Took my 2 goats to be bred, now one is dead

HilltopDaisy · #21 11/08/06, 10:47 PM

My thoughts are thus ~ Ask yourself what you would do.

First off, I am so anal that I would not let my buck go anywhere without me. I love him.

Secondly, if I were to take in someone else's goats for breeding (which I would not do), I would feel 10000% obligated to keep them safe. If you brought your doe here and it got out and was killed, I would be mortified and I would do ANYTHING to make it up to you. It sounds like this is what is happening.

I am so sorry this happened. Take the time you need to decide what is best for you.

Ark · #22 11/09/06, 06:38 AM

Your goat is going to be VERY unhappy if you take her home and she doesnt have another goat for a buddy.

I would accept the breeder's offer for that reason.

trob1 · #23 11/09/06, 07:29 AM

nursefarmer, sorry you had that experience with your pygmies. I am a breeder of pygmy goats and am getting into showing. I know alot of show people here in the south and am not sure what kind of show people you delt with but the ones I know do not board there does, they kid right at home , most with little to no assistance. The main cause of pygmy birthing problems is a doe being overfed and the kids are too large to pass them. With any goat a fat goat is a problem in kidding. I have been really learning alot about showing and breeding and years ago the pygmies had alot of problems with kidding and most breeders realized they get overweight very easily so food needs to be rationed. You aparently purchased your goats from someone who didnt care for their animals and I would bet they didnt stay in the show circuit long. Also if someone sells a show goat, pregnant and to an inexperienced person something is up. Alot of breeders will sell their does who have had problems with kidding or getting bred and the good ones will inform you of the problems and tell you they are for pet only. The bad ones, well you already know what can happen. Luckily today you can go online and check to see how many live kids a doe has had and when.

Also it must have been along time ago if the desired show pygmy was the shortest,most compact as that is no longer desired. Lenth of body is very important and a compact pygmy will not place in the show ring.

With any breed of goat choose a buck to breed to does that is the same breed or a breed of the same size to breed.

trob1 · #24 11/09/06, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbbuddy

Well, I think my goat got out to get to her mama, and that was when the coyotes got her.
You know, I never even thought about them not being safe, she is a long time breeder, supposed to be an expert, with alot of goats.

I guess I should not have assumed safety...
so Happy Farmer, you think it's ok for me to go with two does and come home with one, and a "promise" of future breeding?

I don't want to be vengeful in any way, but I also don't want to be a sap...

This very thing could have happened at your own home and then who would have been to blame. Accidents do happen and I think a free breeding is generous of her. I am glad you didnt loose them both and think you should start looking for a buddy for her and maybe find one old enough to be bred with that free breeding. If this lady has to replace your doe over something she could not have prevented then I would guess she won't be offering stud service to anyone anymore. I would bet if she still offers it now she will have a contract for the person to sign stating she is not responsible for the safty of your animal while on her property. I would have already had that myself. Every day I have with my goats is a blessing and I know I am not garenteed tomorrow. If I were you and I didnt feel my other goat was safe with her I would be getting her home now but if you know in your heart it was not a safty issue leave her there, be looking for her a buddy and look forward to babies in the spring.

homebirtha · #25 11/09/06, 08:20 AM

I'm sorry for your loss.

What about this. Does she have a Nigerian buckling she would give you? I would think she would probably have more high-quality bucklings then she would does, so maybe you could even get a better quality buck. Then find yourself a Nubian doe and use the buckling on her to get your kinder stock.

moonspinner · #26 11/09/06, 08:23 AM

As a breeder who does offer boarding for stud service (ONLY in limited cases where I personally know the owner and their herd and people can prove CAE neg status) I would feel devastated if anything happened to a goat in my care. If she's offering you a replacement doe at least equal to the quality of the one you lost I'd take her up on it. If she's willing to look around for another, I'd consider that too, if it would be something you'd want - making sure of course, you personally checked out the other farm and health of the animals.

Blue Oak Ranch · #27 11/09/06, 09:36 AM

I'm sorry to hear of your loss....it's hard to lose a friend. But, accidents happen to us all - no matter how "expert" or how long we've had goats.

The breeder does sound like she wants to make it right for you...give her a chance.

It's risks like this as to why I won't board does to be bred or lease out a buck, along with biosecurity. An owner has to come to my ranch with a) clean health certificate, b) CAE neg test results in hand, and c) a doe in standing heat. She goes in a small pen outside the perimeter fence, and I'll bring the buck out. The doe stays for 2-3 matings, and then she's back in the truck. No animals are ever left alone. I state, in writing, that there are no guarantees on live births, sex, or number of offspring, and that the owner gets one free breed back on the next heat if the first didn't take (as per ADGA trade practice recommendations). If the doe isn't in standing heat, she doesn't stay and she comes back when she is. I've had people say it's too much trouble, but I don't really care. My responsibility is to my animals.

Cheers!

Katherine

fcnubian · #28 11/09/06, 11:20 AM

Sorry you lost your goat.

I would accept the breeders offer and take a replacement your doe is going to be very lonely.

Also I can understand why the breeder wouldnt want to move her buck around, you say she has a show herd (champions ect) IF i had a buck at of the best quality does that get 1st places champions ect ect I wouldnt take that buck ANYWHERE. all does would come to be bred, with health papers. Cae testing to. And if any looked to be sick, they wouldnt be allowed to be unloaded on the property. And they would be quaranteened before being with the buck.

I currently have show nubians, and pet pygmys. And a pygmy buck. I will allow people to use him for stud, but only if they carry health papers.

bbbuddy · #29 11/09/06, 11:42 AM

Thank you all for your condolences.

Well as I said in my first post, the breeder was offering options, she felt very badly. It was just too soon for me to think about or make a decision about, I was still absorbing the bad news...

I don't think Sugar should come home alone, as many of you have stated, she would be very unhappy.

I will ask the breeder what SHE wants to do, loan me a wether until we have babies, or give me a doe or doeling, which SHE had suggested. Maybe she would loan me a wether until babies are born in the spring, and then trade it for a buckling. Then I would have an unrelated buckling for my own breeding.

About the disease issue...she KNEW where the goats had been before, with no outside contact, and she KNEW they were now on a property where there would be no disease, as no goats had ever lived here before, and again, no outside contact. The mama goat had already been in contact with her herd, as she bred her last year. Disease must be caught, and they couldn't catch it here or where they had been...
That is why no health certs needed...we had discussed all this, the arrangement wasn't made in a vacuum.

PygmyLover · #30 11/09/06, 11:50 AM

Well if all are in agreement in the situation then I think you may have a solution.

My only concern really was you demanding something of her and causing more problems. I understand you are stressed and upset, that makes us all (including myself!) to not thinking clearly and not act as we normally would.

Discussing options with her, without laying blame on her, is a great idea and I think everyone will end up winners in the end.

I am sorry you lost your doe.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #31 11/09/06, 12:55 PM

From another breeders point of view: if she has a replacement doe take her. 50 goats may sound alot to you, but in a true show home with breeding stock, it isn't that many goats. I wouldn't be able to compensate you with a doe right now if this happened at my farm, I would give you a doe kid next spring of equal pedigree, does at most farms right now are bred, and anything that is not important to the bloodline has been sold. But you would also have a contract in your hand right now that stated I accept no responsiblity for your goat while it is here. Parts of livestock contracts, really the before the contact part deals with trust...she didn't know you and you didn't know her to have any trust...now with a dead goat you don't trust her less because you never trusted her to begin with. Why contracts for any aspect of goating are needed.

My bucks only are leased to farms from those who purchased from me, I know the folks and I know the animals...and my older valuable bucks and new bucks I will be keeping until they prove themselves don't go anywhere.

The only does boarded here, came from my farm, mostly belong to 4H kids, now lots of outside breedings go on..hand breeding no boarding.

I wouldn't cut off my nose to spite my face though. You have no idea what you will do in goats in the future. ----ing off an older breeder isn't smart. Most of us have our fingers in all aspects of goating, and later on you may need this person. All of us have sold goats to folks who want family milkers only to be helping them 2 years later, prep their goats for shows!

Take the replacement in the spirit in which it is intended. This is all part of owning and raising livestock, it will not be your last problem or your last death. And who are you going to call other than her when you have a problem on your farm? A vet

Certainly she did not do this on purpose. And it is a small problem I have with those who think there are no accidents anymore.

Vicki

debitaber · #32 11/09/06, 01:48 PM

I AM SO SORRY FOR YOUR LOSS. thsi is such a sad accident. I really feel for you. you know i don't breed my fdoes until they are a year and a half old. can you breed them at 7 months?
again, I am so sorry for your loss.

bbbuddy · #33 11/09/06, 02:11 PM

Once again, for those that seem to have missed it before, I have NEVER demanded anything or acted in any way other than obviously unhappy at getting the bad news. Would you not be unhappy to hear your goat was dead?

The worst I said was "oh no!" "What happened?"
I never blamed her, I never said I blamed her. I was just sharing with you all my bad news.
And I have not talked to her since I got the news.

It was the BREEDER who was offering options to me, and I told her it was too early for me to think about. I was still digesting the news of my little goat being killed.

I'm not sure why the posts about me being demanding or possibly ----ing off the breeder, I can only attribute that to people not paying attention to what they have read.

nursefarmer · #34 11/09/06, 02:29 PM

Trobl,just a quick note,then enough about the past...I got into the breed in the early 1990's,I went to shows from MA to PA.I am delighted "length of body" is now so important with NPGA.As I was phasing out of the breed,I even witnessed an NPGA judge-who had been such for some length of time,"quitting" the pygmies...her doe was the only one who did NOT give me a dystocia,her animals were losing out to the boxy,shorter does who WERE having problems,SHE was ethical,and chose not to succomb to the "peer pressure"of the show ring,I admire her much,to this day.If you search some older 'MEMO' s you WILL read some pretty sad realizations written by JUDGES and a few by LONG TERM NPGA breeders about how saddened,and let down they are because the breed was heading for a crash,they reflect on how the breed is really hurting itself by partaking in these shortest,boxyest,square,mac truck type animals(Here we go-one more comment..)I totally AGREE with you about fat (oh,exuse me,"over conditioned" ) does experiencing kidding problems in regards to milk fever,hypoglycemia,and the like.But getting through nursing school,and assisting with many educational "how to dress off a goat" type classes...There is one thing I know...the BONE of a doe's birth canal does not change significantly wether she's Star Jones 'before',or Star Jones 'after".A human example would be the hip span of a woman of Asian desent vs the same type of woman who was of european desent.Regardless of how many fat cells each had,the unchanging clincher would be the hard BONE STRUCTURE measurement-in CM of the pelvic opening.Again,I agree with all the complications that may occur on a chemical/molecular level with a chubby doe,but,I am sorry,pelvic bone opening,is just that-BONE,and if a pygmy's canal is too small to fit a kid through,I firmly doubt losing some pounds will make her birth canal opening significantly larger.and grant her the coveted title of 'easy kidder'.
PS(I am truely elated that they ARE asking you breeders to show 'length 'these days.The east coast NPGA shows,and CLINICS I attended NEVER mentioned this,the words they over used insanely,were,"cobby","stout",beefy","square".) I am glad you have healthy,well conformed mini caprines,I wish you continued success,and I hope no one will have to endure a kidding season like we had,during winter in
the barn and in the basement,by the heat lamps with the vet,weeping prayers for these poor pygmy does,that never were heard.

trob1 · #35 11/10/06, 07:11 AM

Nursefarmer, You misunderstood what I said about an overfed doe. This is what I said
(The main cause of pygmy birthing problems is a doe being overfed and the kids are too large to pass them.) Overfeeding a pregnant goat will produce large kids. However it is know that a fat doe has a hard time getting her pelvis to open up due to fat deposits so yes a fat doe can have more problems than a doe in proper condition.
A 1.5 lb baby passes much easier than a 5 lb baby. My pygmy does last year were all first freshners and bred too early due to buck getting out. They ranged in age from 14 and 16 months at kidding and babies were as follows. First doe to kid had one 5 lb buck and one 3 lb buck with no assistance. Second doe had one 2.5 lb buck and one 2 lb doe with needed assistance with the doe as she was backwards and head was stuck. Third doe had one 4 lb doe and spit her out with out so much as a scream. Now my goats were over fed due to the fact I didnt know they were pregnant early on and when I did know I slowed the feed down but the babies were still big. Thankfully even though the babies were big they all 3 kidded without problem. My goats are NPGA registered and out of show stock. Now I am done and am giving back the tread to the person it belongs to. Sorry bbbuddy!