Where have all the grade goats gone?

I've used two registered Nubian bucks and not bothered w/ paperwork on my unregistered does. Last year my buck was half registered nubian/half reg. alpine with no papers....people around here just wont fork over the cash for a papered animal...I may go with papers for grade kids this Spring....but porbably not.
I dont show and our milk is for homestead production only....I bottle feed the calf...I cant imagine letting a calf nurse a goat

If you find a goat that is decent horns can be banded off...and dont be afraid of crosses....they have been some of my best goats.

Um, actually, you asked why you couldn't find any grade goats, and some of us tried to explain goat market economics to you. I don't see where anyone attacked you, and in fact, you're calling the breeders "elitist".

Vickie just pointed out why she sells her animals at the price she does. I agree with every point she made. When someone comes to my house to buy a goat, 9 times out of 10, they've never owned one before. Thank God the person I bought my first goats from took several hours to teach me how to take care of it, milk it, everything. I willingly paid for that experience, and their patience. In no way did she every accuse YOU of being the person she was describing. Considering her vast experience and the a amount of time she spends on these boards educating new and inexperienced goat owners, you should be thankful for people like her, instead of calling them names.

Maybe I am elitist. If you came to my house now, with your anti medication attitude, I probably wouldnt' sell you a goat. I want my goats to go to good caring homes, and grade goats get sick in the same percentages as registered goats - probably more. Who's going to call a vet for a $50 goat?

Wow..did this thread go astray. Geesh..the woman wants some nice milking does..no horns..unregistered..reasonably priced. Get a grip people.

And there are a few of us unregistered goat owners out here that DO make money off their goats. And to top it off..we get RETURN buyers. I know I'm not too popular on here..and its usually a handfuls way or the highway..but wow. Any chance some of you might want to re-read Cat's questions and then re-read your responses? I hope the heck ya would apologize.

My stuff isn't CL OR CAE tested. I am waiting for four does to kid any day now. The does and all the kids are already spoken for..they would be gone now..but they are so close to kidding we didn't want to stress anyone. A guy came to buy registered Dexters and took the two black headed 50/50 kids that were in the bulls pen with him too.

So no..I am not gonna jump on a band wagon for the anti unregistered goats. And I am also not going to let the comment of grade goats not making money go buy unchallenged.

Not eveyone grains..and the way grain markets are going...you that do will have to cut back on it or raise your prices even higher or take even more loss. Not everyone vaccinates and worms from birth to eternity either. That costs money and depending on your situation...is not neccessary. And I doubt great on the animal itself. The person running 12 head on 10 acres is not going to raise them the same way as people who are in a dairy situation or have goats squeezed into dry lots etc.

Can't ya just be thankful that someone came here looking for goats? Can't ya just answer the question asked? Instead it seems the "pounce" mentality has taken over. And for every EXPERT on here...get a grip...you aren't the only ones with experience and your not the end all to goats. If you were...ya wouldn't have to get so nasty and crass and judgemental.

Who pounced on anyone? Really, this is ridiculous. Someone asks where the grade goats are, and people answer. Maybe it's just my area - but there is NO market for grade goats here. Did anyone call the grade goat owner "elitist"? No. In fact, I stated that I have some grade goats and no buyers.

I could go on for hours about the benefits of raising registered stock, and the advantages to belonging to a large well established species ownership organization like AGDA, but that wasn't the question, was it.

Apparently YOU are the one who didn't read the questions and answers. Sheesh, I'm seriously laughing now.

As a species, we rely so much on facial-body-language-tone-of-voice that when we read these sterile typed messages we sometimes misinterpret. I get SOOOOO much benefit from all youse guys...now, back to the topic. One boer breeder I visited in the Sacto area went to registered breeding stock so they could make more money-plain and simple. Others go for lineage, and in the case of the woman I visited this morning, the vast majority of her stock is unregistered milking and meat stock, BUT she wants SOME registered so she can then diversify and sell some registered goats as well. Thats why she bought a fullblood registered doe from me. Hey, I've got to disappear from the talk and take three 7 year-olds to see a movie (right now they are out in the pouring rain at the lemonade stand they've set up on our dirt driveway...my husband just called and said they're raking it in-construction guys building a house next door-wouldn't our world be a better place if we all had that kind of energy and positive outlook on life?) Have a great Thanksgiving everyone!

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Joan Crandell
Wild Iris Farm
"Fair"- the other 4 letter F word." This epiphany came after almost 10 days straight at our county fair.

[QUOTE=DocM]Who pounced on anyone? Really, this is ridiculous. Someone asks where the grade goats are, and people answer. Maybe it's just my area - but there is NO market for grade goats here. Did anyone call the grade goat owner "elitist"? No. In fact, I stated that I have some grade goats and no buyers.

Well doc..that's not how it is in the midwest..grades sell..that's the market here.


I could go on for hours about the benefits of raising registered stock, and the advantages to belonging to a large well established species ownership organization like AGDA, but that wasn't the question, was it.

doc..she is not trying to be a breeder..she is not trying to build a business..she just wants a couple of quality milk goats.

Apparently YOU are the one who didn't read the questions and answers. Sheesh, I'm seriously laughing now.[/QUOTE

laugh doc..it makes you so special

Doc, it's plain and simple...if you HAVE to constantly medicate your animals for ANY reason you're not doing something right and that goes whether you're raising ADGA or tin can eaters. Healthy animals get sick very rarely as they're able to handle distress through their healthy immune systems. The only medicine I keep on hand for my sheep is penicillin and even that I use sparingly as I want HARDY animals. Healthy, hardy animals RARELY have an infestation of parasites. If you choose to stock your medicine kit rather than raise healthy, hardy animals then that's your perogative but don't you dare go suggesting that YOU are the one with all the answers.

Let's see here: Vicki McGaugh has absolutely NO idea what I want beyond what I wrote in my messages. Yes, that was directed AT ME implying that somehow I cannot make reasonable decisions or have a decent knowledge of goats because I want to buy something that is priced on true value rather than someone's pride.

Again, another statement directed at ME personally, implying that I have unreasonable expectations.

Again, here she is directing another statement based on NOTHING but assumption, directly at ME.

Funny, but nowhere does it state that an owner of any animal has to own registered stock to be a breeder. Anyone can be an elitist, several of you have that down pat. That's exactly what you're portraying when you try to label others who don't toe the same line as you as being somehow inferior to you and all your wisdom. Give me a break.

I've received so many great PMs from individuals who are EXACTLY the type of people I can't find locally, and I appreciate every one of them! I've received PMs from people who have referred me to other breeder's websites, THAT is the type of message that is productive and beneficial to me. I've also received several PMs from individuals voicing the same opinion about the posts made by the elitists so I'm not the only one irritated by it.

Do the goats a favor. Stick with sheep.

Don't ask questions on an open forum if you don't want our opinions, exactly what you got from hundreds of folks coming here for family milkers is what I answered you, my opinon.

And if you are that thin skinned about it all, please don't get into Nubians!

It is no longer a family hobby homestead farm atmosphere if you haven't noticed. The prices of everything has gone up that you will HAVE to have an income for any livestock you keep or you will not have it long. You have to sell kids eventually, unless you are going to butcher all of them. Doing all the same work I do, and getting 1/16th the amount for kids I get for the same output, isn't anyway to start or keep a homestead going. At some point house milk doesn't add up to everything you will be spending. Having extra milk, cheese, soap, kids etc. for sale is a must. Well unless the person who works off the homestead enjoys paying for an expensive hobby.

And just because we all answer health and nutrition related questions non stop on open forums, does not mean we medicate our own stock. Because I use prevention, rarely is a bottle of anything open and used on my stock.

Vicki the elitist and proud of it! Go purebreds!

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Vicki McGaugh
Nubian Soaps
North of Houston TX
www.etsy.com/shop/nubiansoaps

A 3 decade dairy goat farm homestead that is now a retail/wholesale soap company and construction business.

Wish you were closer. I have purebreds & grades. I have tossed around the idea of not registering anymore of mine even though they can be. Registered goats around here are just not a hot item. People want a decent homestead milker & don't care if it has papers. And just because they have papers does not mean they are worth anymore. Sorry, that's just the way I see it. I have a couple of grades that milk better than my purebreds. Papers to me are only needed if you are into showing. I do not & have no intention of ever showing. What I do want to breed for is a good homestead milker. One that kids easy, milks easy & is an all around good goat. I don't make much money. Probably just break even. I never started in goats as a money making venture. I started in them because I wanted milk for our own use. Some of us don't really care if we make any money with our goats. They are here to give us milk & companionship. I don't need papers for that. I realize the papers can show you the lines that produce milk or kid easy or whatever. BUT, for someone wanting a goat strictly for milk, the papers do not matter. They also do not want to spend a fortune on a goat that will just be used for the homestead.

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I can't believe I deleted it!

I sold two of my milkers really cheap this year, because they weren't show Quality to family's with children who really needed raw goat milk for their children. I don't have to feed them anymore this year, and would never have kept any of their kids for my show string, so that figured in also. They were healthy and tested last fall they both went for $200 each. Also I don't use Drugs in My goats, I do vaccinate. I also sold one of my doelings out of them cheap $150, Every goat who is here now is here with improving the show herd in mind. And milk I sold a really nice show goat this year because she wouldn't milk , most of my goat income is from Milk Soap. Goats cost a Lot of money to correctly feed, and I need them to at least pay their own feedbill.

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BryrPatch Quality Handmade Goat milk Soap, Lotions; ADGA Dairy Goats, DHIR, LA, Shows, Current whole herd CAE neg tests. We R Kidding now! www.BryrPatch.com

what realy does it cost to produce a gallon of milk?
this was the question before we bought our first goats.
this was the math we did:

one goat cost between $150 to $300 and we assumed she will be productive for average 8 years. if we go on the high end price of $300 will give as a cost of $3.12 a month (300:8Y:12M)
now in my area food is very expencive and a goat cost me about $1.30 per day for food,bedding and mineral salt and parasite control. this will add up to ~$39 per month.
i expect my doe to milk around 2000# per year or to make math a little bit easier 250 gallon = 20.83 gallon per month.
$39+3.12=42.12 : 20.83 = $2.02 for a gallon of milk.
i did not count in the (kids) meat she is producing once a year.
if i go to the supermarket i pay at least $3 per gallon for way less quality.
it is plain not true that a homestaeding milk doe is too expensive.
on the other hand if you have more goats that produces so much milk that you have to through it out than it becomes an expensive hobby.
i am a breeder too but i hope i will never loose sight what a good goat is all about.
an elite breeder for me is a breeder that with the genetic selection and choices he/she makes produces home bred champions.
not somebody that has to buy animals after 20 years breeding experience to show of.

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Susanne Stuetzler
Ain-ash-shams
Nubian Dairy Goats

please visit us at
http://www.ain-ash-shams.net

Susanne of course in her way is talking about me. Susanne has had goats for one full breeding season now. She has a problem that I started over my herd this last several years, after my last child graduated from high school, my herd was very small after the herd dispersals of first my oldest daughters Nubians, than my youngest daughters LaManchas as they left High School and used the money to go to college (my oldest daughter paid for 2 years of college with her money, my younger one 1)...leaving me with very aged does...8 to 12 year olds and a 10 year old buck, to continue my, and it was not mine in the true sense of the word but my daughters ideas of breeding) breeding program. So I purchased a buck and 2 does, from the same folks Susanne has now purchased from The focus of my herd, now 21 years later is a breeding and show stock herd, certainly it was not the focus when I started, nor could it be the focus when I was raising my own children. So no there are no champion does in my herd with my herd name. Wonder what your herd will look like in 21 years Susanne? All of you younger moms with younger children will be faced with that same decision as your children (think labor force) leave home, are married and have your grandbabies. Do you sell your stock? Do you continue?

I think in most ways my story shows new people, homesteading folks and those who want to make a profit at their goats, how versatile goats are and how anything is possible. We moved onto our 13 acres in the national forest when my children were 2, 3 and 5., in 1985. We lived in a camper trailer for 3 years while we built our house out of pocket. I did not want to have someone else raise my children while I worked, and I certainly didn't want to stay on the farm with no income of my own...coming from a horse farm in San Diego, and thought I could duplicate what I knew into goats. We started a very basic nanny and billy goat farm and I used the auction barn. After attending my first show and seeing purebred Nubians, I knew it was for me. We started small with my girls showing, added Lamancha's, started exproting goats through Mexico...all our stock was sold, nothing was sacred, not even show stock winning that year, because I had to make money. My husband quit his state job and started his own business, Handyman Services. We live debt free, his company is not soo small anymore. My Nubians and the things I do with them have made me a good deal of money. I am very proud that I do not use one cent of my husbands income to support any part of my goats, fencing and facility also.

I will always come to questions on this forum in the vien of helping all of you make the most of your stock, it is done with genetics, nutrition, and management (parasite, vaccination) and above all prevention. Perhaps this forum is not about homesteading anymore? Being more selfsufficient on the homestead certainly can be obtained by the women of the family with dairy goats if you plan ahead. Sorry but purchasing grade does on purpose when purebreds can be had for twice as much is not a good plan. Keeping your herd small and milking a handful of does is certainly a smarter plan than milking does who make you less. Yes it costs the same to get that gallon of milk out of whatever you milk, but wouldn't you want to get paid for it in the end with saleable kids? And why is Susanne with all the homework she did to start her herd, end up with Nubians, the same bloodlines I have and doing exactly the same things I am doing? Because before she got all upset with me, she listened. She certainly doesn't have a barn full of grade does, far from it.

The list to getting that gallon of milk is certainly alot longer than what is listed above. And the rub here is at some point do you get to make a profit at anything you do by adding labor? A sure fire way to see a hobbiest.

So yes, get a doe or two for famly milk, enjoy the milk, make soap, cheese...but know if you start out right, with registered clean stock, in the spring when you have kids for sale they can be sold for $250 and up and not $100...add a show or two throughout the year and the prices rises, appraise and it goes higher than that.

Cat, I did read a whole lot into your post, because most people who have dairy goats do start out terrible, you then learn with your first goats, and most folks who buy a few nice does who don't want pedigree or show stock, always seem to be at the first show of the spring with those goats! Please don't disregard everything that Doc and I said...even if you don't go after pedigree papers on your new stock, do make sure you have heatlh papers with them. Vicki

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Vicki McGaugh
Nubian Soaps
North of Houston TX
www.etsy.com/shop/nubiansoaps

A 3 decade dairy goat farm homestead that is now a retail/wholesale soap company and construction business.

Susanne....you've been getting away with your direct attacks on this forum far too often......one of these days you're going to have to get called on it.....

Everyone needs to purchase new stock at one time or another.....sometimes that means a complete revamp of your stock because what you thought might work isn't taking you where you wanted to go. There is nothing wrong with that and certainly at some point in time everyone goes thru a period of time where new bloodlines need to be brought in. Knowing what it is you want to breed for and working toward that is certainly respectible......knowing what to cull and when to add certainly is too.

In this particular dicussion apparently the use of the word "elite" has been used to denote those who breed purebred,registered animals......and guess what......in that case that "dirty word" would apply to you. Tho' in your definitition of elite certainly wouldn't apply to since you've purchased just about everything you have and yes, have spent thousands of dollars doing so.

As for the original post.......
Cheap, healthy grades that milk well are hard to come by because they are just that.......cheap and don't bring in much income for the time spent on them. A lot of people start out with grades and realize that it's far easier and more economical for them to raise purebreds because they are easier to sell and in most cases can be sold for far more than grades. Not all grades are good producers just like not all purebreds are good producers. Getting a grade will not ensure you a healthy animal that produces well just as buying a purebred will not do the same thing. You just plain have to trust the person you're buying from and THAT is what it boils down to.

That said.......I just sold a purebred yearling doe that was milking 12lbs/day for $250 after she left I received notice from ADGA that she was milking enough to have received her Superior Genetics designation. Of course I expected this doe to BE a heavy milker........it was after all in her genetics. However......I could have been wrong because not all traits are always passed on. Hence the reason animals are culled. So no.......not all purebreds are expensive and not all of them are crappy milkers.

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Australian Cattle Dogs & Custom Artwork
http//LisaAmbrose.com

Well, I guess I'm safe from the "snide comments" - I do own my own "home bred" champions - but of course, I had to start with someone else's goats - who doesn't? - and now, plenty of new breeders have started now with MY goats. I get just as excited when I see one of my ex goats winning for someone else, or see my herdname in the genetics of a champion as when I watched my kids stumble through their first 4H shows a dozen years ago.

The absolute truth is, with grade goats and mixed breedings between breeds, you CAN NOT predict the outcome. I have a PhD in molecular biology, did research in genetics for a number of years, and I can guarantee you, you can not outbreed my production goats with your backyard mistakes, oops, your grade goats. You look at an animals pedigree, LA score, and if that animal comes from stock that has milk records, you can predict how your progeny will do when breeding lines together. I've culled out my poor milkers over the years (very few), to "homesteaders" who want a family milker, and they breed their goats to whatever billy is around and I thank my lucky stars those animals are not registered in any herd book, because it would embarrass me. To breed an animal to whatever is available is just poor husbandry.

The truth is, the OP can't find unregistered stock. That is stated in the first message. She asks why. Breeders tell her why - BECAUSE MORE PEOPLE ARE INTERESTED IN THE QUALITY YOU CAN PROVE WITH REGISTERED STOCK. You can go to the AGDA site and look at the statistics of registered breeders and the number of registered stock. Look at the milk records. Look at appraisal scores. Numbers are hard to argue with. Simple fact: More people are interested in good registered purebred goats than backyard nannies. People want to know what they're getting when they invest in an animal that is going to provide them with food and possibly an income. Most breeders will sell unregistered stock if you ask them. You may try asking them nicely, instead of attempting to insult their intelligence with assinine comments about elitism. What is being passed around as elite breeding sounds a lot like envy from this side of the fence.

And for anyone's information, you won't find a healthier herd than mine. Aside from one old doe who has reoccuring bouts with a thiamine deficiency, not one of my animals has been "medicated", aside from routine vaccinations and wormings, in years. This is a show string of two dozen animals, exposed to who-knows-what by visiting buyers and show barns. You buy one of my animals, you know you're going to get a healthy animal with a strong milk line, able to sustain her health and milkability for a decade, and give you nice kids to boot. Beat that.

As a newbie who just lost her first doe to ignorance (as far as I know anyway) I am completely nervous to pay out the nose for a doe as I may totally screw up and end up killing her! My La Mancha is registerable, but not, my oberhasli's were (one of those is the one that just died), but my boer buck and Nubians are grade.

The deal with me though is that I do not intend to keep or sell any of the kids for breeding stock. They are for meat. I want the milk from my does to supplement my soap making hobby and I'd like to experiment with cheese making too. That's why I chose a boer buck to breed with dairy does.

I think after I have more experience I would like to get some good does and a buck. But for now I am in the experimental stage, and not rolling in the dough either.

I'm learning a lot, like how boers do not do well in the wet. you have to pay special attention to thier hooves in this area. Also I learned the hard way about having a worming/vaccination plan.

I confess that I will have to sell out sometime if I want to get serious and get good stuff, but right now, I'm good with grades, thanks.

kids

the consence here is, don't look down to people that only have their nanny goats or what ever you want to call unregistered stock. they are not less worth because of it.
and last at not least this is a HOMESTEADING FORUM isn't it?

__________________
Susanne Stuetzler
Ain-ash-shams
Nubian Dairy Goats

please visit us at
http://www.ain-ash-shams.net

There's no question about whether or not there are good grade animals out there - I own a couple myself. The question asked and answered was why the original poster couldn't find any unregistered animals. Is that so very hard to understand? Sure, it's a homesteading forum - but how many of us "homesteaded" our property? Come on, it's the 21st century. We can practice 21st century husbandry.

I don't show goats, and have a small herd of mutts. But even I know that you have to get a goat pregnant to get milk. Therefore I must breed my does every fall. Does that make me a breeder? Heck no!

A breeder, in the truest sense, is not looking to make themselves famous or rich. They are people who love the breed of goat that they have chosen to breed and are looking to IMPROVE their stock. Goat shows are not a popularity contest- they are a way to have your stock evaluated against the standard for that breed- to let you know how well your breeding strategy is leading to production of the "perfect" goat of that breed. If it is a dairy breed, then milk production is obviously important. And in order to get that production, you need to have correct udder placement, attachment, leg structure etc etc. If goats are winning shows, it is because they are coming closer to the perfect ideal goat of that breed compared to the rest in the show, not because their owners are snobs or elitists.

I have the greatest respect for all of you who are working to maintain and improve our wonderful purebred goat breeds. Thank you.

Well...not sure I want to step in here or not, but I am feeling particularly suicidal so why not?

We have both.....papered and non. Why do we have both? I don't know...lol No, I do know but it is hard to put it into words properly.
A little background, I suppose, for those who don't know me. We've had goats for a decade on the farm now. They started out as my younger sister's 4-H project..Surprise! First doe was a grade Saanen doe with horns. Well, they can't have horns. So she got a pygmy wether. Lost him to entero from the looks of it (we've been vaccinating for CD/T ever since). She then got a Grade Nubian doe. I purchased a sale barn purchase the neighbor's had made as my goat purchase. We took in a stray Nubian doe (most likely a Sale Barn escapee). Most of our goats descend from those first five does in one way or another. You don't need papers to show in 4-H. Hannah showed her Nubian doe and took grandchampion. She showed the daughter out of that Nubian doe and a LaMancha/Alpine buck we used for two years. He came from another 4-Her. Good production but the fore udders are...well, they aren't so pretty. That daughter is my favorite milking doe in the herd hands down.
Anyways, registered stock joined the herd last year in the form of a Purebred Polled Nubian buckling for less than $75 and an NOA Grade Alpine doe for $65.
So our registered isn't the hottest stuff around...except for a wonderful purchase made this summer of a Nubian buckling out of a first freshener with wonderful breeding. He was what we could afford right now. We've worked hard with him too and it looks like we will be able to use him for breeding, but he will never look like a spectacular goat because of his issues when he first arrived.
He will be able to breed and that is the important part.
Getting off track.
We have not spend over $125 purchase price for any one goat yet...unless you count in travel expenses. I've driven to KS, MO, MI, and down into TN for some of our goats. Admittedly I plan on an annual trip to KS anyways, and why not haul some goats on the way home?

Up until this point there hasn't been a big need for a market for extra kids. The wethers were sold cheap cheap cheap or shipped for meat at the end of the year. Well, we still sell just about every wether at the end of the year for meat, and they bring in more than most of their dams cost us for original purchase. 5 years ago I graduated from high school. At that point, the herd had been sold down to a comfortable hobby herd. We had sold some family milkers that year and sold off all but four of that years does (out of 24 kids) as well. We still had around 14 does. I have spent the last five years online educating myself as much as possible. I research like crazy. We are coming to a point where those grades are just about covering their own butts as far as money goes. Our dairy cow herd supports them otherwise.
This coming year...well, 50+ breeding does is a lot. We will be selling doelings this year. We can only charge what we can find buyers for. In this area...registered doesn't mean diddly. For those that it does mean something they are not using the same lines I am looking at so they aren't going to be as interested in my goats. I cannot expect to find people to purchase dairy kids for more than $100 a piece.
Yet, I am still working towards a small registered herd...why? Because at some point I might enjoy showing...at some point I might have nice enough animals and the energy required to market those animals over the internet and be able to get a higher price for kids....because papers show you lineage. That is the biggest reason right there. Papers show lineage. Show you what genetic potential that animal has. We have registered Jerseys and identified Jersey/Norwegian Red crosses. Now why would we spend money to identify those crosses? Because of the genetic value they carry. Because we can point to their granddams and say there, she was a great milker and had longevity and check out that classification score. It is on record with a reputeable breed association (AJCA). My great-great-great-great (maybe one more) grandfather brought the first regsitered Jerseys West of the Appalchian Mountains. Our Jerseys and crosses trace back to that original herd (except maybe one or two). Do we get more for our cows? Nope...but then we don't sell cows. The farm has gotten more in the past though and we've had some really high selling cows due to milk testing numbers, showing, etc. Other exhibitors would come wanting to buy those cows that beat theirs. We just don't have the numbers currently.

Boy, where did the point go in all this rambling?

One other point. I have no money......Dad sees me with the "expensive" stock in the future, but my future is so up in the air, making an investment now does not make sense.

Our grades are to the point (with a lot of tweaking and work- five years of it now) where they earn back most of what we spend on them..their milk production affects it but it is the meat we sell.
I have some wonderful milking does and I hope to sell future family milkers this year and maybe maybe a future show doe for a 4-Her, but beyond that I have to look at the reality of the local market. I've started up with soap making and that is quite fun and I have an outlet for it already established so that should help.
Animals cost money....you can only lose money for so long before it is no longer fun.

Breeders who have the papered stock have generally been in it longer than others. They stuck with it and found a way to survive and be able to enjoy their livestock. They've dealt with just about everything you can think of one way or another. Boo-hissing them does not do anyone any favors.

Testing is the biggest issue with relation to price though. You get what you pay for as it were. You have to know what you are looking for in a deal. Our kid prices are going up this coming year. We tested for CAE. We are starting CAE prevention this coming spring. Raising kids on prevention is lot more time consuming and expensive (depending on our cows) than just leavng them on their dams. I'll be able to sell healthy, well started kids and hopefully save someone some grief down the road.

Enough babbling..there may be something somewhere in all that....

Roseanna
http://www.freewebs.com/morningmistherd