I need a hug!!

shereen · #21 02/07/07, 04:13 PM

gosh, i'm so so sorry this is happening to you. you're doing much better than i would be. hopefully this is the only time you'll ever have to deal with this-
did you happen to see these posts?

OH MY GOSH!!!-Flixweed in year 3!!

Flixweed effects (graphic)

yes please post the pics- you might want to add a warning in the topic title though.

i really hope it gets better from here.
shereen

circlevranch · #22 02/08/07, 07:33 AM

I'm really sorry to hear about all the bad luck you've been haveing. It sounds like its just been one thing after the next with your new herd. I know how discouraged you must be by now but things will get better.
The mom that rejected her baby is something to be expected in first time moms. Try putting her and the new baby is a seperate pen and work with her it may take holding the mom so the baby can nurse. Sometimes the new moms just need to be showed what the back end is for they're new to this also. I've had good luck working with first time moms but I've also ended up with bottle babies too. If after working with the mom and baby and she still rejects it just milk her and bottle feed the new baby. I've raised goats for a long time now and the chances of getting another mom to foster the baby onto is really slim but it has happened. I know you were hopeing for lots of twins but first time moms are noted for only haveing singles. Now this isn't all bad either it gives them a chance to experience giveing birth and raiseing there baby haveing twins could only double your problems.
I'm sure by now you've learned that good feeding and management program goes a long way its to bad you've had to expereince this. For now just do the best you can with what you have to work with and chalk it up to experience. Good Luck and tell yourself next year will be much better.

dezeeuwgoats · #23 02/08/07, 08:42 AM

Hang in there! It WILL get better - how can it not, with how much you care? Just remember this isn't a reflection upon you - everyone's right - you inherited a problem. I have no doubts you will take care of it and give your goats the best possible future. You've had a rough, discouraging go of it - and all of us here feel for, and are rooting for you!

Niki

goatmarm · #24 02/08/07, 10:54 AM

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Tam319 · #25 02/08/07, 03:45 PM

Hi all,

Well, we've had a really rough day!

We lost 4 more kids (two sets of twins) yesterday. Not good. They appear full term, and in each batch one twin had full haircoat and the other was naked. In all cases the goats had goiters.

Vet was out this morning and did full necropsy on all babies. He believes it is nutritional (iodine deficiency) and is sending away samples. He is encouraging us to treat this as an iodine deficiency until we have definitive results. Its not that uncommon in our area and nearly every producer I've spoken to has personal experience or knows someone who has dealt with goiter/iodine deficiency. Just one of those things in our area, I suppose. We feed hay 8 months of the year due to the snow and cold of being in Canada so I don't if areas where animals have access to fresh foods are less prone?? We grow our own hay and haven't had any trouble with noxious weeds or the brassica species in the 15+ years we've been growing hay, cattle and our pet pygmy goats. The vet also mentioned that this area is not prone to the type of goiterogens necessary to cause a problem like this.

We are going to move the remaining 11 does into the barn away from the rest of the herd and keep an eye on them. I am praying hard for some nice, healthy kids! He checked over the live babies we already have and a few of them have small goiters starting up. The vet is encouraging us to treat them with a topical iodine solution to help clear that up.

We will bag up the next dead kid w/placenta (we haven't gotten to the placenta before the Maremma yet!) to send away to be sure its not something else. We are planning to test for brucellosis, etc. about 14 days post abortion as that is apparently when titer levels peak in doe's blood.

The vet was also concerned that the problem has been compounded with the stress of the move, change of feed, etc. Even though we've put them on good feed it is still a change.

This is a real kick in the pants, that is for sure!! The breeder we bought them from has run a closed herd and been breeding for many years. He's getting out of the goats to relocate so perhaps he was just "burnt out" near the end and not providing the best of care. I really did think we were homefree and getting a good herd of goats. Even the vet remarked that they are in great body condition and look healthy, aside from the goiterous kids

Thanks for all of the kind words!

Tam319 · #26 02/08/07, 04:09 PM

Here's the picture of one of the goiter kids. I posted the link so you can see it if you like, yet not have to look at it if you are grossed out

Goiter Kid Picture

Laura Workman · #27 02/08/07, 04:21 PM

I just read that 100g of dried hijiki or 15g of dried kombu or kelp provides one year's supply of iodine for one person. Can you maybe get your does to eat some kelp? If it's like selenium, activity is pretty quick, and maybe you could save some of the kids yet to be born.

Here's the link if you're interested: http://www.vegansociety.com/html/foo...ion/iodine.php .

Sher · #28 02/08/07, 05:12 PM

Just wanted to caution people on the use of kelp and iodine supplements. As if your goat gets too much...they can have the same symptoms of goiters. Just wanted you all to be aware and be cautious..or better yet..have a vet check to see if you need iodine supplementation.

Tam319 · #29 02/09/07, 12:10 AM

Yes! Very good point about too much iodine causing similar symptoms and goiters! The vet mentioned that today. We have kelp out for our does but he mentioned that the kids might get into it and get too much. Oh boy, you just can't win, eh? Its such a fine balance.

We treated the goats tonight as per the vet's instructions...iodine on the underside of the doe's tails and rubbed some on the throat area of each kid. Looks like a chainsaw massacre with that red stuff everywhere! We also got all 11 remaining preggers does separated from everyone else and in the barn so we can watch them closely and hopefully things will go better.

Well our little orphaned guy took a turn for the worse. He was down, cold, unable to suck, totally limp. DH brought him in the house and we tubed him. Two hours later he was able to suck from a bottle. I guess he's adopted us as it just didn't work with the foster mom. I took him back out to the barn and put him in the room with the wood stove. We'll bottle feed him every time we check the pregnant does. His foster mom must have known he was in that room because she was crying and bellering at the door. I took him out to her and he sucked a bit, but its way to cold to leave him with her (-20C). She can't keep him going in a stall so I don't think she'd stand a chance with him in the cold.

Poor little Phil. I guess we'll have ourselves a real sucky. Do you use storebought whole cow's milk?? I've been using goat milk replacer but want to get him off of it asap as I've heard it causes bloat. I really should round up one of the mama's who lost their kids and milk them out, but they aren't very tame and we don't have a good set up for milking unless you have a whole team of people to help hold her.

What a wild adventure we're on.

Laura Workman · #30 02/09/07, 12:50 AM

Yes, storebought whole cow's milk. I don't know, but it seems to me that if my goats needed some iodine, I'd feed it to them, not rub it on them. And if the vet thinks they may have had too much iodine, then why is he rubbing it on them? It almost kind of sounds like the vet is clueless and is going for the placebo effect. I hope it works for you.

Sher · #31 02/09/07, 08:16 AM

I'm guessing the vet won't be positive until the blood work gets back in. Plus..its different with this bunch being new to Tam and someone else having fed them all up to this point.

I read to paint the inner back thighs of a pregnant doe once a week for the last six weeks if you were having an iodine deficiency problem. The hope is that the kids will get enough absorbed to get them through the crisis and then the owner can supp. them as needed.

There's more than flixweed that will strip the iodine out of your goats. And depending on your goats condition (speaking of levels of minerals, etc in goat), if you had them on a good mineral supp. that has iodine, fed them kelp, and or iodine blocks..you can see that if you had a "normal" minerally balanced doe..she could get too much iodine.

This is used in people also. I know I'm probably not the only one who has been tested. They paint this iodine on you and tell you to write down how many hours it takes to disappear. For me it was like ten to 15 min. My mom had hers done at the same time...she still had a faint spot the next day.

This is a good way to see how bad off these last does to kid are..by how quickly they absorb the iodine through their skin..into their kids..

I just didn't want a bunch of people who live where there is no shortage supp. heavily and then get into trouble from too much of a good thing. Hope this helps.

Laura Workman · #32 02/09/07, 10:08 AM

Wow! Interesting about the skin absorption thing! I was just remembering when I sprayed iodine on my horse's neck and rubbed it in. It burned the snot out of her skin, and my hand. Is the absorbing iodine some special kind that doesn't burn?

Tam319 · #33 02/09/07, 10:41 AM

The vet told us to use iodine solution as it will not burn the skin. Anything with alcohol in it will burn the skin and I've heard that tincture of iodine can cause caustic blisters in kids. The vet called back this morning and said given their history (poor nutrition, no loose mineral) he believes it is a deficiency and to continue with the kelp, topical iodine, etc. He did mention that these measures would not be recommended for healthy animals or anything w/o a deficiency of iodine.

I wonder how long it takes for this iodine therapy to take effect? We've got the 11 remaining does who are like ticking timebombs...I'm so scared to see what they are going to birth.

We lost our bottle baby this morning. I cried my eyes out.

I don't know what we could have done differently. We tubed him to get him going at 7 pm, then bottle fed him a little every 2 hours once he could suck and kept him warm. At 4 am his foster Mom was crying for him so I put him on her for a meal. He latched on right away and sucked for a long time. He was walking around and looking a lot better. After he ate I took him back into his little bed in the warm room. Next time we went out to feed he was gone. I really took this one hard because he was a little miracle baby who we worked so hard to save (warm bath, mouth to mouth, then later stomach tubed him and bottle fed). DH says it wasn't meant to be, but it still sucks, ya know??

That brings the dead count to 9, live count 12. I don't know how much more of this I can take.

Tam319 · #34 02/14/07, 05:36 PM

Just got the vet results so I thought I'd post here to let you all know what we found out. We sent samples from 5 dead kids in and they came back with the diagnosis of congenital goiter due to iodine deficiency (nutritional). In a way I am relieved it is not something contagious. On the other hand, there is nothing we can do but ride it out. We have them on good minerals and free choice kelp, dairy ration and hay. We haven't had a live kid in the last week. We lost 3 kids yesterday born hairless with goiters. They live about 15 minutes, then die. Its so horrible. We sent another kid and full placenta in just to double check its not a contagious disease, but at this point the vet figures its not.

*sigh*

What an ordeal.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #35 02/14/07, 05:56 PM

We treated the goats tonight as per the vet's instructions...iodine on the underside of the doe's tails and rubbed some on the throat area of each kid.
.......................

I know your grasping at straws as what to do, but this treatment is very well documented not to work at all. The 7% iodine actually will burn the skin, making nothing absorb, why we use it to cauterize navel stumps and feet on newborns.

Edited this after reading the second page, I would be very skeptical of the gross findings, I would want to have bloodwork, many things will cause iodine defficency, if this was this pervasive in your area than all kids of all species would have this happen regularly. Yes skeptical. Iodine is such a minor supplement. Vicki

midkiffsjoy · #36 02/15/07, 12:29 AM

My first fresheners always have sungles and they are always bucklings, that was why I was so shocked that Olympia gave me twin doelings today. Almost wondering if the universe is now somehow unbalanced because of it! giggle.

Last month we had sleet and our bossy butt pushed all the other does out into it and Annie got down and lost her kid. Losing kids is so hard. With as many kids as youre having I wouldnt be surprised there were SOME lost, but the high percentage of bucklings is weird. grin. Just think....most of us start with one or two goats. You started with a whole herd!!! I give kudos to you!!! I know I couldnt have even attempted that!!!!

I'm sending you BIG MOMMA TO MOMMA HUGS!!!! But I'm also sending you admiration for your tenasidy.

I just read the second page too. DANM!!!! What a HELL of a start to your year!!!! How used to goats is your vet??? I like our vet but as far as goats go, he sucks. I'd rather take them to A&M. sigh. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you!!!

Tam319 · #37 02/15/07, 11:22 AM

Hi Vicki,

I have talked to several producers in this area and it is not that uncommon in goats. A few years ago one of the largest producers in the area lost most of their valuable purebred Boer kids. Apparently the S. African breeds (fast gaining Boers and Savannas) are more susceptible than others. I have also spoken to people who have had this happen in their newborn foals. My own saddle horse was hypothyroid and on treatment 2 years ago. I realize that iodine is a micromineral, yet every area has their own deficiencies and quirks as far as soil mineral content, feed composition, etc.

Our vet used to raise Boer goats and is from S. Africa himself. The testing and diagnosis came from an independent lab out of province.

As for the topical iodine...it was a long shot, but worth a try anyway. Iodine is cheap and in the off chance it did some good it was better than sitting back and feeling useless. Maybe it just made me feel better and made my goats look horrible

We did not use 7% but rather a water based iodine solution to reduce the risk of caustic burns. The bottom line is that there is pretty much nothing that can be done to save the unborn babies at this point so we are riding it out and hoping for better days.

Joy - LOL Yeah, I am nuts. I've raised pygmy goats for years and years just for fun so I did have a small herd here to start with. But I did jump in feet first with the whole schwack of Savannas. LOL

fishhead · #38 02/15/07, 11:36 AM

I'm sorry to hear about all this trouble. It's got to be tough to see the little guys in that shape. Is it possible to test the hay for the iodine level? Or add iodine to the soil?

Sher · #39 02/15/07, 11:51 AM

Hang in there Tam...you and your vet know what the problem is and you know how to correct it. It was just too late in the game for these girls. I was really hoping that they would have three or four weeks with the iodine before they started kidding.

It is so deceiving..the does look great..and then you get a shocker. We were lucky in that the little doe that had the deficient kids actually gave us a heads up .. so the others got enough in them before they kidded to help out. Heck not only the goats..but the horse and cattle literally went through blockS of iodine salt. You could tell when they had reached capacity..lol...they finally left the blocks alone.

I see alot of folks with goat kid problems on here..legs that are weak, seemingly fine then dead..off feed..then dead. The more I read...and I have read for hours on this..lol..and suggest everyone give it some time..there are alot of herds that are teetering..meaning they are deficient..but no one knows. I assume one load of deficient hay or feed could cause a blow out then..like yours did.

Makes it tough when you buy a herd like that. We did it with Dexters...rough learning curve..but well worth it in the end.

I pray you a quick turn around and many happy healthy babies next time. And I so hope that you keep us updated with this herd and this problem. There is alot of knowledge to be gained by what you are experiencing.

Tam319 · #40 02/15/07, 01:48 PM

Thanks Sher. It is rough. We had 3 more dead babies today. I went out to feed at 8 am, by 10 am two more does had kidded bringing the death count up to 15

The 12 live ones are doing smashingly though, and they make it worth it. They bounce around, bucking and playing.

The seller has been very good about this whole thing. He's even offered up purebred semen straws that he has in storage as compensation.

Only 7 more does to kid and hopefully we can put this all behind us