How old are these kids???

I totally appreciate the variety of opinion on here, folks - it is the beauty of this type of forum, isn't it? I can appreciate that we all different styles and different standards, so it's cool for me to be able to hear what everyone suggests and then find what works for me. (kinda like raising my babies).

We got quite a bit of milk into the one guy at all 3 feeds today - he still won't suck, but he quite happily lets us squirt it into his mouth. I bet you he would drink it from the bowl. We will try this tomorrow. He was lapping it up last night from the open bottle, without a nipple.
We will do the yoghurt thing, I think. The research I have done also states that it is the same active culture as a probiotic. The large animal vet is calling me back tomorrow with his advice/recommendations. I'll let you know what he says.
We have given them access to hay and water - they are interested in both. We gave them a bit of grain today a couple of times, too, and they ate it. Things seem pretty good.
)
thanks - jodi

They seem to be doing fine.....Good Luck to you!

You can still take the horns off. If the dehorning iron (it will need to be good and hot) wont fit over at all, then trim the tips off with a clean (as in bleached and scrubbed) pair of hooftrimmers or pruning shears, and then burn, take off the ring of horn tissue, and burn some more. I have done it more times than I'd like to admit.

Probios is merely freezedried intestinal digestive beneficial bacteria---some of them the very same that are found in yogurt. It is a natural product. The reason probiotic products are better than plain yogurt is that yogurt, especially storebought, does not contain enough of the beneficial bacteria at all. Even for humans. The probotics contain MANY more types of bacteria that are natural to the rumen, and in quantities that will make a huge difference in outcome. The amount of types, and the quantity of what is contained is vastly better in the probiotics. Actually, yogurt can be considered a probiotic---the word itself can be applied to kefir as well. Just a question of degree.

When I had to be on a very powerful antibiotic than can actually CAUSE ulcerative colitis due to complete wiping out of intestinal flora, I remembered that I had learned that probiotics were good for my goats and got some for myself. I had had ulcerative colitis as a young adult and was not up for a repitition of that hell on earth. I got myself some human-type probiotics and took them an hour or so after ingesting the antibiotic, and I had NO problems at all. I also ate yogurt, but I seriously doubt that would have been enough, as it never had been before, for me.

I hope that explains why it is better to use probiotics than just plain store bought yogurt.

CD&T is for immunizing against enterotoxemia (over eating)and tetnus-you can order it-some feed stores carry it-or your vet can probably give it too them for you.They should at least have the tetnus part-prior to banding or dehorning-if you are going to do these things-some people never give this, and have no problems-sometimes you can still loose a kid to entro, even w/the shots-so it's kinda one of those "own opinion" things- i used to not give it-then lost a young buck and a 4 month old kid too it, w/in a week of each other-now the does get it 3-4 weeks b-4 they kid-kids get it at 4 weeks old, 4 weeks later-then once a year.

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Mammaof3
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I have done this too. Its not fun, but it does work and the kids had smooth heads afterwards.

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Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Nubians & Lamanchas
www.ozarkjewels.net

"Remember, no man is a failure, who has friends" -Clarence

Some people have suggested using cud from another goat as an alternative for probios if you don't have access to it in Canada.

You should not take a probiotic with an antibiotic. Why? because it defeats the purpose of the antibiotic. Just think Pro is the opposite of Ani.

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Try covering his eyes with your hand while he has the bottle in his mouth. I had one that would chew on the nipple and never would suck unless you covered his eyes. I think he was on his mamma before I got him so took some time to get him to take the bottle. Good luck with your babies. They are so much fun!

Looks to be about 3 weeks old. I would feed them regular whole cow milk from the store instead of a milk replacer. Sometimes milk replacer can cause diarrhea. Also you need to get a cocci prevention going on these babies. It is time to give them their first Cd/T shot and worm with some Valbazen at 1 cc/10# body weight orally. You want to repeat the Cd/T shot and worming every 21 days until they have had a series of 3. When they are 12 weeks old or older you can start deworming with Cydectin orally. You can introduce a little grain to them or medicated goat pellet at this time along with providing some hay to chew on. They are probably going to be more interested in milk for several months. I would give these kids a round of 40% Dimethox, main reason because they came from an auction barn and it is a good Sulfa Drug/broad spectrum antibiotic, good for lots of things. I would give them 1 cc/10# body weight the first day and 1/2 cc per 10# body weight days 2-5. I use Decoxx-M 1 tsp in their morning bottle for cocci prevention. That one kid that isn't wanting to take his bottle, you might try putting him in a pen without anything to eat or drink most of the day and then try the bottle. He is probably hard headed and used to a teat. Some have a problem transitioning to a bottle. They are really cute. I hope they do well for you.

I respectfully disagree with the statement that you do not give a probiotic at the same time you are giving and antibiotic. If you are giving an antibiotic to a ruminant it not only kills off the bad bacteria, it also kills off the flora or good bacteria in the gut. The probiotic helps to replace the good bacteria in order to keep the kid's rumen working. One probiotic is called Probios, it is a blue gel and you can order it from www.jeffersonline.com. There is a powdered probiotic called Fastrack also. In a pinch you can use yogurt. Active live bacteria to help the rumen work.

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Christine Edwards
New Waverly, Texas
www.freewebs.com/cottoneyeddoes
www.freewebs.com/texstarboers

I am totally against pumping young kids full of chemicals - even ones "good" for them. Especially kids that are potentially stressed from this type of situation. Would you do that to your children? I think not!

Give them time to grow a bit get acclimated etc.

This year is the first year I have ever given CD/T and that is only because I want to sell for a little "profit" (yah right!) For years previous I never did anything and they were all fit as a fiddle.

Treat them like animals but also like your children and you will have a happy medium.

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The purpose or need for an antibiotic itsn't to kill all bacteria but it does just that anyway. We want it to kill the "bad" bacteria but in order for it to do that, it has to wipe all bacteria out of our systems completely. If you don't take a probiotic supplement while on antibiotics and for a while afterwards, you have a huge risk of developing an overgrowth of candida yeast. This, in turn, causes a hundred and one different problems with human beings that many people never realize is from a bacterial imbalance. We do not want to be without our beneficial bacteria so by all means, all people and animals should be on a probiotic during antibiotic use. I might add, that after trying the doctor's prescription "fix" for my son's case of oral thrush and having it NOT work, I used infact probiotic powder, added to his cereal once a day and after a couple of weeks, it went away and it didn't come back either. It took some patience but the problem wasn't getting better with the prescription. The problem was obviously from inside his body and the good bacteria put the yeast in its place.

Are the "Chemicals" you are referring to the probiotics, or the CD &T? It is not clear from your post.

I am not trying to be argumentive, but I do want to be sure that folks new to goats get correct information.

Some goatkeepers never vax for anything, and do fine.

But, should an animal or a human need an anirbiotic due to a bacterial infection, then the benefits absolutely outweigh the risks. One of the risks od antibiotic therapy, as Milking Mom, Milk n' Honey and myself have pointed out, is that the antibiotic---which is ANTI the bad bacteria, unfortunately does not discriminate and also wipes out the needed GOOD bacteria.

Probiotics are not chemicals in the sense that you are portraying them, if that is what you are referring to. Probiotics are a natural substance derived from natural food sources. Lactofermented and fermented foods such as kefir, REAL sauerkraut, kimchi, miso, and the yogurt you yourself recommended are ALL probiotics. By recommending yogurt, you were recommending a PROBIOTIC.

The probiotic pastes and powders consist of large quantities of the actual natural rumen bacteria (or for humans, intestinal flora, bactera) that are absolutely essential for the health of the goat. When a goat's rumen is depopulated of the BENEFICIAL bacteria---which the ANTIbiotic is not intended to kill but does, it can lead to scouring, goat polio (because the goat's beneficial bacteria are necesary for the metabolism of thiamine, an essential B vitamin) and other problems.

Just because one is call ANTIbiotic and one is called PRObiotic does not mean they are working at cross purposes to one another. That is why I said to give the probiotic about an hour to and hour and a half after the antibiotic. Giving it at the same time will only be wasteful as the antibiotic will kill the probiotic bacteria as quickly as the natural bacteria in the rumen that the probiotic is intended to replenish. Believe me, I've done it both ways and the the goats being given the probiotics did AMAZINGLY better in all ways.

I hope that I stated that in an understandable way. Again, I am not trying to be argumentative or confusing.

this is the post I was referring to.

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I would take the snotty kids temp before giving antibiotics. Normal I think is 101-103. I don't like to give antibiotics unless necessary. If there is no temp, usually there is no infection so why give the meds? Just my way of thinking. Also, the kids rumen doesn't really start working until around 3 months. So my thought is the probiotic(yogurt) won't hurt them, but won't necessarily help either at this point. I would try to find a good "goat drench". There are several brands and they have extra vitamins etc that might give them a needed boost after the stress of auction. Just my 2 cents!...

yes that makes more sense in this situation.

You need to be very careful with their developing rumen or you can cause MORE problems - I KNOW!

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FYI, Milking Mom and I use this same program for our goats and, speaking for myself, I have seen great improvement in my herd.

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Diane Rhodes
Feral Nature Farm
LaManchas, MiniManchas and Boers