why do yall??

Let me ask you a question? Do you feed grain?

Oh this is what the international goat breeders registry has to say about disbuding.

(16) We recommend that you not disbud kids or dehorn older goats. Horns evolved over millions of years, to serve several specific needs goats have; and removing these is making serious, often life-threatening, changes in the goat's physiological and psychological makeup.

here is a link to the page. http://www.goat-idgr.com/Default.aspx?tabid=100

Other wise you leave a child unattended with livestock?

I don't buy horns being important, since most of mine are naturally polled.

7) There is in dairy goat breeds a definite and established link between the incidence of hornlessness and hermaphroditism; and this link is believed to also exist in miniature breeds.

Here's a better balanced article, written by people most goat owners respect.

http://fiascofarm.com/goats/disbudding.htm

The first line shows how they feel. YOU DON"T WANT A HORNED GOAT..........

Thats cra_. They think you must disdud. They just try to make it like your not burning or cutting the flesh to the bone. They try to make it happy. I know with my buck if you just barely touch his horns he feels it. So i figure its a very sensitive area.


Here is a pic of women raising goats as they should be.





I figure they are very important to the the people in the photo as it is their only source of milk.

***Know it all alert*****

One of you, I believe it was Patty0315 had asked about it being dangerous. No, Patty it isn't dangerous. They all get along as I had mentioned before and they run around and play out there. As a matter of fact, I was out there watching them enjoying this nice day we are having. They will be up at the top and one will get a notion to have a contest to see who will reach the barn first. It is so cute cuz each of them is tryin' to be faster than the next. I was laughin' noticing that Lil Boy (Baby Angels dad) was the fastest and he is only a yr. old, the youngest of that crew. I will soon be adding Nemo and Seppy in with them. Them two so badly want to be in with the others, but again, they don't go in with the older ones until they can defend against danger of any kind, not meaning from the other billys but predators, mostly.
I wasn't tryin' to stir anything with anyone, on here, (i.e. you DocM) I hope from after reading your reply, you weren't upset, I was only jokin' is why I mentioned don't take it personal. sorry if you did.
Stan, you have proved a very good point on the picture there of the goats with them women. I have heard many stories of that and friends too that have milk goats from the past that didn't disbud. I, just always thought of it to be painful and unnecessary. Like pulling your fingernails out.. Stan, animals have feelings too, I agree with you on that. Poor lil guys.

Not really I just disagree with people that feel it necessary to change what thousands of years of animal husbandry has shown.

Goats get along just fine with or without horns. As for a handle, I don't use horns, all my goats come to thier name at feeding time, and If I need to work with them I put them in the milkstand to trim hooves, give shots, etc. Most are catchable, too, when I need to. And If I need a handy leading tool, I've found that the beard works the best, not the horns. With horned goats, yes, you do have to have a few extra precautions, though I've NEVER had a problem with any of my horned goats, ever, even with little (human) kids. Goats seem to be very knowledgable of where thier horns are at all times. Mine, at least, have never even accidentally injured me, or any thing else. Not even each other. Ever. Young kids are easy to train (both human and goat) to respect thier horns.

Now, I also have two dehorned dairy does. And from now on, all kids sold will be dehorned at a young age because most of my miniature kids are sold as pets, mostly to children. And my alpine doe kids could go to show homes. Therefore, since most (HUMAN) kids don't listen and will persist on teaching the goat to "play", eventually resulting in a very heavy goat that wants to butt your kid because it thinks it's ok. And I can also see why you would want a dairy herd dehorned, because of damage to udders. It seems to me, though, that goats learn fast who the aggressive ones are and to stay away from them. At least that's the case in my small herd.

I've also been going back and forth with banding my horned goats. Especially my bucks, who are both horned. Then again, I've never had a problem with horns, except for when I had the wrong kind of fencing up and they would get stuck, but I've since fixed the fence to a kind they cannot get stuck in.

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Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.

There is *NO* straight across the board way goats "should" be raised. It differs from owner to owner, state to state, from country to country and from continent to continent. If it works for you...GREAT!! But don't tell me it "should" be done this way....simply because people on another continent in a totally different set of circumstances have done it that way successfully. Give me a break.....There is nothing wrong with disbudding, there is nothing wrong with leaving horns on. There is nothing wrong with running all your goats together in a *family*, there is nothing wrong with separating does from bucks and kids from mothers. There is nothing wrong with not castrating vs castrating. But you had just better be prepared to deal with the consequences of your decisions, regardless of what they are. My way works well for me. I don't say you "should" do it the same way simply because it works for me. I may not appreciate the way you handle your herd and vice versa, but unless they are sick from neglect or starving...its not wrong or right...its simply what works for you.

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Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Nubians & Lamanchas
www.ozarkjewels.net

"Remember, no man is a failure, who has friends" -Clarence

All I'm saying is these "milk" breeds have been raised as I stated above since they were domesticated (1000's of years). We in our infinite wisdom have decided to change the whole practice of goat husbandry (in the last 50 years). If It was best to keep them in a small pen and hand feed them it would have been done that way. I say let the animal thrive as it was designed. It removes most if not all of the husbandry issues.

For instance by feeding your young does lots of nutrient high feed instead of browse/hay. You worry that they will breed too early. So you must separate them from the bucks. This further breaks the thrift of the herd as they are happier together. The strongest male will stop most pushing among the females. But you threw him out. So you must disbud because they will bully each other.

Each overstep has a consequence.

[QUOTE=stanb999]For instance by feeding your young does lots of nutrient high feed instead of browse/hay. You worry that they will breed too early. So you must separate them from the bucks. This further breaks the thrift of the herd as they are happier together. The strongest male will stop most pushing among the females. But you threw him out. So you must disbud because they will bully each other.
QUOTE]

Well, I agree to disagree. I do think that letting goats browse is one of the best things we can do for them. That is why our herd free-ranges over about 70 acres of pasture/browse/woods. Not everyone is so fortunate.
As a point of interest, my two doelings that came in heat at three months of age had never had grain. And I do not disbudd for fear of the goats bullying each other. I disbudd for the reasons of personal preference, sellability, safety and handling ease. I have a *large* milk herd and believe me, horns won't work very well here. I have owned horned goats in the past. I won't do it again if at all possible.
"Happier together" as in all males and females together, is a myth in my opinion. Happier in groups is very true. No goat should be alone. Herds make for happy goats, regardless of their sex.

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Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Nubians & Lamanchas
www.ozarkjewels.net

"Remember, no man is a failure, who has friends" -Clarence

Yes, let's go back 1000 years in all farming practices. That makes perfect sense.

I was thinking the same thing. As with anything, people find better ways to do things. If the way they did things was so much better 1,000 years ago, why have they changed? Everything on this earth has advanced quite a lot from a thousand years ago. That is the way the world goes around. People continue to find things to improve their situations & make things easier/better. If you don't feel they are batter, that is your opinion, but I for one am thankful for the progress we have made. I will never own another horned goat as long as I live!

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I can't believe I deleted it!

Thousands of years also brought barns, pastures and processed feeds and minerals. Heck, some even get milked by machines and live in temp controlled climates. I personally am happy for new age and technology, maybe we just don't need all the caves and raw food.

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Robin
My life won't be complete until I am a full time stay at home goat mommy.

To answer the original question -- I disbud my goats first and foremost because I show. You cannot show a horned dairy goat in an ADGA show, period.

My buyers want disbudded goats. It's the difference between selling $400 kids and $20 kids. (the $20 non-disbudded kids are meat)

My commercial dairy buyer who buys my "cull" milkers will not take horned goats.

I don't want to have to hot wire every inch of my property to keep the goats away from the fence that keeps them in. I had the misfortune to have horned pygmies way back when, and keeping them from getting stuck in the fence was impossible, and they often did a lot of damage to the fence in the process.

Those are my reasons, in a nutshell.

Tracy

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Soldier Mountain Alpines
Southcentral Idaho
http://soldiermountainalpines.com

i dont understand the bickering--emily is right it is a personal choice, i can tell you what works for me but in the long run it is your decision to make as to what works for you. i think its wrong to be calling names---none of us are kids.........

I don't disagree that it is a personal choice. I Just see that if you disagree with the main stream ideas you get bashed. I was not bashing anyone when I noted the above practices. I was just trying to offer an alternative and in my belief cheaper/more natural method of raising goats. We get a lot of posts on here how to raise them the new modern way but very few on how to raise them cheaply on browse and pasture only. With min. input and work. Think grass fed beef, free range chickens, or pork pasture raised.

Hey doc you only have to go back 60 years to do it the "old" way.