No Such Thing as CL-Free?

Teacupliz · #21 04/02/06, 08:31 AM

I bet the negative results were false negative. I am told by a countless number of vets that internal CL can not be passes at all.. Not threw fecal.. only can catch it by the puss of a external open sore.

Liz

ForMyACDs · #22 04/02/06, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teacupliz

I bet the negative results were false negative. I am told by a countless number of vets that internal CL can not be passes at all.. Not threw fecal.. only can catch it by the puss of a external open sore.

Liz

Not so. If the CL abcess is in the lungs and bursts it can be coughed on to herd mates!!

dosthouhavemilk · #23 04/02/06, 09:07 AM

Couldn't it also be passed through the milk if there is an internal lump in the udder that drains into the mammary system?

susanne · #24 04/02/06, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dosthouhavemilk

Couldn't it also be passed through the milk if there is an internal lump in the udder that drains into the mammary system?

yes it can. also if the abscess is in the intestine and burst it can shed through manure.
teecupliz your vets have wrong info

goatkid · #25 04/02/06, 03:12 PM

According to what I have read, CL can be transferred through internal abcesses if they are in the lungs and the goat coughs on the feed. It could also be transferred through milk if there are abcesses in the udder or urine if they are in the kidneys. There is less likelihood it can be transferred through manure because other goats usually don't eat goat berries, but I still wouldn't want to risk it, myself.

okiemom · #26 04/02/06, 03:43 PM

If you want to know more about Cl go to Chevontalk at yahoo groups.
Susan, the owner of Onion Creek Ranch knows a lot about CL and meat heards. She originally wanted all Cl goats killed, but upon education herself realized that is is more of a maintanience issue that a eradication issue. she has been working w/ Universities and drug companies to get more reasearch in CL.

A test will not help. A vaccinated goat will show up as a goat w/ CL/

If you vaccinate for Cl you could be giving your goat CL. Like any vaccine it is not 100% effetive. I do vaccinate my heard. Over time you will have fewer breakouts.

I have never seen or heard of a true case of CL passing from goat to humans. Rumors yes, but not fact.

In large herds of meat goats is is almost impossible to keep a hear free of CL. Herds in TX are 1000+ head. Small heards it is better, but there will be no money made. It is naturally occuring in the soil. Large heards can not be kept as intensively as a milk herd. You can't have goats too crowded or there will be big problems. CL is not the worst problem out there. It is gross but won't kill a whole/large number of the herd like pneumonia/cocci/worms will.

Outbreaks of CL normally means that there is stress in the herd. Too crowded, other illness, or por nutrition. if the herd is healthy CL won't be as big of a problem. if A lump is found seperate the goat and treat the lump w/ a method that works for you. Formalin has worked nicely for me It has greatly reduced the number of outbreaks and vaccination has supressed the rest.

Do educate yourselves but do it will fact from the universities that are researching goats and their diseases. Langston Un. in Ok is a great place to start.

If every goat that CL was killed there would be very few goats left.

KimM · #27 04/02/06, 06:07 PM

That is simply not true. I have a buck that was vaccinated and tested negative for CL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by okiemom

A test will not help. A vaccinated goat will show up as a goat w/ CL/

okiemom · #28 04/02/06, 07:44 PM

If there was active antigen in the vaccine then a test should pick it up. The test is just looking for immune responses. It can not tell if it was from the vaccine or the true disease. There is arguing wether the vaccine "marks" as strong as the true Cl but Cl as a vaccine will show up in a test if the vacine was given correctly. I believe Langston and the maker of the vaccine (Colorado Serum)explain how the vaccine works in reguards to retesting. Vaccine is to be given 2CC's SQ wait 4 weeks, vaccinate again (2cc's) and then once a year (2cc's) after that.

Vaccines work the same w/ humans. If we are given a vaccine, tests should show that we have made antibiodies for that disease. If we have not made anitbiodies then we are not correctly vaccinated/protected. The vaccine should be given again we are not covered properly from disease. Vaccines are also not always good for the life of the animal/person. They must be given again down the road as boosters. Saying that we all know tests can be wrong so if in doubt rerun the tests. If vaccines are bought at a feed store care should be taken as it is not unheard of for a vaccine to be ruined in the care of a feed store. Several people on the boards have run into this problem.

The cl vaccine is just now being given to goats. Before it was ONLY to be given to sheep. It was said to not work on goats but farmers gave it off label anyway. The vaccine was also said to have a fail rate of up to 20% where the vaccinated animal would Get CL from the vaccine. I have seen it where after giving the vaccine there will be a outbreak of Absesses. Then everything calms down and everyone is just fine.

This is such a complicated and heated subject that in the end each producer has to weight what he has learned from real documented sourses not just hearsay and choose the right mangt. practes for themselves. Good news is that there is lots of great news from universities and the drug companies to read.

There is more than one way to deal w/ CL. I will say that is is not the end of the world so panic is not needed. I was ther I started my first herd and bought for somone who had it in their herd and the absess ruptured bafore I knew what happened. I was one of the paniced until I tried to really become as educated about the disease as I could.

KimM · #29 04/02/06, 09:04 PM

I'm sorry but I don't agree that you can know that for a FACT. The people who I bought my buck from have been vaccinating their goats for many years....I'm sure they know how to give vaccinations properly.

I am educated enough to know that I do not want CL on my place, period. If it's not possible to have a CL-free herd then I won't be raising goats for very long. I think people should do everything they can to irradicate the disease rather than to "deal with CL". I will never knowingly purchase from anyone who manages CL, and again, will insist that any goat I purchase be tested before I drop the first dime. As far as humans contracting CL, I prefer to believe it's true since it is not curable..........better safe than sorry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by okiemom

If there was active antigen in the vaccine then a test should pick it up. The test is just looking for immune responses. It can not tell if it was from the vaccine or the true disease. There is arguing wether the vaccine "marks" as strong as the true Cl but Cl as a vaccine will show up in a test if the vacine was given correctly. I believe Langston and the maker of the vaccine (Colorado Serum)explain how the vaccine works in reguards to retesting. Vaccine is to be given 2CC's SQ wait 4 weeks, vaccinate again (2cc's) and then once a year (2cc's) after that.
.....................
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There is more than one way to deal w/ CL. I will say that is is not the end of the world so panic is not needed. I was ther I started my first herd and bought for somone who had it in their herd and the absess ruptured bafore I knew what happened. I was one of the paniced until I tried to really become as educated about the disease as I could.

barelahh · #30 08/03/12, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laura Jensen

And, FYI, CL does NOT peel off with the hide. It can be internal.

Only on organs not the meat.

barelahh · #31 08/03/12, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terre d'Esprit

Kim-

Are you saying that there is a test that can differentiate between a goat with CL and a goat that been vaccinated for CL? Like you, I would gladly pay for the test if it comes back negative, but if the buck has been vaccinated, then I was under the impression that it would come back positive regardless.

Where do you do send your tests? I think that I will have my current goats tested. I have not had so much as a lump or bump since I got the goats (a year ago), but the whole point is moot if I already have CL in the goats here.

If I did have a goat that tested positive for CL (but never showed any symptoms), and I culled it, would there still be a risk of any future goats getting it?

I feel like I've opened up a can of worms, and for every kind, patient answer, I have a zillion more questions.

Sorry, and thanks for being so patient.

T

yes it is the titer level. based on the level tells them who is vaccinated or "exposed"

Your goats can be exposed but not be infectious. A great number of goats test postive but never develop a abcess. These are immune goats. Their bodies have developed antibodies to the disease and kill it off.
The ones that develope abcesses their antibody and immune systems are too weak.

Alice In TX/MO · #32 08/03/12, 09:41 PM

Are you aware that you're digging out old threads that have been dormant for years?

To what purpose?

barelahh · #33 08/03/12, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

Are you aware that you're digging out old threads that have been dormant for years?

To what purpose?

Does it matter, has cl been eradicated? IF not then why worrry about it if it is brought back into thelight. I would say if its years since you have discussed it then your not current on the newest information.

Alice In TX/MO · #34 08/03/12, 09:54 PM

I didn't say that. If you want to start a new discussion with new links to NEW RESEARCH, go right ahead.

Yes, it does matter to me.

mpete · #35 08/03/12, 11:04 PM

Stand your ground. I am proud to say that I am CL/CAE free. I test yearly. I have the tests from several years back if a customer wants to see them. Everything that they are saying is just a bunch of malarki when they say that "every goat is sick" ....

.... and trust me, you don't want to be THAT person who is showing a potential buyer your goats and all of a sudden you notice oozy puss from a 'normally healthy goat'

It takes a lot to stand up for what is right. But it starts to spread, slowly, but it does.

KrisD · #36 08/03/12, 11:40 PM

I also do not understand a person who would not want to cull, not want to test, and not want to vaccinate but thanks they can manage the disease. You can't "manage" anything with ideas like that. To manage means to control it, how on earth is that controlling it? If people would cull their positives the disease could be erradicated. Unfortunately there are too many ignorant people out there who ignore it rather then control it.
I only buy and/or breed to disease free herds. I don't currently test for CL but will be this year. I have NEVER had a goat with an abscess ever! If I had to buy Boer goats and couldn't find disease free ones I would ship them in from another state from a clean herd.

barelahh · #37 08/04/12, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KrisD

I also do not understand a person who would not want to cull, not want to test, and not want to vaccinate but thanks they can manage the disease. You can't "manage" anything with ideas like that. To manage means to control it, how on earth is that controlling it? If people would cull their positives the disease could be erradicated. Unfortunately there are too many ignorant people out there who ignore it rather then control it.
I only buy and/or breed to disease free herds. I don't currently test for CL but will be this year. I have NEVER had a goat with an abscess ever! If I had to buy Boer goats and couldn't find disease free ones I would ship them in from another state from a clean herd.

First of all, its not necessary to kill off your goats. The disease can be managed quite well. Secondly, take for instance, angora breed. To kill off any goat that has cl or has been exposed to cl is to kill the breed. There aren't enough diverse genetics in the breed to start killing off a exposed goat.

Third a exposed goat is not a cl infected goat. IF your goat tests 1/64 it is still cl exposed, its is not at all negative like i have heard it suggested.

Fourth, as in meat herds, your idea of killing off any goat that might have a abcess would eliminate the industry. You really think they could rebuild? your asking folks to lose millions of dollars.

Fifth, the dairy herds are just as bad, been there done that, bought from "cl free" herds before and danged if they didn't have cl. Your "closed" herds are not safe. You can get cl very easily in a closed herd.

Pigeons, deer, horses, do carry and guess what, pigeons distribute it all across your property as well as deer. Think your safe? think very hard. Cause you cannot avoid it.
THats why you manage your herd. You manage it as if you have a infected herd.

IF this new vaccine is what it is said to be, then this will effectively reverse the disease in goats. Only thing is you gotta use it for it to work. Texas labs have said vaccinate a positive goat and it will end up boosting their immune system to kill off the disease.

ozark_jewels · #38 08/04/12, 08:12 AM

I had CL when I first bought goats, 12 years ago. I bought it in on a grade Nubian that I purchased at a swap-meet out of ignorance. Yes, I asked what the scar under her ear was, he lied to me and told me it was a vaccination scar.
I got rid of it, and very carefully bought clean goats.

For 11 years now I've had a CL-free herd. I've lived next to other goat herds, sheep, horses, cattle, on four different properties.

I work two herds for two different elderly long-time commercial goat owners. Both have CL. I am careful about disinfecting everything I wear and anything that goes with me there. My herd is still CL-Free after years of working these herds.

I know of 10-30 year old herds that do not have CL.

Saying that it is "easily gotten", is true......if you are not careful. But to say that everyone has it or will get it, is just silly. Unlike footrot, pnuemonia(these things can be brought on by the right situation)etc, the animals have to actually be exposed to CL pus to contract CL. And even casual exposure, I'm going to go out on a limb here, I'd guess a healthy animal could many times fight off, as they do other things.

Be very careful, but don't freak out about CL. Its just another hurdle in livestock management. One that many of us have jumped in the past and lived to tell about it with clean herds.

And no, I won't vaccinate. Not even with the new CL vaccine for goats. I don't vaccinate for *anything* I don't have to. But thats just me.

TRAILRIDER · #39 08/04/12, 08:31 AM

How accurate is the test? (That is a test done on a never vaccinated goat.)

TRAILRIDER · #40 08/04/12, 08:34 AM

I had a goat that got a cheek abcess and I was in a panic! Then I found out that "Not every abcess is CL." Don't go putting to sleep every goat that gets an abcess....see your vet first.