope and keep tabs to see if there's anything else that I can do.
Thanks all that replied! Copper didn't dawn on me till I had seen it posted and then it was just duh......

*Bows*

Copper bolus then a good sheep mineral. I would also test for CAE . Ask about bo-se also.


Patty

I told them a copper bolus but they had used some kind of bolus and lost something or something but she said that she would ask the vet about em. She is also going to be getting some Bo-Se. Doubt they will worry about CAE. They just raise them for meat.

They don't make copper bolus in a goat size, if you use a calf bolus you're going to make your goats toxic. I use the site below for making my own sized bolus. I found that several of my goats, regardless of the mineral blend, are simply not using the minerals and so I've been diligent in making sure each one is getting the right combo - formulated goat feed that isn't moldy or made strictly from byproducts isn't available here.

http://www.u-sayranch.com/goats/copper.html

For reference, amazon has the best prices on empty gel caps and small digital scales.

allenslabs, I think it is really cool that your trying to help these folks out! It is nice to know that there is help out there for people that dont know where to turn.
I have learned so much here, and I am glad, there are no goat folks next to me.

Good call, hope that is the problem. Another thing is Fescue grass is known to cause symptoms like this in goats who aren't getting the proper nutrients supplemented to them during pregnancy. I have never had this problem, but have heard from those that have. :shrug:

I've been blessed enough to have wonderful "goatie" friends who are willing to help you out or even tell me my does look nice but need to give bose cause the pasterns are too springy and you might switch this or that to improve coat or general apperance or whatever. If not for those or mainly that one friend then who knows.... I might have goats that look like this guys and be feeling sick. So I'm glad to help someone as those that REALLY care about their animals almost before themselves are hard to find and people like that are the ones you want to help. This guy I think is one of them. This guy had been working to find me and going to others with goats cause he'd exhausted all options that the vet had given him. But thanks guys for the help.... it's really appreciated and his animals will appreciate all them goat people out there that chimed in. Shanks!

I'm interested in the comment that was made about "wire" like hair.... Is that a symptom of copper deficiency? I've been noticing that my goat's coats are getting dry and "crispy"; is that what was meant? I buy loose minerals in a 40 lb bag from my feed store that is simply stamped "goat mineral".... What is the proper amount of copper I should look for on the tag to make sure it's a good quality product for goats?

Thanks, Jill

Doc - thanks for posting that site. Now I am thinking about bolusing my girls. I have a black doe that has the brown fading almost exactly the same as in one of their pictures. My girls have access to minerals but only for a limited time of the day - most of the day they are in with the sheep without copper in the minerals.
Dawn

I don't know what the proper amount is but my goat mineral has 300 ppm copper.

I've seen goat minerals labeled anything between 80 ppm and 1000 ppm.

Purina goat minerals is labeled at 1700 ppm min.

Here's a list of common brands and their mineral contents.

http://www.saanendoah.com/mineralanalysis.html#PGM