Bo-Se Shots

AnnaS · #21 12/04/06, 05:51 PM

I'm sorry to hear about your doeling.

Here's a link to selenium toxicity.

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in...toc_213300.htm

Selenium overdose over a period of weeks causes loss of hair and cracking/splitting of hooves. Acute selenium poisoning symptoms include frothing from the nostrils and dialated pupils.

The straw colored fluid you saw was probably blood serum, which diffuses into the lungs as part of congestive heart failure. This is fairly common in dying animals.

If it is at all possible, have a vet do a postmortem and send a liver sample in for copper/selenium levels. If nothing else, you will know if the selenium was too much for her and have a really good idea of copper level in your herd.

susanne · #22 12/04/06, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnnaS

If it is at all possible, have a vet do a postmortem and send a liver sample in for copper/selenium levels. If nothing else, you will know if the selenium was too much for her and have a really good idea of copper level in your herd.

very good advice. this could help prevent this in the future with another kid.

oberhaslikid · #23 12/04/06, 06:02 PM

I ask the vet when I bought my Bo-se about a reaction .He said in his 30 years he has never seen a allergic reaction in any animal.

AllWolf · #24 12/04/06, 06:18 PM

It was killing me not knowing what killed my little Emily so I went to the Vet’s and talk to them and they told me it wasn’t the BO-SE shot because it doesn’t kill that fast it would be a slow death instead. So I told them about just adding beet pulp to the diet and they told me do not give no more beet pulp to my goats because of what I’m already feeding them is enough. They said that Emily died from sever bloat and been impacted that was why she was screaming plus after she died the straw looking fluid with a little bit of blood was where she ruptured inside. They said no matter if I brought her in to them they would do an emergency surgery but more likely still would lose her. They also to me not to beat myself up over this because things like this happens and I done all I could do for Emily. They said me tubing her only kept her a live for a bit because it was helping give her air. So now I know what happen to her so now can sleep better and no more beet pulp.

I feel like a failure for loosing my sweet Emily. I wished I could had saved her this time also but it must been meant for me not to.

susanne · #25 12/04/06, 07:44 PM

i'm feeding my goats beet pulp and they are very healthy, far from getting sick, bloated or dead.
don't know what your vet is talking about.

AllWolf · #26 12/04/06, 07:57 PM

I'm going to do what they tell me because I know now it wasn't the shot that harm her. I asked them lots of questions about beet pulp and they told me my goats are getting plenty of good stuff to eat so not to give them beet pulp. Goats can be allegic to that like a person can be allegic to seafood. But they told me she got bloated and sever impact and that is what kills a goat. I have never used beet pulp on her before an that was the first time so she might could had a allegic reaction but more likely she was bloated by all the things I told them. I'm not risking no more on my goats. My goats are my pets and I want the best care for them. I'm doing what the vet told me. Any goat can get sick and die but it hard to bare with when you done everything you can for them before and now this. Even my DD heard what the vet told me and I'm not going to question my vet because they know what they are talking about. You can have 30 years with animals and still something will happen to them no matter what you do. At least now I know it was the shot it was SEVER BLOAT that killed her. That is all I'm saying on this now it be best for me not to talk about this anymore because it hurts enough like it is.

Good Day and Good NIght.. Case Closed on my part.
Thanks for all the help from everyone but now I'm going to move on. Learn from stuff and move on.

ForMyACDs · #27 12/04/06, 08:12 PM

on your other post you'd mentioned that she was bloaty......bloat can certainly kill quite quickly. if you're giving wet molasses it's entirely possible that she had an acidic stomach that just eventually bloated.

i highly doubt it was the shot.......it would take a lot more bo-se ocer a much shorter time to kill an animal and you would have been seeing signs for a while before it happened. and bo-se does contain some vitamen E so unless you're giving a lot you usually don't have to give extra E.

without a necropsy it's really close to impossible to know for sure what killed your doeling.

sorry, cutting this short.....just had surgery on my hand and can only type one-handed.......

Susie-Q · #28 12/04/06, 11:40 PM

So sorry you lost your little goat.
I read this goat's history and looked at the pictures, and due to her long term weaken condition, without a necropsy, it is impossible to tell exactly what killed her.
A goat that has struggled, as she has, may react differently than a goat that is in good health. She may have had internal damages/weaknesses due to her medical history.
I have used beet pulp with no problems. I don't think it was beet pulp, per se, but I agree with DocM, that is a rich diet for a goat that has been through such an illness. Calf manna, alfalfa, wet molasses ( I do not use) plus beet pulp is a very rich diet and a recipe for bloat, especially in a weakened goat.
Since you mentioned the fact that when you brought her into the house she was somewhat bloated...my guess is Bloat was your problem...not allergic reaction, but bloat in her weak little system.

Are your other goats being fed this same mixture of feed?

SilverVista · #29 12/05/06, 05:32 PM

I know you probably want to put this topic to bed and move on, but there's a couple of points here that could use some re-examination. I really don't want to sound mean! I just think there are some points to be learned here.

First, in over 20 years of livestock, I've very rarely seen any reaction that could truly be blamed on "allergy" in an animal. There was a huge lot of discussion wasted worrying about being allergic!

Next, "Severe bloat" is something that you should be able to see a mile away. It doesn't go away by itself, and it's a killer. It never means allergy, it ALWAYS means a malfunction of the rumen! Either something has fermented in the rumen causing large amounts of foamy gas to expand, or else dry feedstuffs have absorbed fluids and swollen up, or both. If that had been mentioned, you may well have had completely different responses. Whether there would have been time to react I can't say, but it sure changes the discussion!

Finally, the vet's use of the word "impacted" makes me suspicious that you added the beet pulp to the feed mix dry. "Impacted" means that the doe's digestive system was completely clogged with solids that didn't have enough moisture in them to move through normally. Like Mega-constipation! Beet pulp will swell to over 3 times it's dry size when soaked in liquid! You'll find a small amount of dry beet pulp in feed formulated for show cattle because the fill that a little bit gives to a huge rumen as it swells looks nice, but for all other animals, I can't imagine feeding it without completely hydrating it first! Especially for a smaller goat whose rumen only holds a gallon or so of total matter at best. If your goats really need more fiber in their diet, adding a SMALL AMOUNT of hydrated beet pulp shouldn't hurt, but they really are designed to get that fiber from a lower-grade grass hay (not high-test alfalfa or orchard grass!) or natural brush forage if available.

You know, the dietary health of my livestock improved immensely -- and I mean in a HUGE way -- when, after about 15 years of feeding this and that, I finally spent one winter learning everything I could about how the rumen functions, and how the enzymes and bacteria in the rumen respond to changes in feed. If the rumen isn't functioning at it's happiest, the rest of the animal can't possibly thrive.

Again, I hope I haven't offended! It just seemed as though there was too much chance for the situation to fade away without really understanding what to look for and what to be alarmed about next time ---- and with goats, you KNOW there'll be a next time!

allenslabs · #30 12/05/06, 06:02 PM

Hey all just readin up. I would have guessed that by putting in the beet pulp (I assume that it was free choice?) that by it being a dry dehydrated matter, that she overate it and went hog wild. Well once in the stomach it became hydrated and therefore got some swelling which caused the bloat and if she ate a lot then there comes the rupture. And if you had stuck it out in the evening when feeding then you might not have been able to see that it was bloat. I've never had bloat though so I don't know what to look for . Just my guess...... kinda like they say not to feed birds rice cause it rehydrates and causes them to rupture internally and therefore bloating and dieing. But mixed in with their feed or introduced slowly I would guess little problems would arise as I have it in my feed and really like it. . Just my 2 cents!

AllWolf · #31 12/06/06, 06:44 AM

To make this short and sweet.

We found out it wasn't the BO-SE that killed her. It was sever bloat but we are not 100% sure from what because the beet pulp I had added to her feed was only a 1/2 spoon not very much beet pulp at all. So it wasn't the beet pulp either. We do not know what cause her to bloat like that. The feed I gave was the same amount no more to her. It was the same amounts as always. Plenty of fresh water and goat minerals also alone with hay. It wasn't the VET that help me with this part. It a great friend of mine that help me on this I talked to. Next it getting as cold as it did here made it even worse on her because of her being as sick as she had been. So the comnation between her trying to get all the way over of being sick, and the cold is mostly what more likely killed her. Yes she was bloated but we do not know why. That we will never know. Just at least she in peace now no more suffering. Oh one more thing when I add new feed for my goats I do not throw a huge bunch in at one time it is slowly added. Just wanted to make that clear. There is so many things could really happen to her sense she had already been very sick. Goat are one livestock that when they get sick sometimes it is very hard to pull them through.

Ok now I will hush on this subject and I done all I could for her. I might had failed but I'm not a bad livestock person some others would just let their animal die when they was as bad as EmILY was a month back. I know this by what all I have seen. So the good lord knows I done all I could but it was just her time to go. So I'm not going to beat myself up over it but move on. Thanks for any help you all given.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #32 12/06/06, 12:48 PM

You know, the dietary health of my livestock improved immensely -- and I mean in a HUGE way -- when, after about 15 years of feeding this and that, I finally spent one winter learning everything I could about how the rumen functions, and how the enzymes and bacteria in the rumen respond to changes in feed. If the rumen isn't functioning at it's happiest, the rest of the animal can't possibly thrive.

Again, I hope I haven't offended! It just seemed as though there was too much chance for the situation to fade away without really understanding what to look for and what to be alarmed about next time ---- and with goats, you KNOW there'll be a next time!
.......................

I really hope after you have time to digest all that you learned from this that you reread Silver Vista's post. Adding this and that to the diet, adding beat pulp when you are already using calcium in the form of alfalfa...adding calf manna when you are already having huge amounts of protein from the alfalfa...adding molassas when we all know it is the fastest way to killing rumen flora and is another form of quickly utilized energy like beet plup, but is not prolonged energy like grain... Knowing what you are feeding, but also why you are adding something to it, saves you money but also saves the longevity of your goats.

The worst thing you did for your doe was to add anything to her diet when she was already having problems with bloat. She likely needed all the grain taken out of her diet and just good hay until the problem could be fixed.

Learning about the rumen is key, just like having a septic tank in the backyard after years of city sewer....Vicki

moonspinner · #33 12/06/06, 02:52 PM

Sometimes we goaters can over complicate feeding, thinking this or that will be an improvement or great supplement to the basic diet. I have found that sticking to a simple diet - a solid feed mix that is easy on corn, easy on molasses, contains some BOSS and alfalfa pellets along with a tim/grass hay mixed with a bit more alfalfa for pregnant/lactating does, along with some pasture has done me well. Knock on wood, I've rarely had any serious problems.

Sher · #34 12/06/06, 03:42 PM

I have to agree with Vicki and Moonspinner..I hate to say it..but I do think the diet was the culprit. I go simple..probably too simple..but we go alfalfa .. browze if there is any...and supplement grain only to the gals on the milking stand and/or the mommas that have babies on them.

This cold weather does take its toll. Hopefully the goats are drinking as well as eating. And of course the minerals/salt.

Good luck to you..and I don't think anyone is saying anything bad..I just think everyone wants to keep this from happening again..to you or anyone else. Hang in there!!

AllWolf · #35 12/06/06, 04:18 PM

Want to make things clear reason my goats diets for does are like that because most of them will be milkers and bred. I do not do this and that to my feed. It has always been the same until I added the beet pulp to EMILY diet everyone else was already getting it. Plus she wasn't having problems with bloat until that day. You all seem to think I'm feeding my goats the wrong stuff but let me tell you think I have been feeding my goats this type of feed now for 2 years and no troubles until this year. I'm no expert but it was working for my goats until EMILY got down with SE so I only added beet pulp to her diet everyone else had already been getting it. Where I got my goats from also feed their goats the same diet and they been rasing goats for years. So what happen to EMILY was not my fault. Plus I also talked to my VET and they said the same thing. The diet I'm giving is great and good for my milk goats.

Again it wasn't her diet. I have talked to 4 different people that raises goat for over 10 years and it was not her diet. We can not give browse here all year because of winter. My goats gets hay, and their grain and fresh clean water and so far none of the bigger goats are fussing. If want to get into saying that I done wrong I can easily tell you all there is a drug that kills goats and is very painful but I do not want to get into fights on this board because it's not worth the time nor I do not eat my goats. You all need to slow down and read my post instead of saying this and that. I may not be in goats for 30 years but I know the diet isn't what killed her. I've got proff of it from 4 different goat breeders. Plus I'm having the vet to tell me what kill her so will know what the results is next week. But you all saying her diet killed her it darn funny my other goats not died. My goats get plenty of water also incase you all think not. I have a darn big tub out there for them plus when gets very cold I take Hot water to them.

Now take time and read that because you all are started to sound like I'm a bad goat person and heck I take the best care of my goats here in this county I about bet. Most other goats here are not care for much at all. There is a jerk that lives down the road from me doesn't give a dime about her herd and I have even seen her let her sheep lay in the pen for days dead. So I do not want to hear my goats aren't taken care of. Now I will hush because you all getting my blood boiling thinking I do not take care of my goats. When in fact I do and they are my milk goats plus pets.

AllWolf · #36 12/06/06, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sher

I have to agree with Vicki and Moonspinner..I hate to say it..but I do think the diet was the culprit. I go simple..probably too simple..but we go alfalfa .. browze if there is any...and supplement grain only to the gals on the milking stand and/or the mommas that have babies on them.

This cold weather does take its toll. Hopefully the goats are drinking as well as eating. And of course the minerals/salt.

Good luck to you..and I don't think anyone is saying anything bad..I just think everyone wants to keep this from happening again..to you or anyone else. Hang in there!!

Yes they are including you. My goats get plenty of water and all the correct things. I'm not over doing it on drugs like some of you people are. What might work for one person may not work for another but my goats get plenty of water.

After this post I will not be back on this board bann me I do not care I also will delete my the link to the place to. So bye and hope you all have fun jumping down someone else dam throat because I'm not a goat breeder, seller or kill my goats for meat. I do not want to be on a board that trys to act like they are a goodie toe shoe. Plus saying my goats are dieing because of the diet they are on. I didn't have no problems with other goats dieing from feed plus Yes I did loose a few when first started but it was from one a darn snake bite, next one from Cocci, one from accident at barn Last Emily so you can see it not from feed. Now I will shut up and leave this part of board. Have fun telling others also that I'm killing my goats when not darn so.

BYE!! THIS TIME FOR GOOD...

susanne · #37 12/06/06, 05:13 PM

nobody said you are killing your goats.

everybody was helpful and gave some ideas for you to think about it.
take it easy

**mygoat** · #38 12/06/06, 07:33 PM

I agree, no one is telling you that you're a bad goat owner, Allwolf. I've lost a couple goats myself, and I think that at least one could have been prevented from dying. But we learn from our mistakes... and then we post here to warn others or to get an answer... and support, which I've seen quite a bit of in this post. We also like going through these things and posting not only for your benefit, but for other's and our own as well. Other people that had something similar like this happen before can maybe get an answer or at least an idea, and the person who responds gets pretty much a brain workout trying to figure out how and why something happened, and then try to figure out how to prevent it from happening again.

Sher · #39 12/06/06, 07:37 PM

Oh my Allwolf..I certainly did not aim on upsetting you. And I apologize if I have offended you..that was not my intent..far from it.

I do NOT think you are killing your goats. I think your little one was having a bloat problem and the feed and additives were not helping it. That's all.

I asked about the water..because it has turned unseasonably cold here and this afternoon I was wondering to myself about MY goats water intake being enough. So I thought I'd pass that on.

Allwolf..all of us have a problem with a goat now and then. I myelf am having a problem with a weaned momma that is losing weight on me. I have tried everything and still her weight is below par. I understand the struggle..and so does everyone else on here. I was honestly trying to help ya..I am sorry if you thought otherwise.

I would hate to see you leave the goat forum. Hey..we can all learn from each other..right? God Bless..Sher

AllWolfsHUBBY · #40 12/06/06, 08:24 PM

AllWolf would never never harm a pet and or her pet goats on purpose. She has tried her best and has healthy goats. I love'm. She loves them and would never do anything to kill a goat or harm one. She has enjoyed it here but I do hate to get her feelings upset.