No Such Thing as CL-Free?

The Tin Mom · #41 08/04/12, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForMyACDs

Not so. If the CL abcess is in the lungs and bursts it can be coughed on to herd mates!!

This is the information that I had, as well.

TRAILRIDER · #42 08/04/12, 09:30 AM

I wonder why Biotracking (bioPRYN) only tests for CAE and pregnancy?

Minelson · #43 08/04/12, 09:40 AM

The vets here say that CL is everywhere...in the soil and in the hay. That is why I am leaning towards trying the vaccine. My goats are pets. I'm just afraid of mine being the guinea pigs of a new vaccine. I wish someone could say something to erase that fear so I could go ahead and do it. My goat vet told me to vaccinate with the sheep CL vaccine a few months ago before this new goat vaccine came out.
I think I'm going to do it. I would feel just awful if one of them got CL when a simple vaccination would prevent it. Just like I would feel awful if one of my dogs got Parvo because I didn't vaccinate. Just like I would feel awful if one of my goats got pneumonia when there is a vaccination available.
I just wish the CL vx wasn't so new!!!

UGH!!!!!!!!!

Minelson · #44 08/04/12, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRAILRIDER

I wonder why Biotracking (bioPRYN) only tests for CAE and pregnancy?

Maybe because it has to be cultured and not a serum...they might not have the equipment to do cultures....and the serum test for CL is non-conclusive.

where I want to · #45 08/04/12, 10:10 AM

Minelson- my vet said the same. In fact one vet told me that the reason the earlier vaccines were not very effective is that there are so many strains of Coryne. The vaccines might have a lesser effect against some than against other strains.
Since my goats are pretty mcuh homebodies, I think I will wait awhile to see how the new vaccine does.

Minelson · #46 08/04/12, 11:24 AM

I just emailed Jeffers and asked them for the actual number of sales of the new vaccine...

where I want to · #47 08/04/12, 12:47 PM

I know you'll share any info.

Minelson · #48 08/04/12, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by where I want to

I know you'll share any info.

You bet!

PaulNKS · #49 08/04/12, 03:27 PM

According to the research from Langston, once you have CL, it is almost impossible to eradicate, because of how long it will live in the soil, on a stump, in the bedding, in the grass, in the hay, etc. It can be transmitted through the puss, from needles, hair clippers, gloves, etc. It is HIGHLY contagious.

With that said, I don't think there is any way to eradicate it and those that think it can be obviously have not read any of the research findings.

In cases such as ours, we had a CL free meat herd. We used to sell to individuals. Now we have too many kids each year so it is easier and more profitable to sell them through a monthly goat sale at the St. Joe Stockyards. When selling commercially, CL is NOT a big deal. If you get it in your herd, then you have no choice but to learn how to manage it. Because once you have it, you'll always have it on the premises. That doesn't mean that any other animals will get it.

!8 months ago, we bought 5 Alpines from a supposedly CL free herd. Since then one disappeared (most likely big cat), and one drowned (long story). The other three have had lumps once. When they get the lumps, I separate the doe from the rest of the herd. I lance it, collect it, destroy it. I haven't tested and don't know if it is CL or not. Since they came from a CL herd, I would say it is most likely not CL. But, I haven't tested and I won't test. I have realized that Langston is reliable and credible in their goat research so I manage the herd as if I have CL whether I have it or not. None of the meat goats have had the lumps.

For me, it is a non issue since I sell commercially and not locally or individually.

It is ignorance that leads people to believe it can be eradicated.

By the way, the difference in the attitude is in the way the goat is perceived. My goats are NOT pets. They a revenue producing asset. If they didn't make money, they wouldn't be here. I like them and yes I get attached, but they are not pets here.. just another asset like any other animal.

copperpennykids · #50 08/04/12, 04:10 PM

I just want to make a couple of statements:

First, we have a CL Free herd of Registered Boer Goats. Absolutely no abscesses ever!!

We also have incredibly nice breeding stock - lots of milk, great conformation, ease of kidding, great mothering instincts. Good clean goats can be found. You just have to be willing to look and ask the tough questions. BTW, our Boer goat herd is also CAE negative. It can be done.

As for Dairy goats - we are abscess free there as well, and CAE negative. Almost every dairy goat breeder that we know is CAE negative (there are a few that have old positives that keep them separated while harvesting genetics/kids) and definitely CL Free.

The weird thing is - that in dairy goats it is usually the po-dunk folks that have CAE positive and CL animals. Perhaps because they lack education, or shop price only, or rescue goat from the Sale barn. In Boers - it is the big-reputation, big herds that have both CL and CAE - and perpetuate the problem by selling animals that are positive in both categories. And then of course, the trickle-down effect of spreading disease as well as poor information/education and it makes it tough to eradicate the disease(s).

Keep shopping - keep looking.

Last comment. We won't buy goats from herds that vaccinate. You only vaccinate if you have a problem or exposure. You can introduce the disease with the vaccine. There is no way to know if that positive is from a positive animal or from the vaccine. Stuff that would keep me awake at 3 in the morning.... Just willing to work a little harder to bring in clean genetics from folks who are as passionate about CL Free and CAE negative as we are.

Minelson · #51 08/04/12, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by copperpennykids

You only vaccinate if you have a problem or exposure. You can introduce the disease with the vaccine.

The thing is, some of us are being told that you cannot escape exposure. Like I said before, the vets around here say that it is everywhere...in the soil and in the hay. My little herd (pets) never leave the property unless I have to take them to the vet or a wlak down the gravel roads. (or on a beer run but they didn't leave my truck

) I don't show. No other goats come on my property. We do have a lot of deer though. And I purchase hay from local farmers. It's hard enough to find non-ditch hay much less hay off a field that has never had sheep on it.
How would giving the vaccine introduce the disease if it's meant to prevent it???

I'm just trying my best to make the right decision b4 vaccinating.

where I want to · #52 08/04/12, 04:48 PM

From my own experience, it is not highly contageous. My two original does lived together for two years before the first abscess turned up. Her companion never had a titer at all- even though she was vaccinated until I decided it was not needed.
The only other animal that had CL was the CL doe's offspring. Since then I have had kids born on the place and bought at least one other doeling. No CL- no titer-no abscess -ever.
I had the original abscess cleaned out at the vet's and was careful not to let the pus contaminate my place.
But if you let CL abscesses drain where other animals can be exposed, then it will spread.
The most recent information I could get from the Merck manual, the bacteria persists for 2 months on hay, straw or wood and up to 8 months in the soil. The idea that if the pus contaminates the environment, you can't get rid of it is wrong.
Every seems to have an emotional response to this disease and everyone has to do what they feel is right. But the best way to eliminate this problem is with correct information, not repeating misinformation.

PaulNKS · #53 08/04/12, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by copperpennykids

You can introduce the disease with the vaccine.

From what I read, that isn't true at all. The vaccine is made from killed, it isn't live. If I'm wrong, I would like for someone to point me to a link since, I'm also trying to learn more about it.

PaulNKS · #54 08/04/12, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by where I want to

The most recent information I could get from the Merck manual, the bacteria persists for 2 months on hay, straw or wood and up to 8 months in the soil. The idea that if the pus contaminates the environment, you can't get rid of it is wrong.

Langston research said it can live up to 2 years, not 8 months.

where I want to · #55 08/04/12, 05:01 PM

Well- I don't know the basis for either timeframe, presuming that there was a study in supporting either, 2 years is not forever either.

ozark_jewels · #56 08/04/12, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minelson

The thing is, some of us are being told that you cannot escape exposure. Like I said before, the vets around here say that it is everywhere...in the soil and in the hay. My little herd (pets) never leave the property unless I have to take them to the vet or a wlak down the gravel roads. (or on a beer run but they didn't leave my truck

) I don't show. No other goats come on my property. We do have a lot of deer though. And I purchase hay from local farmers. It's hard enough to find non-ditch hay much less hay off a field that has never had sheep on it.

Minelson, I can't tell you what to do. I can only tell you what I *think* I'd do in your situation.

Firstly, I have heard vets, good vets, say a lot of stupid and even completely false things in my livestock owning years. Sometimes its their personal opinion, sometimes its just poor research. Sometimes they are just covering their butts. Some vets believe in using every new thing that comes along.

Did he give you a *reason* that its "everywhere" in your area?? Or is that his opinion about every area of the country?? Why would it be "everywhere", in all your soil, all your hay, etc?? That makes 0 sense to me.

Your description of how your herd is handled, no new goats, no going to other areas with goats, no neighbors with goats, is a situation that seems *highly* unlikely to expose your goats to CL. A lot less than mine for instance, as I have several neighbors with goats(not fenceline neighbors), do take my goats to public functions where people pet them and move on to other livestock, etc.

I don't think I'd just decide to vaccinate based on a vets opinion that CL bacteria is "everywhere". Think I'd need some hard proof.

But there again, its just my opinion.

PaulNKS · #57 08/04/12, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by where I want to

Well- I don't know the basis for either timeframe, presuming that there was a study in supporting either, 2 years is not forever either.

No one said that 2 years is forever. The point being that the longer it remains viable outside the host, the harder it would be to eradicate. People with commercial herds will not take the hit in trying to eradicate it. It is cheaper for the to maintain it than to take the sudden losses on eradication.

It can be managed and controlled.

Alice In TX/MO · #58 08/04/12, 06:03 PM

Cheaper isn't the goal. Health is the goal for a lot of us crazy goat ladies.

Minelson · #59 08/04/12, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozark_jewels

Minelson, I can't tell you what to do. I can only tell you what I *think* I'd do in your situation.

Firstly, I have heard vets, good vets, say a lot of stupid and even completely false things in my livestock owning years. Sometimes its their personal opinion, sometimes its just poor research. Sometimes they are just covering their butts. Some vets believe in using every new thing that comes along.

Did he give you a *reason* that its "everywhere" in your area?? Or is that his opinion about every area of the country?? Why would it be "everywhere", in all your soil, all your hay, etc?? That makes 0 sense to me.

Your description of how your herd is handled, no new goats, no going to other areas with goats, no neighbors with goats, is a situation that seems *highly* unlikely to expose your goats to CL. A lot less than mine for instance, as I have several neighbors with goats(not fenceline neighbors), do take my goats to public functions where people pet them and move on to other livestock, etc.

I don't think I'd just decide to vaccinate based on a vets opinion that CL bacteria is "everywhere". Think I'd need some hard proof.

But there again, its just my opinion.

The attitude seems to be, throw your arms up in the air, roll your eyes, no big deal. Just vaccinate against it.

It gets in the hay from sheep, deer, and machinery. It lives in the soil a long long time ( I can't remember how long he said...I have seen so many different answers to that...just like Parvo) When you get a lump you just lance it.

That sounds like very a very sound opinon Emily...thank you!

**mygoat** · #60 08/04/12, 07:15 PM

In actual studies, the longest I've EVER seen it cultured from contaminated environment is something like 8 months from 'highly contaminated' bedding/feces. I have access to studies thanks to being on MSU campus on a regular basis. I'd love to see the Langston study where it was cultured after 2 years.

As for people who say once it's in a herd it will never go a way - I don't think that's the case. Proper management has seen time and time again that it IS possible to eliminate. Otherwise, I would argue EVERYBODY to this day would have it.

Now, bacteria aren't magic. No one single bacteria will cause disease. Some diseases require THOUSANDS or HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of bacteria to cause disease. Bacteria can live a while in the environment in ideal conditions - but those 'ideal' locations are NOT common. Repetitive cleaning, rainfall, removal of soiled bedding, UV (sunlight) radiation, disinfectants, dry conditions, heat etc, will DILUTE the number of bacteria in the environment. They may still be there... but it is continually making it more and more difficult to cause disease. While wild animals are a risk, I don't believe there would be many herds that have been disease free for 10+ years if it was so worrisome. As for mechanical vectors of transmission - I believe that CAN happen, but unless you already have it on your or your neighbor's farm, I don't think you should worry about it too much. The chance that a fly lands on a cl abcess half a mile or more arway then manages to somehow infect your goats is pretty dang slim. But, within a herd, I could see how it could be relatively easy.

There are MANY issues to take into account. General herd health, exposure, biosecurity, management... A stressed/compromised animal will be more likely to pick it up. A healthy animal may fight off an infection after exposure.

Personally, Buy from herds that are 'clean'. Practice strict biosecurity and additional disease testing, if affordable. ALWAYS have an isolation pen. ALWAYS test abscess contents. It can be done, and it can be done affordably. I'm pretty frugal when it comes to the goats. I'm always trying to come up with new ways to save money. I do NOT like throwing money at my goats for the sake of 'everybody does it that way'. I do, however, like having rediculously healthy goats.

I drove 600 miles one way to buy my first boer goats from Emily. I drove 300 miles one way to get my first boer buck. They can be had...

I have NEVER had a SINGLE abscess here. Not even one to send in for testing to see if it was CL or not...I've had goats 11 years. I isolate incoming stock for 3 months with disease testing before and after isolation. The rest of the herd is done yearly. I do NOT show, and if I ever do stud services it would be with someone who could show me recent herd test results. It'd be a driveway breeding and NO, I will NOT board them. Ever.

The disease does NOT spread with the vaccine. As with any vaccine given sub-q, it can cause a localized abscess if not given correctly or if the injection site is not clean.

Also, pigeons do not spread the disease. That is a misinterpretation of the disease in horses caused by the same bacteria. In horses, it is called pigeon fever, only because the swelling of the chest causes them to look like they have a 'pigeon breast'. Also, your goats cannot get CL from your horses. There are two biotypes. Goats/sheep get one (nitrate negative), horses get the other (nitrate positive)- and cows can get a mix of them both.

I've been meaning to email about the new vaccine, and just haven't gotten around to it yet.

If CL was nothing but abscesses that popped up here and there, it would be no big deal. However, more than two internal abscesses and I believe the carcass is condemned. It causes chronic wasting, lowered productivity, unthriftiness of the adults severely affected. After an external abscess or two, the internal organs can often begin to be affected exclusively. When as many as 40% of your flock are showing signs of the diease, you can see how it affects a herd. Just imagining what it does to your breeding stock sales and productivity of your does (if you're JUST meat) makes me think trying to eliminate it, is valueable.