Buckling in trouble

I did a quick search typing in goats with urinary problems. Great info came up. A couple of places were Onion Creek and Jack Mauldins. A couple were university studies.

You can greatly enhance the probability of getting calculi in wethers by castrating them too soon. The longer you go...the bigger in diameter the ureathra gets. That allows more room for passage.

They said alot of people try to treat for bloat when it is calculi. They are anxious, full bellied/flank looking. They are "hunched". The more you put down there..if it is calculi..the faster the bladder fills, and then could burst if no relief in urination has begun.

Boy..some of those sites were outstanding. One of the university sites said NOT to use ac for treatment. Guess this is something .. thankfully..that they are all still working on.

Anyway...this may be info that no one needs..and I don't know if you castrated yet or anything.

My two cents is...We had two buck bottle babies. One always acted like he had to concentrate to pee, but always did pee. We still have the baby dolls. They are now seven. This last year..that same guy came down with calculi..my guess is a change in hay did it..but Praise to God and a great vet save, he is just fine now. But I always suspected that if one of them got into trouble peeing..it would be him just the way he always had such a ritual about peeing.

I remember Vicki posting something awhile back about early castration not having any more likelihood in preventing UC. Are there any studies on this?

Hi moonspinner..I went to www.sheepandgoat.com/metabol

A page comes up..start scanning as they have stuff on metabolic diseases listed. Quite a ways down the calculi is listed. They have many things to dip into..lol..I only got into about four. I believe one was from the Iowa State university. And I know Onion Creek and Jack Mauldins website both said it..they are listed there also..among many others.

Hope this helps..if it doesn't come up for you..let me know!

Sher,

I think you were referring to the sigmoid flexure.

Here's a link to treating UC.

http://uvalde.tamu.edu/staff/Machen7.htm

That site is right on the money Fishhead,,thank you!

Thanks for the link! Even though I err on the side of caution and wether later rather than early, I still would like to see studies that demonstrate a clear UC/early castration connection.

Sorry that wasn't what you were looking for moonspinner. Its definitely enough for me..well, that and Red having gone through it and being blessed to still be here. He had gone so far as to have the "water belly". I think of him as a miracle to still be here.

Hope someone can find more info...that's what makes this place so darned nice!

still would treat him for coccidia

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Susanne Stuetzler
Ain-ash-shams
Nubian Dairy Goats

please visit us at
http://www.ain-ash-shams.net

If early castration causes urinary calculi and delayed castration will fix it because the urethra is soo much larger in diameter, than WHY do adult intact bucks get urinary calculi. Please don't take info passed from one goat person to another as some sort of university facts. Also be very careful you aren't getting information from folks who are trying to sell you something. AC works. Vicki

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Vicki McGaugh
Nubian Soaps
North of Houston TX
www.etsy.com/shop/nubiansoaps

A 3 decade dairy goat farm homestead that is now a retail/wholesale soap company and construction business.

to me are are just one other goat person passing along your information. If you don't want people to listen to other goat people then why you?

I think that doing everything possible that people have learned or have discovered over the years is a good thing and should NOT be put down as unfactual just because you want to say so.

I have read in my goat management books that banding early does increase the risk of UC BECAUSE the stones can't pass through since the urinary tract didn't have time to develop. Hey if that isn't the case there still is no harm in waiting a few extra weeks to casterate.

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I don't think Texas A&M or ISU were trying to sell anything. And I don't believe that castrating early is the only thing that contributes to UC. And I am sure that ac helps the situation..and I am equally sure that the treatment that the vet gave me helped even more to bring back a wether that had water belly and was totally shut off.

I don't think much of total absolutes. I do believe in trying to do everything possible on the preventative side. If holding off castrating can help the boys..then that's what I will do. To each their own.

i have had male cats all my live. when time came to neuter them, vets in germany would always say wait at least 6 month to let him grow his urethra and lower the risk of blockage. i bring this as example because i don't have years of experience in goats yet. (but learning fast)
now, does that help to prevent stones? NO and nobody said so BUT it lowers the risk because if an animal is predispositioned to get stones and/or the diet is not appropiate smaller calculies can still pass if the urethra had time to grow out. i would always tend to band bucks that are sold for pack goats or pets.

only another goat person on the internet, so don't take it for granted what i say

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Susanne Stuetzler
Ain-ash-shams
Nubian Dairy Goats

please visit us at
http://www.ain-ash-shams.net

you are so right.

there are only a few absolutes in life and preventing UC is not one anyone has come up with, unfortunatly

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PygmyLover, you are new here. Vicki has been going out of her way to help people with goats for YEARS, and she has vast experience. Don't be too quick to judge things. If there were one person I'd want to talk to if I had a goat in trouble, it would be Vicki.

About ulcers, dairy cows can get ulcers, but it's very rare. Our vet said he sees about 6 cases a year. We had a cow with them once.

Jennifer

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-Northern NYS

What Jennifer said. Vicki's been around a long time. If you'll notice, there are a number of us, including Vicki, that joined this forum in May, 2002. That's because it was in May 2002 that this forum was successfully brought over from the Countryside forum that we were on for years before it was closed.

Vicki knows what she's doing. And she didn't say to ignore what others say. In fact, she said she agreed more with the guesses from the forum than with the "ulcers" diagnosis from the vet. I have to agree. I don't see a two-month-old kid having ulcers. Vicki just said not to take everything everyone says as a fact. There is a wide range of knowledge and experience on this board. A very few, like Vicki, have been doing this long enough, and have taken the time to educate themselves well enough, that they can make some pretty accurate guesses and prescribe proper treatments. Others are very new to goats and "know" just enough to be dangerous. Most are in between. It's up to the person with the problem to decide whom to trust.

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The basic message of liberalism is simply: The true measure of a society is how it treats the weak and the needy. A simple Christian message (Matthew 25:40). -Garrison Keillor

I contacted the author that paper that I posted as a link.

He said that he wasn't aware of any research that showed early castration led to UC.

The theory is based on the fact that testostrone encourages the enlargement of the urinary tract. Since castration would reduce the testostrone level it might lead to a smaller than normal tract and thus increase the chance of blockage. It makes sense in theory but so do a lot of other things that turn out to be false.

Clearly there are lots of factors (diet, bloodline, etc.) involved in UC.

It would be great if this stuff was "cookbook" but it's biology. Sometimes all we can do is guess.

It is actually the opposite of what you think...Milk actually makes the situation worse. Although it soothes the pain and makes you think that it's doing something for your ulcer, it's actually releasing more acid--making the ulcer worse...Most people think that milk will help because it eases the pain.

If you don't believe me-- google it! Some websites say that milk will help treat it, but this is not the case. They have done no studies...read from websites done by those who've done research.

Allison

Best of luck with your buckling!

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Silent Creek Farm:

Dairy Goats (Nubians)
Rabbits (Cali. & N.D.'s)
Poultry (Ducks, geese, chickens)

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Don't mistreat animals...I will be vicious

Please don't take info passed from one goat person to another as some sort of university facts. Also be very careful you aren't getting information from folks who are trying to sell you something.
..........................

Pygmylover you seem to have alot of problems recently with everything I write...hint, don't read what I write, I will give you the same consideration after this post.

Read what I wrote....just because you read something on a site does not mean it came from anything of scientific fact, it is someones opinion, like using vinegar in the water...scientifially we know it does not change the PH of the urine enough to help with UC, but people write that all the time...it also can not give you more doe kids, yet people write that all the time. My second statement is because there are sites that folks bash AC because they have a new and improved product for UC they want you to buy.

I have done alot of research, and read a good bit of the studies written in the back of Goat Medicine on topics that can help my herd. I have also tested for many things that I do write about. I rarely post about things that have not happened to me personally, and if it is something I have heard or read I usually post this also.

Forum:

I have shared this before: It isn't even remotely a scientific study done on UC and the diameter of an uncastrated yearling buck and a castrated at brith yearling brother wether, was by my 4H group. My vet under a microscope could not tell the difference between the two's urethra diameter at butcher.

This would make a very good science fair project for a child...perhaps someones children could do this with some spring born twin brothers and post this information the following fall. Ours was done in the early 90's pre-internet. Vicki

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Vicki McGaugh
Nubian Soaps
North of Houston TX
www.etsy.com/shop/nubiansoaps

A 3 decade dairy goat farm homestead that is now a retail/wholesale soap company and construction business.

ummm...what does banding a scrotum have to do with the urinary tract? those are 2 different things... if somehow you banded the urethra, you banded the wrong appendage.

When studying anatomy/physiology, they arent even in the same chapter...

Because the testosterone produced in a buck comes from his testes. The premise is that the older the buck the more testosterone has enlarged his urethra in diameter.......V

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Vicki McGaugh
Nubian Soaps
North of Houston TX
www.etsy.com/shop/nubiansoaps

A 3 decade dairy goat farm homestead that is now a retail/wholesale soap company and construction business.