Where have all the grade goats gone?

And isn't that exactly the reason so many of us sneak an empty dog kennel in the back of our pickup or van? Who knows when you might find a great deal on a goat! My family will no longer allow me to justify bringing the horse trailer when we travel.

I just went back thru the entire thread and carefully read each post again. I did not see anyone looking down on the people with nanny goats. Instead I saw people explaining why they don't breed unregistered grades and being called elitist because of it.......

The theme over and over on this forum isn't what breed you get or whether it's purebred or not. Instead I see people stressing over and over to new purchasers that health and quality is what's important in purchasing animals. In other words buy the best quality you can afford (regardless of whether it's a purebred or grade) and make sure you purchase from someone whose herd health you trust.

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Australian Cattle Dogs & Custom Artwork
http//LisaAmbrose.com

Cat,
Sorry, I don't have a dog in this fight...but,
It sounds like you have the knowledge to pick good animals,so here is a good place to start your search for some good grade animals. It takes patience and sometimes several phone calls to "find" what you're looking for.
http://duhgoatman.tripod.com/ks.htm
If the breeders listed here don't have what you're looking for...most are more than willing to refer you to someone that does. Or at least that's what I've found.
Kaye

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TIVIO TOGGS
ADGA,DHIR,LA,AI,Show
http://www.freewebs.com/tiviotoggs

Even with registered stock I have never gotten more than $150 for a doe kid. People around here just do not want to pay those prices. What about those of us that will never show? How can we get good prices for our registered stock without showing? I do not want to show, have no desire to drag my goats all over & expose them to who knows what, & simply do not have the time to show. So what is the plus to me registering my stock? I really don't mean this in a snotty way. I am curious as to how I can get better prices on my registered goats.

I really have to disagree with that. If someone has a doe just for family milking, what does it matter what the doe is bred too? The goal is to get the goat in milk & any old buck will do the job. The kids can go for meat, so why would it matter & why would you say that is bad husbandry? I sure wouldn't go to a big expense to breed to a registered, proven buck if the kids were going for meat & all I wanted was for my doe to be in milk. That to me would be a huge waste of money.

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I can't believe I deleted it!

According to AGDA stats, there are breeders in your area getting more than $150 for their goats. Perhaps your goats aren't worth more than that? I don't mean that in a snide way - but your attitude doesn't exactly seem aimed towards quality husbandry and trying to improve animals toward a breed standard. If you want to command higher prices, you need to market your animals towards those interested in quality show stock, and breed for that. There are 10,000 ways to network online without going to shows. Plus, if your animals are registered, you can participate in DHIR testing and LA. Doing that gives your animals an advantage that is is attached to their pedigree.

If you can't understand that, I can't help you. "Any old buck"? Good grief. Any old buck is going to propogate any old goat, and I wouldn't take "any old goat" for free. You'd have to pay me to take it - which is exactly how I ended up with 2 grade nubians, lovely goats - but without some record of their performance, why should I take them on, feed them, spend time and money on them? How do I ensure my investment? With long standing pedigrees and records of milk and appraising.

I have yet to sell a wether for meat. I have a waiting list for wethers, because my son starts them as pack goats before selling. He can command upwards of $300 for yearlings that have been trained to follow him on a trail - and hiking is something he does anyway. There are plenty of ways to make money with goats, but it takes a little bit of thought.

I would be happy to PM you some of the pedigrees if that would help you in knowing if my goats are worth more than that. I do have registered stock, but I have not researched them like a lot of people do so I don't know which lines are the best. I didn't realize I had an attitude. I do breed towards a goal. I do feel though, that when someone isn't showing or hasn't been to shows, it makes it a little harder to know what exactly it is people are wanting as far as the breed goes. Does that make sense? I am aiming towards goats with good attachments & good milk production. Would that be enough for someone that wants them to show? Perhaps I need to find someone else that would buy them to show. How does one get them appraised, etc.??

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I can't believe I deleted it!

Do you belong to AGDA?

If you mean ADGA, yes I do.

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I can't believe I deleted it!

Cat, aren't you glad you asked?

Who will emerge as "herd queen" of the goat forum? Or will the heads keep butting forever?


Lighten up, guys! There's room for all of us on here!

I appreciate all the wonderful and helpful information I get on this forum. The best and most accurate information usually comes from the members who are breeders of registered show stock. Because it is their business, they do the work to keep informed. I appreciate that they take the time to answer many questions that concern me. This forum has been a tremendous resource to me.

But I do and did understand what Cat was asking as well. I do believe some of what followed was a reaction to something that was never stated, as Cat explained.

None of my goats are registered, by my choice. I have several that could be, that are absolutely beautiful goats with outstanding milking genetics. I also have several very promising grade goats.

Question: if you take a registered Nubian with great milking genetics, and a registered Alpine, or Saanen, also with great milking genetics, and you breed them...chances are very, very good you will get a wonderful milker. Who happens to be a grade goat.

Let's leave a little room for differences, and be kind while we are at it. Comments like this one are just plain catty and not worthy of an adult member of this forum.

Actually, I don't think they were talking about you, just venting some frustration with their own experiences. As far as I can tell YOU were not attacked or belittled, you weren't actually the subject of the post at all. I'm sure others have approached them with the unrealistic things they spoke of, wanting a good doe all ready to milk for almost nothing. I've come to realize that many times a person (I'm not exempt) reads a post on a forum and it brings something to mind, which they share, although it isn't really relevant to the original post or question at all.

Also, even though you didn't want to do that, some people seemed to have taken your desire for just nice goats as an attack on those that breed purebred stock and responded out of that position. I think it was not an attack on you again, but just they felt a need to defend themselves. And, perhaps that no so much against what you said, as against accusations others have made at other times.

So.. there were some good ideas on how to find goats, I wish you luck in finding the perfect goats.

~ Carol

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~ Carol

The herd queen of a message board is generally the one who feels the need to correct everyone's behavior, doesn't bother to follow the entire thread, and is hypocritical by posting their own catty responses. Congratulations.

The few breeders that have responded have been called names and been accused of attacking. I'm still waiting to have it pointed out to me where the original poster was attacked. I can certainly point out where her original quesiton was answered.

"Cat" asked where the unregistered goats are - and it was answered, over and over. What she chooses to do with the information is up to her. My guess is she didn't want a response, she wanted a few people to agree with her. It never fails to amaze me why people post questions on message boards when they don't want answers.

Goats that aren't valued end up being treated like garbage. My response still stands. Do the goats a favor and stick with sheep.

Purebred pedigrees are only a start because of course most people know there are culls no matter what their pedigree might be because breeding isn't fully a science.......it's part research and part luck. In order to get the higher prices prove the quality of your animals with DHIA testing and Linear appraisal........you won't have to show and your animals will not only prove themselves in the bucket but will also have an appraisal stating what an outside source has evaluated your stock to be without ever going to a show. Even if you don't do that a HUGE selling point is herd health. Test your stock and be sure you have a healthy herd.

More so than Linear Appraisals, showing and DHIA (all of which I participated in) the biggest selling point in my herd was health. I tested my animals regularly and only purchased from herds I personally trusted. That more than anything sold my animals as I had a list of people waiting for my cull stock. I wasn't one to sell my animals for high prices to begin with but a cull doe who would make a good, healthy milker for a family went for about $200-250. I had multiple people interested in my kids and when I had to sell my herd I had to answer nearly 200 emails from interested people!!!

If you don't do the above types of things it's pretty unlikely that you'll be able to command top dollar for your stock. Very few people can honestly command prices of $800-$1000 for kids and it takes a lot of work to get there, but $250-$500 isn't all that uncommon for kids out of proven stock. When you compare apples to apples (proven grades, compared to proven purebreds) yes, the purebreds tend to go for more.

Now if you breed an excellent quality purebred doe of one breed to an excellent quality purebred buck of another breed you do wind up with grades but usually they're registered as recorded grades so the unregistered grade thing doesn't usually apply. When I had a young buck that would NOT breed my older does I did breed my older purebred nubians to an EXCELLENT, proven Saanen buck and was actually looking forward to the resulting kids, they would have been registered as Recorded Grades and shown, DHIA tested & Linear Appraised just as the rest of my herd was. As far as fetching a price they would have certainly brought me less $$ than my purebreds however if sold.


If kids are only going for meat then it doesn't really apply to the discussion because at that point you wouldn't be much worried about the prices and saleability of kids. So you're both talking about two completely seperate situations. HOWEVER......kids can ALSO be what proves your stock. Let's say, if I were looking for a doe and had the choice between two equally interesting does......one of them only bred for meat kids and the other bred to a quality buck for replacement kids who produced nicely I would certainly pass up the doe producing meat kids. Yes, she might just produce well if bred to a nice buck, but why take the chance when you can instead have a doe that's a proven producer of quality kids?

I only ever had to eat two of my buck kids.......the rest all sold as herd sires.....certainly easier to make a few bucks right away than to have to take care of an animal for several months before butchering. That's the way I looked at it. Besides......for what I sold a kid at birth I could wait a few months and buy a "billy" (from another farm whose care I trusted) who'd already been raised and have it buchered and never have to even take care of it and if I'd been REALLY thrifty I could have put the purchase price of my kids in the bank and earned some interest on it while waiting to purchase a kid from this other farm, but alas things don't usually go like that.

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Australian Cattle Dogs & Custom Artwork
http//LisaAmbrose.com

Cat do some more searching and maybe asking those breeders if they know someone who breeds grade does. There is a possibilty that the purbred breeders have been contacted by the grade or experimental breeders to use their bucks or even buy kids, get advise etc. They are around, but not adversized. I was one of them. To me if I want a family milker or a goat to start with start with something less expensive and learn and grow, save and when you know that this is truly what you want buy purbred, OR stick with you lovely grades who will give you plenty of milk (don't have to have great bloodlines to acheive that) for what you want. DocM is not totally right about grade breeders not being around, they are just hidden, not advertized, maybe more plentiful in one state to another but they are there. Not everyone can offord purbred does.

No offense to those of you who breed for quality and better milk production etc - kudos to you. That is hard work and should be praise.

I am just trying to help Cat here.

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http://www.freewebs.com/endofthelinefarm/

Even with registered stock I have never gotten more than $150 for a doe kid. People around here just do not want to pay those prices.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Wendy my friends already know my answer to this..you have to think outside the box. My customers are not local folks. I do have a few Nubians in friends herds around me, but there are 3 of us in about 25 miles who have purebred stock that show. Your customers are not the local folks in your town. Products are sold into the next large town, here for me Houston, which is over 1 hour away. But stock? I do a few outside breedings a year to local folks, but that is about it. Most folks who buy goats from me drive a good deal to get here, and alot of our kids are flown to their new homes or folks meet me at shows to pick up their newest addition.

It's just how things are, I want goats from Washington and New York, 1 buckling this season if born will fly to Washington

Biggy, purebred or non, dairy or meat, if nobody knows you have goats, if your name doesn't goggle up when your breed is mentioned, sales will be poor for you. Advertising locally is only part of the answer, since locally for me folks are once again only willing to pay that $50. Vicki

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Vicki McGaugh
Nubian Soaps
North of Houston TX
www.etsy.com/shop/nubiansoaps

A 3 decade dairy goat farm homestead that is now a retail/wholesale soap company and construction business.

I honestly don't understand how anyone cannot see the 8 uses of the word YOU in this post, this post that is a reply to my question. Tell me again that's not directed at me specifically?!? Everything up to here was peachy. I know from past experience that certain individuals like to belittle those who don't worship at the alter of registration so I made every effort, numerous times to state that I respect those who do register and their opinions, but that isn't important to me. All this in an attempt to prevent exactly what ended up happening.

BTW, not once did I mention the term 'elite breeder'. I mentioned an elitist attitude which is an altogether different creature. I'll let those who believe they're 'elite breeders' continue patting themselves on the back, it takes a lot more than a bit of bullying on a forum for me to believe someone is one of the 'elite'.

Tell me exactly how a direct attack on me based on nothing more than assumptions answers the following question, which was my question in my original post: My complaint in the original post was exactly what a lot of those responding commented on, those individuals who treat goats as tin-can eaters or nanny & billy goats!!!! If I wanted a worthless goat I could have any number of them! I want a goat that has been well cared for, I want a goat from a herd that is well cared for. I want a goat from a herd that is naturally healthy, not pumped full of any number of drugs to keep them on their feet. Like the song suggests, if that's so wrong then I don't want to be right. Nowhere is it written that ANY animal has to be registered to be a quality animal!!! If you believe that you're either easily influenced or you're the owner of registered animals who have to push them as 'superior' to sell your product for the prices you do. Do I believe that a great number of animals who are registered have inflated prices? You bet I do! Is that what this thread was about? Not originally! That is, until those who feel they must criticize others stepped on board and began their tirade. Yes, it irritates the crap out of me. I'm accused of being thin-skinned and yet the very same statement could be made about the accuser who was the one who initiated the downward spiral of this post accusing me for all of these supposed unreasonable demands I make on the 'poor, little ol' breeder' when that couldn't be further from the truth.

Several individuals stated simply, I don't raise grades because they don't sell well for me. 'nuff said'. These individuals stated this in a very respectful and tolerant tone. It doesn't bother me a bit that they raise ADGA goats, if that's what they value then I applaud them for their efforts. Why, then, should I be belittled and berated because I have a different belief than they? The truth of the matter is that I shouldn't have been.

I honestly don't see where it 'makes sense' to pay $750+ for a doe giving a gallon of milk a day or $200 for a doe giving a gallon a day unless you're pushing the ADGA agenda which I've already stated I have no interest in doing. In my honest opinion, I think the reason so many people purchase registered animals when they don't truly need to is because the propaganda is that the only animal worth a crap has to come with a piece of paper telling them what a good goatie they have. If you believe the propaganda, go buy your over-inflated priced goat and be content and fulfilled that you are one of the all-knowing and righteous. If you're able to think independently and realize whether a registration paper is needed or not for your situation, buy what suits your needs and be content and fulfilled that you have what you need.

I would put any doe from the grade herd my mother established against any registered goat you or any of the other elitists own any day of the week. The truth of the matter is you know absolutely NOTHING about me, you know absolutely NOTHING about my experience with goats, you know NOTHING about the quality of animals I raise and all of your accusations of my supposed poor handling and treatment don't hold water. I will stick with sheep because I enjoy having them, and I will buy or not buy a few does if/when I find what I want. Your opinion on the matter means absolutely nothing.

I have had so many PMs from quite a few gracious people trying to help, and I appreciate every one and am looking into the information as I'm able...

I've come to realize why so many choose to PM instead of posting publicly because they're obviously well versed in the way this board is ran by a few of you.

This mindset where certain individuals are so beligerent about pushing registration is eerily similar to the propaganda being spewed about NAIS. Our way is THE way. Good grief.

Now, can't we just let this thread die and I will go back to ignoring the goat forum (funny...but this is exactly the reason I stopped visiting initially!) and all y'all that like to run this board can get back to running it how you see fit and promote whatever propaganda you like.

BTW, Kaye...even your site has been on my 'peruse the website' list!! You who lives in AR. I've really come to like Toggs because all those I've had have been such easy milkers. I go to NW AR each July and sometimes in between and don't think I wouldn't subject the family to a van carrying an extra kid or two!!! You are a bit south of where I visit so that would pose a problem...hmmm...

this is sad and so true.

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Susanne Stuetzler
Ain-ash-shams
Nubian Dairy Goats

please visit us at
http://www.ain-ash-shams.net

Cat,
It is unfortunate the way things turned out. There is a lot of good information in this post as well as on this board. Ya gotta know the writing styles and time constraints.
Boards are a problem because writing is an art. It is an art to get across what exactly you are trying to say and what your intonation is without visual contact to back it up.
I myself can't stand phone calls because I don't have the time to think out what I am trying to get across and I blurt out what pops into my head. Due to my upbringing (exposure to things I consider the norm but would not be the norm to others) and my frankness it tends to get me into trouble. While on-line I can ponder my words and carefully put them to gether..when I have the time.
Knowing Vicki, I know she doesn't have the time and she has mentioned in the past that she knows she's up front. When I read her message I didn't see it as directed at you personally, despite the use of the word "you." It was pointed at the people she has run into with similar requests but looking for the under $100 milker. They have made unrealistic requests and expected much more than what she could gain from the experience.
It is hard to fully support your goat habit without a great deal of work. So when people are asking a great deal for their goats, it tends to be those who have sat down and crunched numbers and are trying to make a real go at it. Trying to keep it from being an expensive hobby.
I'm quite content with my grades and crossbreeds. They do what we ask of them and look great. I do, however, feel a draw towards papers. Not to charge more, because I'm not likely to ask much more (at least the cost of registration, however) for papered stock than I would for non-papered. I would love to be able to paper my older girls, if only to have it show up on their daughters papers where they came from. I wouldn't gain any ground in the breeding up programs from it. Unfortunately, those elf ears are a bear to breed out...When a 7/8 Nubian, 1/8 LaMancha/Alpine doeling has elf ears and a roman nose there is no way to get her identified if she isn't out of papered stock. Which is a bummer, because that is the way it tends to go in that line. The daughters are elf eared, the bucks have the long ears.

So I guess I do have one question.....maybe I need to re-read your original question though.
Are you against papered stock period? Or are you under the impression they cost an arm and a leg because they are papered? You mentioned, I believe, not looking for NOAed animals either and I can't see how that would change the price much. All it does is say yes they fit this breed description. It also gives them a record.
Or were the first 3 issues all one issue. In that you could not track down stock that wasn't overpriced according to your standards and papered. Or would you be contant to have papered stock, but is closer to what you feel is fair for milking stock?

I dunno. It's hard to see it without my almost anal attention to accurate record keeping rearing its ugly head.
I was working on the website earlier this week and determining offspring breeds...this year we have a couple of kids who will have 1/32nd Saanen. I am that particular about accuracy.
Just my nature. Records can tell you a lot.
I'm nibbing, yes. I like to understand the whys and what fors of decisions people make.

Well Cat, I have a unregistered full blood togg doe at 10 mos old I have bred to a full blood alpine buck, due in March. Couldn't breed her back to her dad! I have mom, dad, aunts and 2 more siblings you can see. She gets fed 2x's a day so she can keep growing and carry her kids. She comes when you call but is skiddish when handled. She is in with 12 other kids and hasn't been handled that much as I work. I am CAE tested and vacinate and worm routinely. Was asking $150. for her but will take $100.There is another togg doeling that is a little younger but she is black and hasn't been bred. Also have a saanan/alpine cross doe that is 7mos old , parents on farm can see them too. If any of these interest you ,can get current pictures. There is nothing wrong with these girls it is just I have 30+ does that will kid starting in January and I need the room. I am located around Osceola Missouri.

jr05

Doc,
It's ADGA not AGDA.