Who wants free goats?
 

Would anyone here be willing to take an entire herd of 13 - mixed types (4 wethers and 9 does - all adults with horns except 1 alpine doe)?

Here is the thing...

My husband and I have had most of these guys since they were born, and the others were rescues. We love them dearly and keep them purely as pets and for brush control. We have been having a really hard time financially lately and are finding it very difficult to afford feed (especially with the cost of hay going through the roof these days!) We haven't wanted to sell them or give them away because most people would only want them as meat goats or for breeding/milking and then possibly slaughter later when they weren't as productive. We understand the economics of that, but since these are pets (just like a dog or cat) to us, we just can't stand that option.

What we would like is for some kind soul to agree to take them and keep them together until they die a natural death. We couldn't expect that they would not be bred and the offspring sold, but we would need to have a promise that the original herd was allowed to live together until the end - preferably in a nice brushy pasture here in the ozarks since they are used to getting a lot more leafy browse (instead of grass and hay) than most herds do. We would also need for whoever agreed to take them that if they ever needed to get rid of them they would have to return them to us. (Kind of a permanent loan - like zoos do with their breeding stock so they can insure genetic diversity without having to maintain huge numbers of animals.)

This would be the perfect thing for someone who isn't into having any particular purebred strain, but just wants to keep a few goats for milk or brush control, etc. and can't afford the stock to get started. (We even have a couple of precocious milkers in the herd - at least 2 who have never been bred but produce milk all the time!)

If interested I can tell you that we have one purebred alpine who is older and a proven mother - she has had many sets of twins including 2 sets that are now adults and still in this herd. One is a 50/50 alpine/boer buck who fathered the other two twins on his mother and a single wether with his own alpine/boer twin sister when he was just 5 months old. (We weren't expecting that! He has since been castrated. You can figure the alpine/boer percentages of those unions.) Anyway, that family group accounts for 4 of the females and 2 of the males.

We have another slightly younger doe who we believe to be pure Saanen. She has had one set of twins (boy & girl) also fathered by the buck above and also still in this herd. (At least the doe is - her brother was the much beloved goat that I wrote about a couple of months back. He was very healthy - our biggest goat - then suddenly got what we thought was goat polio, but turned out to be listeriosis. He didn't respond to treatment and died on Thanksgiving day.) Anyway, this doe's offspring is a boer/alpine/saanen mix. That accounts for 2 more of the 13, so we're up to 8 now.

We also have 1 purebred Nubian doe. She is said to be a proven mother as well, but we don't know much about her. Someone who had her as a pet for years finally gave her to us when he got very ill and could no longer care for her. (He has since died so we can't even ask about her.) He did tell us that she had had a number of offspring and was a great milker. (Which is why he kept her when he sold off the rest of his herd when he first got sick.) So that's 9.

Then there is the doe offspring of our other purebred nubian who died last year. She was also bred (accidentally) with our promiscuous alpine/boer Cassanova so she is an alpine/boer/nubian mix. She looks Nubian - all floppy ears and Roman nose, and even has the Nubian habit of humming to herself. That's 10.

Then there are the 2 wethers (brothers) we rescued when their owner bothched the castration on one, and was going to "put him down" when it got so infected it turned to gangrene. We rushed him to a vet who operated and saved him just in time. We bought his brother so they wouldn't be loney since we had no other kids in the group at the time. They are supposed to be pure Boer - and look it - but they are small for Boers and we are suspecting a pygmy jumped a fence at some point! That makes 12.

Finally there is Deeta - which means "lost one" in ancient Persian. She literally came walking out of the woods one day and made herself at home. She was only about 3 months old. We never did figure out where she came from. We know for a fact that she is a pygmy goat because as a 2 year old she is still barely as big as a medium sized dog, but she has markings like an alpine or some other alpine/toggenberg cross. (She also has those little pendant things that hang down from her cheeks - I forget what they're called.) She is a fiesty little thing - very cute and independent! So there you have number 13.

All of the does are fairly young (one is 7, four are 6 years old, and one is about 2) and never bred except for the 3 older females (their mothers) who range from probably 12 to 14 years old. The males are all under 7.

So... anyone interested in a starter herd for free? PM me please!

Oh... I also have pictures I can post if anyone is interested.

The only problem I see with this situation is that goats are Livestock, and not regarded as pets to most people. Not to be harsh, but after a doe becomes too old to be productive, it is normally put down, eaten, sold, etc. Wethers are generally eaten except for the lucky few who find pet homes or cart/pack homes. Alot of ''pet' homes for livestock, since they don't have health standards or need to impress anybody into buying thier stock, don't reaserch the care or health of goats. Therefore the pet goats will often die of malnutrition, 'accidental' mistreatment, or lack of vet care, mostly because the owner 'didn't know'. Sad, but true. Oftentimes goats that are headed to the table are kept in better health than pet goats.
It will be very, very, very hard to find a home like what you desire. Old, unproductive does, several never-been-bred does, a couple bucks, a couple wethers... And all to be kept togeather, not eaten, some unbreedable.Be wary of everybody wanting them for pets, because I can see someone saying one thing, and doing another with them. :( If you truly do find a good pet home, I will be very, very happy for you. But it will be hard. Good luck with them, and I do hope you find them all a good home. :)

I would take them in a heartbeat if you lived closer. And I assure you they would be pets or milkers...no dinner!

Where in MO are you?

My advice is to get in touch with the Humane Society, probably the state headquaters would be best. They do have farms that are dedicated to keeping various farm animals until they die of old age. I do not know of any in Missouri but I bet they are there, or nearby. I learned about this from watching Animal Planets, Animal Cops. There are safe havens for farm critters in Michigan, New York, Texas, and California. I suppose there would be some around there too. All it takes is an internet search and some phone calls. Good luck with your endeavor.

Just did a quick google search:

http://www.mypetnanny.info/pd/Rescues/MO.htm#Farm Animals

Hope that helps you out. I'd love to take them but, well, I live in the burbs.

Sorry you're forced to part with your pets. :(

Darn! If we were moved already, your goats are *exactly* what I'd be looking for to base a new herd (no elitist here ;) I prefer character over pedigrees)! But it's going to be another two or three months before we're moved, so good luck finding them a new home.

Have you thought about "renting" them out to people who need brush control?
That way you keep ownership, making sure thier taken care of, and they get fed cheaply.

Buffy, that seems like a really good idea!

Let me see if I can answer some of these questions and comments - hopefully I won't miss anything.

First, we live near Branson, MO (over in Cedarcreek which is about 25 minutes east, not too far from Forsyth).

Second, Yes I know people can say one thing and do another. That exact situation happenend to my sister when she was a teenager. She ran a small petting zoo out at Dogpatch in AR when it was still in operation a million years ago. When it closed, she didn't have a place for the goats so she gave them to someone with a farm on the stipulation that they could not be eaten. You guessed it - first time she went to visit them to see how they were doing, they were packed in a freezer!!! She is 40 now and still chokes up when she talks about it. So to make sure that doesn't happen, we plan to have papers drawn up stating that not only can the goats not be sold, seperated, or eaten, but if or when the new owners should decide they need to get rid of the goats, they must return them to us. If for any reason we can't take them ourselves, we will be responsible for finding them another home.

Third, my husband and I are former zookeepers so we do know quite a bit about all sorts of animals - goats included - and aren't likely to kill our goats from ignorance or accident. I won't say that these are the most remarkable examples of their breed out there, but they are all healthy and very well nourished. Probably better nourished in fact than most goats from professional herds - primarily because we feed them what nature intended for them to eat - browse. Goats are much more closely related to deer than to cows. They do not do well on pasture or hay because their digestive system is designed to utilize tree bark, leaves, buds, brush, etc. In fact, they even have a symbiotic relationship with a particular variety of lichen that grows on oak trees. (Many a sick goat & newborn kid has been sucessfully treated for stomachache with oak bark tea, and that is not just an old wives tale!) I don't think many people who raise goats for sale even know that.

As far as being productive... "production" as a term has no real meaning if you're talking about pets - or even if your version includes such things as brush control. Since goats control brush just by eating it, and since eating is (presumably) something they will do unto death, I'd say they have productive lives ahead of them until that day - which in any case is probably not going to be very soon since goats are relatively long-lived. Besides, anyone who only sees them as "Livestock", or finds taking them and keeping them together a problem, need not bother. (I'm not twisting any arms here!) People who think animals are only useful when they are producing something for humans are missing out on a fundamental point of life. You can't put a monetary or "production" value on the bond that develops between any two living creatures who interact and share space with one another - particularly with animals as intelligent and sensitive as goats. That is why we are being so careful to find a way to keep them together.

And thanks for the link, SunsetSonata - I will check it out.

I think I got to everything - let me know if I left anything out or you have other comments/questions. I will upload some photos to my storage place so I can post them here tomorrow.

I hope that you find a loving home for your goats. Sounds lke you are a very caring person and hopefully they will go to someone who feels the same way! :)

Not to be mean, but I really doubt you are going to find someone that will sign papers like you want.

My goats do great on pasture, hay, & grain. I have over 20 goats now.

Like it or not they ARE livestock. Any livestock can make great pets, but they are still livestock. There aren't many people that can afford to feed them & get nothing in return. And the person that takes them could sign the papers & turn around & tell you they died & you'd never know if that's what happened. I had someone give me a purebred buck. I went out just a few days ago & he was laying there dead. It happens. BUT, they could tell you that & the thing could be dead in their freezer. THey wouldn't be lying, it really did die. They just won't tell you how it died. So just because papers are signed doesn't mean they will do what they say.

I personally hate when people are giving away animals but they have a million stipulations attached to them. I will give homes to any animals that come along, but if something comes up & they do not work out I don't like having to ask someone else if I can sell, give away, or whatever the animals in question. Once you give something away, that should be the end of it. If you are that concerned you should try harder to find a way to keep them yourself. It would be way harder on them to continue to be moved from home to home than it would if someone humanely killed & ate them.

Just my 2 cents & not meant to make you mad.

I would love to take them, you're only about an hour away, my dad would die however.

You can't put a monetary or "production" value on the bond that develops between any two living creatures who interact and share space with one another - particularly with animals as intelligent and sensitive as goats.
.................................................. ............

Sure you can, YOU put a monetary value on the bond you have with these goats....nothing, free. And it nearly ranges in the cruel catagory when instead of putting down aged does you are going to stress them with the move into a new home. Sorry but rehomed pets rarely find forever homes, let alone livestock, and anyone who has really done rescue knows that intact livestock should never be rehomed to a pet house. And anyone who has been in goats for 5 minutes knows that unproductive does, wethers and old bucks always end up in free sales, or worse picked up by the Sheriff, where in my area I have to deal with this mess.


You can no longer afford to care for goats who live on browse? Maybe because even you have to buy hay, grain, wormer JUST like us unnatural production homes? Give me a break. You love your goats more than me because my girls show and milk for a living? Yet when an older doe lives out her life here she is put down, and you give them away for free? Who is the one who is "missing out on a fundamental point of life" honey it's your goats who are!

I was fine with you wanting to ditch these goats onto someone else in your original post while trying to maintain what a wonderful livestock owner you were, until your last post. Vicki

Original poster:

I was a little interested at first, but not after their last post. That's a lot of "red tape" for free goats!

LOL Make mine tea!

I don't understand the personal attacks. She just wants to find a home for the entire herd where they will be well treated. Lots of people keep goats for pets.

What's wrong with that?

Deborah-
I understand you are attached to these animals. I hope you are able to find someone who can offer them a great home. One thing you may want to consider is somtimes the kindest gesture we can do for an older animal is to put it down, so it would be difficult for anybody to promise they would let these goats live indefintely, as folks like me hate to see things in pain! I owned a horse once that had to be put down, and it was horribly upsetting, but an act of kindness (I like to believe).

Other posters-On another note...reading this thread and the reponses reminded me of something the same vein, but alittle different...
I called about some cross does in the newspaper, and the seller was retiring some does from milking and wanted a contract that I wouldn't eat them or breed them AND she wanted $150 each! When I said I wasn't interested politely, she asked what I was looking for, and I told her that I mainly breed for meat. Anyways, she totally flipped out on me, and went on-and-on about how cruel folks are that are willing to sell animalls for meat and she lost it competely about my kids knowing the goats were going for meat. I am still in shock about how rude she was to me! So, this woman on the phone milked does for years and wanted to retire them under her conditons and for a price. I could only think how completely spoiled my animals are...and how silly it is to assume meat breeders don't care about their animals.

I purchased my first 2 goats 2 years ago. they are not registered. I have learned alot along the way, and I'm sure my goats didn't get the best care in the begining while I was sorting through all the info, both true and untrue, out there. in the beginning I wanted them for brush control and pets, and with the idea that these were goats for me to learn the ropes on before I went and spent gobs of money on a nice milker. if you are lucky you can find someone in the position I was in for your goats, but I think once an animal is given or sold to someone it is theirs to do with as they wish. what if one breaks its leg? can you make use of it and put it in the freezer or are the new owners expected to cough up big bucks t try to save it? there are too many unknowns in the future to have too many stipulations, you can't cover all the scenarios.

there is a local exotic rescue here who has quite a few goats. their feet are curled up and over and are horribly mishappen, many of them obviously have some difficulty getting around. I think of rescue groups that take in dogs only to live years in a kennel. rescue groups often have the resources to save the physical life of animals but the amimals often have still lost there life.

Yep. On my farm, I try my best to give my livestock a very happy life, and then they die a very merciful death....more than most humans on the planet get. They fill my heart with love and they fill my freezer with meat. And not to be rude at all, but this thread is filled with a lot of crazy talk.

Just pretend she said "dogs" instead of "goats". Everyone knows goats are very smart, very personable, and to some people they are pets just like dogs. Imagine if you had to get rid of your pet dog--not because you didn't want it anymore, and not because it was a bad dog, but because for whatever reason you just couldn't afford to feed it anymore and you didn't want it to be neglected. Now, in that case, it may turn out that the most humane thing to do would be to euthanize the dog. But before you did that, wouldn't you at least try to find it a home where it would be treated as well as you had always treated it? Wouldn't you cast a wide net, ask around, and hope someone nice would be looking for a dog like yours? Wouldn't you hope that the new person wouldn't lie to you about giving the dog a forever home, and instead just keep it nicely for a few weeks or months or whatever and then kill it and feed it to the hogs or something? Now, this isn't a huge concern with dogs, because most people aren't in the habit of killing dogs for food, but it is a concern with goats. Many animal rescues make adopters sign agreements that they will never sell the dog, and will return it to the shelter if they need to part with it--so what Deborah is suggesting certainly isn't unusual. I had to sign such a statement for the dog and the rabbit I adopted from humane societies. Yes, I know a lot of you hate those agreements, but these people are just trying to do the best they can for the animal in a world where many people see animals as disposable, or worse. Maybe the contracts do more harm than good, and maybe they don't, but it's certainly understandable that someone adopting out a pet would like the assurance that a contract would help to provide.

Maybe Deborah won't be able to find the home she is looking for for her pet goats--but I don't see why all of the negative reactions are necessary. I wish her and her pets good luck.

DQ & Tex you are right on.

If you find some one to take your goats take their word and DON'T look back. Don't mess with the paperwork it will just be a hasle to you & if their word is no good they will find a way around it!!!

I agree that placing the whole herd together is going to be tough. Very tough. Even placing one alone with these conditions wouldn't be easy. I just wouldn't give her such a hard time for trying. If a person doesn't want her pet goats, they certainly don't have to take them, but she's probably feeling miserable enough without a lot of people telling her that she should either kill them or give them to someone else who will. It would be different if she said "I'm planning on getting 12 pet goats tomorrow, and if ever I can't feed them, I'll just find some kind soul to adopt them as pets." Then all of the doses of "reality" might help. But she's already in this situation, and it sounds to me like she's doing the best she can.

As for all the "goats are livestock" stuff--I don't see how one can dispute that it's all in the eye of the beholder. In some countries, people eat cats, dogs, and horses. In the US, those species are most frequently pets. These goats are pets to Deborah, and she's treating them as such. With pets, you generally try to find them pet homes before euthanizing them or sending them to a kill buyer. She apparently wasn't planning to use them for "business", and it sounds as if she has "gone under"--but that's no different than someone who took on 12 pet dogs and eventually found they couldn't feed them all. I feel for her and her pets, and I wish them good luck.

What we need here is some MORE crazy talk!!!! Just kidding, as usual. Well said, TEX

Well, I know what you mean, but I hope you are wrong. Just this once, you know. :angel:

Me too. I wouldn't limit it to dogs, though. I'm a hopeless sucker for almost anything furry and friendly. If it weren't for my "voice of reason" fiance, I'd, well, it's probably better not to think about it.... :p

True, I get what you mean. But if the goats are sick/injured and it is beyond either of their pocketbooks to treat, I assume that they might be more comfortable and feel more justified in euthanizing the animals at that point. Don't know if my assumption is right, but that's a calculation frequently made with pets... :(

Anyway, not looking to argue, really--I just wanted to toss in a little support for Deborah as she's reaching out for help in a tough time.

Why would anyone want to keep a goat alive who has lost all her teeth and dies a slow death through starvation? I've got one right now who is holding her own with no teeth but it is a matter of time before she will seriously slip in health and that would be a terrible way to watch a 'pet' die.

FIRST... I have actually gotten an incredible number of offers for my goats via private emails. So... despite all nay-sayers, there are people out there who at least [B]say they will honor what I am requesting.

SECOND... I truly appreciate ALL of the comments I am getting here. I sincerely mean that because I don't think any of you know how hard putting this post up in the first place was. I LOVE these goats!!!

We made less than $10,000 last year. It costs us $300 a month to feed them in winter. (We take them out for 2 hours each day to browse in summer so it only costs us about $60 a month in grain - plus the occasional bale of hay @$8 per bale in late spring through fall) to feed them. We also have 11 dogs (including 4 new babies we rescued - I am trying to find homes for them if anyone is interested) and 5 cats, 2 iguanas and 40 chickens. We have them because we rescued them from abusive situations or they were born here due to our incredible stupidity in not realizing that a 5 month old male goat could sire an entire herd overnight! We pay our bills and buy animal food and if we are VERY LUCKY have about $150 left over to buy our food for the month. How many of you live on a budget like that?!

Yes, you are right in thinking we are crazy, and that we should never have gotten in this predictament in the first place. We did however. Everybody makes mistakes and ours was that we cared too much. We realize that there are people out there who put themselves and their livelihood first - they will probably survive longer than we will. We KNOW that we are hopelessly sentimental and unrealistic. We will probably die of stress related illness or starvation soon. But...

I AM NOT ASKING THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO MAKE A BUCK FROM A BUCK TO ADOPT MY BABIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just want someone who gives a ---- to help me!!! I need a HOME for these poor creatures who have never asked for anything except to be treated like living breathing creatures who FEEL and LOVE and CARE and NEED. If you think MEAT when you think GOAT - don't bother. If you think MILK or BRUSH CONTROL you may be interested.

I don't need controversy - save it, please.

I only want to know that these sweet, innocent beings I have loved for so long (and love still) will go to a place where someone who is more financially fortunate than I am will care for them as they deserve. I am not even asking them to do the same for whatever offspring they may produce (although that pains me more than you can know) only that these children of mine - YES that is how I think of them!!! - will be safe.

Anyway, I cried when I read your posts fishead, hisenthlay, and southerngurl. Thank you all from the bottom of my heart. You understand.

The rest of you (in varying degrees) are all well wishers and mean well. I thank you too, but I don't think you understand. I am not looking for a perfect solution - perfection is an ideal that is never reached. I am looking for a realistic one that incorporates some of my deepest feelings. I know that goats get sick - my favorite goat died on Thanksgiving day (go back and look at the goat archives if you don't believe me - I asked for help on that one!). I also know that things change and that the best of intentions often go awry, and that I can't predict everything - let alone expect someone else to. I just want someone to say that they will do their best to love these guys - feed them - care for them - and not kill them or sell them. That's all. If you don't want to do that or can't do that - go read another thread. I don't need YOU! I only ask the people who think that they might be able to help to do so.

There is no force here. No obligation. Do you want to care for a bunch of loved pet goats or don't you? :shrug: It's simple and it shouldn't make anyone angry. The paperwork is for them, and for you, as well as for me. I will accept the burden back if you can't handle it. I am not telling you how to manage your herd or what to do with the offspring. I am only begging you to be kind. Is that so wrong?

harplade, None of my goats have lost all their teeth and are slowly starving to death. If they were they would be humanely euthanized. That was an unecessarily bizarre and unkind comment.

were just getting on goats so i might be stupid on this one but she gets milk from 2 that were never bred :shrug:

Deborah

I had planned to not wade in but just can't keep my big mouth shut. I have done rescue for years - everything from horses to ducks. There are people who will agree to take your animals, keep them together and not eat them. I have certainly been one of them and were I closer to you I would consider picking them up - at my expense etc. etc. However I would not sign the papers you are asking for (which would be of dubious legal standing anyway unless you're going to pay a lawyer to draft them properly, have them notarized etc.) because once I take custody of your goats I'm responsible for them. If they get out and destroy someone's garden - I'm the one paying for that, if they're injured or sick I'm the one who needs to decide what to do and pay for it. I'm not going to phone someone at 4 am to say "the goat's got a broken leg. come and get the herd" because that's neither fair nor realistic. I did have to shoot a rescue horse who collapsed (old age and bad lungs). I did tell the previous owner but I certainly didn't ask permission - I was the one out there in my pjs who had to pull the trigger on a beautiful old girl.

I suspect that is the part that most people are reacting to. There's lots of requests for rescues and most people make good faith agreements. There's nothing wrong with that - as long as it's tempered with a dose of realism. It's not that people don't "give a ----" or that they're just thinking about making a buck it's that they think what you are asking is over the top. If you think about it I suspect you can find a more "middle ground" solution.

I wish you success in this journey and hope that your financial situation turns around.

Precocious milkers are common in some breeds. They develop an udder and are milkable before they are ever bred. I had a lamancha do it, nice udder too, and just recently saw an alpine mix that was giving almost a gal a day, never bred.

well i learned someting

WOW!!!!! I have 21 goats, and they are well cared for, and I don't even come close to $300/month to feed them. They get the best hay I can find, and alfalfa pellets and some grain. And, I consider my goats to be a little fat most of the time.

I have 20 goats. I go through a square bale every day in the outside feeder, and another half in flakes in individual pens. I pay 2.50 a bale, and I know that's cheap. That's 4.00 a day, for one and a half bales, just for hay = $120 for hay a month.

Alfalfa pellets, 3 lbs per producing/preg doe/growing doe, 15 does X 3 = 45lb a day, and because I buy in bulk, this averages about $5 a day = $150 for pellets a month

Grain feed, only feeding 10 does grain, about a lb a day, 10lbs per day (6.50 per 50lbs)
6 bags a month, $39 for grain, and I usually buy more than 6 bags, more like 9 or 10

Minerals - $18 per 50 lb bag, go through 2 bags a month, $36

Average feed bill for keeping 20 well maintained goats = $345, and I know I'm paying considerable less per month than others who are facing feed shortages and lots of high prices. How you do it for "not close to that" is surprising to me.

This doesn't count misc medications I may use per month, and this month I put in online orders for drenches, meds, syringes, new hoof clippers, new drench gun, copper bolus, misc gel caps, lots and lots of preparing for kidding stuff, total orders to livestock catalog places was $400

I was thinking the same thing. Although I get a dela on my hay.

I really do wish her luck finding them a home, but like another poster said, I think the papers she wants to be signed is unrealistic. And if you can't afford to care for them now, what makes you think you could take them back in the future & care for them? As far as them being bonded & not wanting to separate them, they would adjust to a new herd life. I don't sell all of my goats to the same people & they go to their new homes & adjust in their new herd just fine. If you need to place them that bad, you really should look into letting them go as pairs instead of the whole herd together. You might have better luck. Not many people want to take on an entire herd at once. You know the financial reasons for that. Especially if they are older & some are unbreedable. Not many people can afford to feed that many pets.

I have to agree with considering separating the herd, send out together the ones who have bonded with each other the most, thats a lot of pet goats for one person to afford, they might get better care in smaller numbers. I know thats not what you wanted, but do think about it.

I have a sad story about what people say and what they do, I'd given one of my first mini-rex does to a friend of mine. She had excellant lines, an incredible temperament, and was an awesome mother. She was also a color that I had decided not to do, and she was getting older and had given me some very nice babies. My friends wanted her, so I gave her to them, with the understanding verbally that they would breed her once or twice, keep offspring then retire her and keep her as a pet. I stressed that I would take her back at any time, just bring her over. They had her perhaps 8 months, bred her back to back over and over, and then told me that they had found her dead when they went out to breed her again. Everything we'd talked about with this rabbit just went right out of their heads, and they did what they wanted with her, and they were supposed to be my friends. I've since gotten back another rabbit I'd given them, tried to get another one, and am refusing to breed any of their does for them again. I've stepped back and reviewed my friendship with them, and have pulled back. My point is that any agreements, whether verbally or on paper, bound by friendship or not often go by the wayside. Only way to be certain of their fate is to keep them yourself, or put them down. I'm very unhappy that this favored rabbit was bred into the ground, I wish I'd put her in a pet only home, or culled her, that would have been kinder I think. Good luck to you.

Since goats form such strong family bonds, perhaps they could be separated by family groups...mother and daughters together, sisters with sisters etc. This would keep the stress level way down for both you and the goats and make it much easier to place them.

[QUOTE=Deborah Stephenson]


We made less than $10,000 last year.

We pay our bills and buy animal food and if we are VERY LUCKY have about $150 left over to buy our food for the month. How many of you live on a budget like that?[QUOTE=Deborah Stephenson]


...uh, me. So this month, I am killing the yard birds and eating GOAT meat out of the freezer....and anticipating the birth of many kids. I went from an RN with a terrifc paycheck to a disability check smaller than your annual income because of meds i must take that prevent me from drivng a car or working outside the home. This month, far less the $150. a month to live on....so i am selling my PET goats. I can sympathize and empathize. My goats eat better than i do and receive better health care. But with the goats here, i know i will always have milk and meat...it is all quite comforting....goats bring happiness on many levels.

So know that although I, and perhaps others, who may seem harsh, have simply been there, done that, or have a life-style that demands confrontation with life's harsh truths.

[QUOTE=TexCountryWoman][QUOTE=Deborah Stephenson]


We made less than $10,000 last year.

We pay our bills and buy animal food and if we are VERY LUCKY have about $150 left over to buy our food for the month. How many of you live on a budget like that?Thank you. I do not live in your situation, but I can empathize. I admire that you're willing to do what you need to do, and that you know your limitations. I know there are lots of people on these boards who live on very limited incomes, but doing for oneself and trying to be self sufficient is what it's all about. I wish more people would get good homes for their animals when they know they can't take care of them. Or eat them. :) I'd rather hear about a goat in the freezer than one who has a bunch of silly non binding legalistic stipulations attached to it.

Doesn't anyone ever actual READ what people say to each other?

All I was asking - and I'm starting to be really sorry I did! - is whether someone who maybe had ideas of building a homestead herd for their own use would be willing to agree to take my herd and keep them together until they died a natural death . In exchange, they would get an excellent brush control crew, and a chance to get some kids from them. (These are not all a bunch of old goats - as some of you keep saying for some strange reason). Most, if not all, of the does are still perfectly capable of producing healthy offspring. That would be the payback - I was not, and I am not asking for charity!

I'm baffled by why so many of you have jumped on me over this, and seem to assume that I expect these guys to be treated like pampered pets or that I would be so unreasonable as to require someone to notify me every time one of them got a sniffle!!! I fully expected that they would take their place in an exisiting herd or as a starter herd for someone who didn't mind that they weren't show quality. I also expected that whoever took them would make any decisions about their health and welfare based on whatever was going on in their life at the time. My ONLY stipulations were that they never be killed or sold, and if for some reason whoever took them found they could no longer keep them, (things happen) that they contact me so I could take them back or find them another situation.

I guess people just get scared when someone says "paperwork". All that I had in mind was a simple statement something like "I promise that unless it becomes necessary to euthanize due to severe illness or injury, I will not kill any of these goats . I further promise not to sell them for any reason. And finally, if for any reason - whether because of divorce, financial hardship, a move, etc - I find it impossible to continue with this agreement, I will notify the previous owner and arrange to have the goats returned to her." That's it. As long as you are caring for them and not eating or selling them, they are yours.

Has anyone here ever heard of a "permanent loan"? It is done in zoos all the time, and since I am an ex-zookeeper, that is what occurred to me with this. This is how it works. One zoo agrees to take an animal (usually to build genetic diversity in breeding stock for the receiving zoo, and to get rid of excess animals at the donor zoo) and feed/house it in exchange for the offspring produced. It remains the official property of the originating zoo, but except in very rare cases NEVER actually goes back there. A win/win situation. Unfortunately, what I thought was a reasonable option to insure that someone wouldn't just agree to take these guys and promptly have them all slaughtered, apparently seems unreasonable to most of you. I'm not sure why. I mean, if you are sincere that you won't sell or kill them, then what difference does it make if you sign an agreement to that effect? Not signing it kind of says to me that maybe you are thinking of not honoring the agreement... otherwise why should you mind? It protects you too! As a new owner (and maybe someone who has always wanted goats but isn't really sure how well they will do with them) you won't have to be afraid of a situation where you are stuck with a herd you don't want if things don't work out as planned. I was just trying to make it as "risk free" for everyone as possible. That's all.

Beyond that, I have to say I resent some of the more personal insinuations, and what amount to not-so-subtle attacks on my character.

TexCountryWoman - I am sorry for your situation and I can empathize completely with you, but you seem to think that because I am trying to find a home for my goats instead of eating them, that I am somehow not living a self-sufficient lifestyle or trying to take care of myself and family "properly". (And DocM - you go even further with your statement...
Not that I need to justify myself to you or anyone else, but just so you know that you aren't exactly dealing with a welfare case here... My husband and I have been living a 90% self-sufficient lifestyle for about 15 years now. We still haul all our water for bathing, drinking, washing, etc. from our well (which we set all the pipe for ourselves - with hand tools and a jury-rigged tripod over the hole. Its 445' deep!) We use a composting toilet; maintain a year round garden (where most of our food originates); can and dry food for winter; forage for wild foods year round; keep chickens for eggs; buy used clothing from thrift stores; heat and cook with wood which we cut and haul ourselves; make our own tools; build everything we need (including our house) ourselves; and pretty much do anything and everything else we need done. That we do not want to eat our goats because #1 we love them, and #2 we are vegetarians (have been for about 25 years) does not make us lesser beings. You don't know me, and you have no right to pass judgement on me or to second guess my reasons for doing what I do.

None of you is being forced to take on any goats that you don't want. I'm not even asking you to read my post. You chose to read it, and if you don't want the goats or think the terms unfair, you don't need to think about it again. Why don't you let someone who IS interested have a chance to decide for themselves whether they are interested and go read a thread that is more to your liking?

As for seperating the herd into family groups. Yes, I have considered that, but would like to see if I can get a home for all of them together first.

I also considered the "renting for brush control" option awhile back, but after I submitted a post a few months ago asking people here what they thought of it, or whether anyone here did that with their goats - and didn't get a single reply - I assumed people would not be interested. I know its done out west a lot, but there are so many people here in this area who already have goats that I don't think it would be a realistic option. Besides, we don't have a trailer to haul them to anyone's place or the money for liability insurance that would probably be required (in case they ate someone's prize roses are something!).

This has not been a spur of the moment decision or whim. For the last couple of years we have tried to think of any way possible to afford to keep them, and probably will still - considering the reception I got here when I was stupid enough to ask for help. Its only that food prices are going so high - and predicted to rise further - that we are truly faced with the prospect of being unable to buy the hay and grain they need. (And by the way, for those of you trying to calculate how much I was exaggerating the food bill, we pay $8 per/ 2-string bale for grass hay that isn't even all that good quality, and sometimes as much as $9 per bale for alfalfa or mixed hay. They eat 1 bale per day when weather is cold, and 1/2 to 3/4 a bale otherwise. Grain runs from $6.50 to $7 per bag where we're at. They go through about 3 bags per week. Then there are minerals and supplements, and occassional medications. You figure it out.) If worse comes to worse, we would rather kill them ourselves than let someone else do it.

So... that's all I have to say. If there is anyone out there who can still seperate out what I actually proposed in the beginning from all this accumulated flack, and see that this could be a good thing for all concerned, please contact me.