disbudding and mishaps

It really is good if you can see someone do it before you disbud your kids. I actually had 2 experienced friends watch me the first three kids I did. We do have a flat white spot after we scrape off the horn bud. I think I'll have my friend do the baby Nigerians when they are born this spring, mostly because I think they may be too small to fit into my box anf I'll have to hold them while she does it. If you wind up taking your goats to a vet to have it done, be sure the vet is experienced doing this to goats. A friend took his Nigerians to a vet and two of the babies wound up with burned ears and had to receive antibiotics. I don't think he had a goat tip in his iron.

Another tip is to make a criss cross over the horn bud with your iron. Anything you can do to kill chances of scur growth.

Ok, please don't think I'm a moron, but just to be sure I'm understanding you all correctly because it seems like you are saying different things.

In the video the woman burned for 5 seconds firm on each side. These were actual seconds because I timed it while she did it. Then she burned for 5 more seconds with a circular rocking motion, 5 rotations, 1 second per rotation. Then she flicked off something with the wire stand on her lenk iron. Underneath, there was a white circular bump. She burned again for 4 seconds, only this time not so firmly. She said it was just to cauterize the area. Then she did the same on the other side.

So...it that white circular bump the horn bud? I thought the thing she flicked off was the horn bud, and the white area was the scalp.

BTW, this was a 8 day old nubian kid she disbudded.

You cannot know how relieved I'll be, and how much more confidence I'll have if I know that that white circular bump isn't the skull.

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Shae in Arkansas

This is basically what I do with my Rhinehart iron with the goat tip, except I don't cauterize unless there is bleeding, and then I only touch the part that is bleeding. What you saw on the video was that the person burned the horn bud down to the white ring and then they scraped off the horn bud. Then they cauterized.

I want to add that I always use the circular motion. We don't just leave the iron on the head without moving it. Perhaps it is the skull we see. I'll have to ask my friend and get back to you. Whatever it is, all the babies I've either dehorned or seen dehorned have had the bud removed and those white spots on the head. All the goats were alright and only a few had scurs that needed fixing and I've seen hundreds of babies disbudded.

When Marcel did the disbudding on my babies, he left the burnt button on in the middle. Now some of you are saying to flick that off and cauterize.
Only one of the burnt horn buds has come off so far, yesterday, on a baby that was done 2 weeks ago. That left a bloody circle where the horn bud was, which I sprayed with granulex. Today it is scabbed over just fine.
So which is the correct way? Doing it until there is a flat white circle? Is this just a question of preferences, or is one was better than another?
TIA!

I prefer to burn for about 4 seconds(it varies a few either way depending on the size of the kid and the buds), flip the cap off the bud, then burn the horn underneath with the side of the iron till it is all copper and flat with the goats head. Then I use the round end of the iron(I use a rinehart X50) to burn for another 4 seconds or so. And yes, *everyone* does it differently....=) But when your doing 150+ kids, a vet is NOT an option!

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Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Nubians & Lamanchas
www.ozarkjewels.net

"Remember, no man is a failure, who has friends" -Clarence

So the cap that you flip off isn't the horn bud? And the underneath you speak of is white, right? That's the horn bud? You burn until that smooth white bump is copper and flat?

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Shae in Arkansas

The horn is composed of two parts. If you ever butcher and cut the horns off to make something with them, or saw horns off to dehorn, you can see what I mean. There is an outer shell that is colored, and the inner part of the horn is white and has blood running through it when they get older. The outer part is like our hair- keratin, dead cells, no nerves. As the kid goat gets older, bone grows up from the skull into the developing horn and by maturity, part of the core of the horn is bone.

The cap that you flick off is the outer part of the horn. The white underneath it is the core of the hornbud itself. It is not the skull, it is shiny white and has a cartilage-like consistency, and the iron can burn through it, making a raised up round pellet in the center (what Tracy cuts off). If you were to burn for a long time, way too long, you probably could burn down to the skull...but that white core that you are seeing is not bone.

Now if you wait too long and have to cut off the smaller horns after they've started to grow a few inches, then yes, you might see a little bit of bone or spongy marrow stuff in the center of the horn, but this is after the horns have grown to say, 2-4" long or more.

Okay, I understand. So the part you flick of is what would have been the beginning of the outer part of the horn, and the white bump underneath is what would have been the inside of the horn. That totally makes sense, and I feel much better about putting a hot iron there to cauterize if I have to.

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Shae in Arkansas

Chamoisee, I'd be curious to know how you disbud. What's your method? And what kind of goats do you raise?

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Shae in Arkansas

Well, the cap you flip off is part of the horn, but its just the outer coating you might say. Ever seen a horn that a goat has broken off(not pretty)?? Its got an outer shell, and then the inside bone-type part which is white. So yes, the cap you flip off, and then you burn the horn underneath which is white. And yes, I burn until the white bud is copper and nearly flat with the head.

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Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Nubians & Lamanchas
www.ozarkjewels.net

"Remember, no man is a failure, who has friends" -Clarence

Ahhhh, you explained it so much better than I did....thanks!

__________________
Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Nubians & Lamanchas
www.ozarkjewels.net

"Remember, no man is a failure, who has friends" -Clarence

Now that I'm calmed down about this, I'd love to hear more about specific techniques for disbudding nigerians.

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Shae in Arkansas

I have Alpines, and I think I've disbudded or behorned them at just about every stage of horn growth....

First, I let that iron heat upo for at least 5-10 minutes. I test it on a piece of scrap lumber to see if it will make an almost instant black ring on the wood. If I have to hold it there first, or press down hard to get a black ring, it isn't ready. It should make a black ring right away.

Then I go get the goat kids!! The longer they sit there waiting to be burned, the harder it is to handle them...

I don't use a box, (but I think I'd like to, if I had one!), so I sit on a picnic table, grab the kid's neck and ears (holding the ears away from the hot iron) with my left hand, and press its head very firmly against the table/bench (depends on the size of the kid).

Then with the right hand, I burn one horn bud, pressing straight down on it, for approximately 1-4 seconds.

Then lift the iron off and try to detach the horn cap. If it doesn't come off easily, burn again until it is detached all the way around and can be pulled off.

Let the iron reheat for a few moments while I take off the horn cap and assess the location of the other horn bud.

Then I burn that one.

Let the iron reheat for a few moments..

And I go back to the first hornbud and burn until there's a copper ring almost a quarter inch wide. Let it reheat, and repeat on the other side.
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If there are horns of more height than the itron can fit over, I either snip them off with wire cutters or saw them off (with a sawsall electric tool) and burn until the bleeding stops, cut off the other side, rpeat, and then go back and burn until the remaining horn tissue is all covered.

The reason that I alternate horns and let the iron reheat a lot is this: I would rather have the iron there for less time, at higher temperatures, than to be losing heat and keeping the iron there for a long period of time until it's sufficiently burned. I also like to give the head itself time to cool down between burns.

My rationale for this is that it would be better to be seared by something really hot a time or two, than to have something burning held there for an extended period of time. I think that the latter is more stressful, less likely to kill the horn tissue, and more likely to actually harm the animal.

I think I like the way you do it. You burn the cap just enough for it to be removed, right, and then you burn the bud to stop its growth?

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Shae in Arkansas

Do you think that makes for less burn time, by getting the cap out of the way as quickly as possible?

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Shae in Arkansas

Yes.

I think it does. The cap is essentially dead cells and just gets in the way and provides a barrier to the heat. Once I started taking the cap off I had fewer scurs and cleaner disbudding jobs.

edited to add:

I forgot to mention that I also use the rocking/rotating motion of the iron after the cap is off.

Also, I have heard of people counting (one onethousand, etc etc) but the timing can varys so widely depending on the kind of iron, the condition it's in, your source of power, and whether or not the iron is reheatign between kids. I once did a lot of kids, one right after the other, and even though I did the counting stuff, the iron just was not hot enough to do a good job. Almost every one of them had to be done again...when they remembered the trauma of the first time and were bigger and stronger so they struggled a lot more....

So, if you don't count your seconds, how do you know how long to burn? Do you just burn til it looks right?

Also, I have read online that some people burn down to the skull. They stop when they fell/hear the iron clanking on the skull. What do you think about that?

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Shae in Arkansas

I don't really count seconds, I just burn till it looks right. As to it "clanking on the skull"?? Using an iron I don't know how it could "clank on the skull", there is no sound except for a sizzle. And I don't burn down to the skull. So, I don't think much of that sort of procedure. It seems very unneccessary......

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Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Nubians & Lamanchas
www.ozarkjewels.net

"Remember, no man is a failure, who has friends" -Clarence