Ok, so why do we need to disbud again
 

Geesh, I hate to bring this up. I've been thinking about this anyway, and the previous thread made me want to know what you all think. I know most diary people disbud. I know all the reasons: the goats can injure me or my children, they may injure one another, tear up udders, get their horns stuck in fences, better able to sell the kids, better able to fit heads through stanchions, showing etc. Does that about cover it?

So, now can you help me understand why we only do this for dairy animals.
For this discussion, lets lay aside the reasons having to do with designs of fences and stanchions because I'm willing build fences and stanchions for a horned goat. There is a good argument to be made for getting a good price for kids, and that may be the determining factor for me, but I'd like to discuss the two other reasons for now.

1) They may injur one another, especially udders. Ok, but why do we disbud goats but usually don't disbud meat goats? I did recently find out that a good dairy goat has thinner skin than a meat type goat. Could that be one reason why they are more susceptible to injury?

2) They may injur their goatherd or children I agree we should be take horns seriously. And again, I don't see many meat goat raisers disbudding around here. Maybe there's even more justification for disbudding meat goats since they are so much bigger. I raise nigerians.

It just doesn't make sense to go messing with something God gave these creatures without a good reason. It seems like I'm making them less healthy or something; does that make sense? I had read that goat may use their horns to regulate their body temperature. I noticed one day that my horned goat was dealing with the heat just fine while the disbudded goat was panting. Maybe it was just a coincidence?

My other concern is the fact that so many people have trouble with scurs, or sometimes open nasal cavitities during fly season....etc.

I know they don't disbud in other countries, and not just third world countries.

This year I just decided to disbud the does since all the bucks / wethers will make it to the auction house. BIG mistake! My goats are not afraid of me, and when I am bent down pouring the feed into the pan, they are right there starting to eat it. Their horns are 1 foot away from my face when I'm bent over. All I would need is a goat to raise it's head quickly for some reason, and I'm going to get hit in the face - I kind of like the 2 eyes that I have for seeing, thank you very much!

Next year, ALL goats will be disbudded!!!!

(quote)1) They may injur one another, especially udders. Ok, but why do we disbud goats but usually don't disbud meat goats? I did recently find out that a good dairy goat has thinner skin than a meat type goat. Could that be one reason why they are more susceptible to injury?(QUOTE)

Yes, that and the size of a meat goat udder as compared to a dairy goat udder. Dairy goats are MUCH more susceptable to injury. That said, I have both meat and dairy and I disbudd both. I hate horns for all the reasons you stated. Yes, God gave them horns. But we take goats that would normally be roaming out with plenty of room and we ask them to live peacefully in small enclosed barns in the winter, we ask them to live as herds in smaller areas than would be natural. And they live much more peacefully in smaller areas when they are not horned. At least dairy goats do. Meat goats tend to have more laid back attitudes and are not as a general rule, quite so ornery. Also Boer does and bucks have a different type of horn growth than a dairy goats. Where a dairy goats horns grow up and out, a Boer goats grow down and a little out, but as a rule grow much closer to the head than dairies. They are not as easy to skewer, poke, or scrape with and they don't take up as much room. They can still cause damages, but not as bad usually.

(QUOTE)2) They may injur their goatherd or children I agree we should be take horns seriously. And again, I don't see many meat goat raisers disbudding around here. Maybe there's even more justification for disbudding meat goats since they are so much bigger. I raise nigerians.(QUOTE)

I think this is the least of my reasons for disbudding. If you are careful, you can work carefully with a horned goat. But, I think it is MUCH easier(and safer) to work with a disbudded goat. When I had horned goats, I would come in from worming and giving shots with bruises on my legs, arms and sometimes cheekbone from horns. Now that my herd is disbudded(except for two does), working them is much easier.

(QUOTE)It just doesn't make sense to go messing with something God gave these creatures without a good reason. It seems like I'm making them less healthy or something; does that make sense? I had read that goat may use their horns to regulate their body temperature. I noticed one day that my horned goat was dealing with the heat just fine while the disbudded goat was panting. Maybe it was just a coincidence?(quote)

I didn't see any difference in how my horned does took the heat as compared to my disbudded does. Sometimes it was the horned does who were panting, sometimes it was the disbudded. In my opinion, it is more likely coincedence.
As for the problems of scurs and/or holes in the heads into the sinuses.....Scur problems can be reduced by learning the proper way to disbudd and doing it early enough. That said, I'll take knocking a loose scur off every 6 months over dealing with horns any day of the week. As for the holes into the sinuses....you never have that problem with disbudding. Disbudding is quick and the kid forgets it very soon
That is a problem you have with DEHORNING. Disbudding and dehorning are two VERY different methods. I refuse to dehorn a goat that has horns longer than an inch. Too much pain and too much of a chance for infection in my opinion. If they are under an inch, I will clip them off, then cauterize the head with the hot iron. I don't like doing that, so I disbudd before two weeks of age, preferably by one week old. If done properly its fast and easy.
These are my reasons for disbudding with my 100+ head of goats. Just my opinion. :)

Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Boers, Nubians, Lamanchas and Alpines

a dairy goat's reason for being is producing milk. why risk injury to the udder that holds and gives that milk by NOT disbudding????? look at some of those udders-they are easy to hurt.

a dairy goat herd is handled twice daily, closely. i know many of you who own meat goats spend time daily with your animals, and this is not directed at you, but, in my observations, meat goats simply do not require the hands on twice daily that dairy goats require, therefore, some do not see the dangers of horns as easily as we might. for some, that 30 seconds per baby is just too much time to spend to get rid of the horns that can cause so many issues.

here in okla and in ark, our goats never seemed to suffer from heat-of course, there's plenty of shade in the pastures i've had, and lots of cool water twice a day, and the water is kept in the shade, also.

There is something you can buy at the farmer's supply store...I would have to dig to remember what it is called...A little round thing of pink cream...anti-fly/larvae stuff. I think it said horses on it, but they told me I could use it on the goats. Does a good job. I would just put it on everytime I went to the barn with a paper towel or cotton balls. Deb

Well, we do a lot of things to goats, and other animals, that make them less healthy then they would be if they were living completely as nature intended. Feeding them processed food. Keeping them fenced in. Forcing their bodies to make more milk then they naturally would for their offspring. etc. But it's the nature of having livestock, right?

As for the comparison to meat goats.. I guess part of the reason is that meat goats aren't around all that long, in comparison to dairy goats. They're butchered at a pretty young age, correct? They're on average not handled nearly as often or as closely either. And they're less susceptible to injury as well.

I have only milked one goat in my entire life, and as soon as she gives birth to her babies and weans them I will be milking her again. As far as MY experience goes, what little horns she has left were a BIG pain in the butt, I am generally AGAINST dehorning and disbudding, on my own animals just becaus they normally do not get milked, but when I was milking her, at the beginning when I was training her, she would put her head down then jerk it up and scrape my leg VERY hard, it would have been worse if she had ALL of her horns, she had them PARTIALLY cut off. I think that for meat goats, the horns are FINE, no harm there, but if you did have to deal with a goat, milking her, twice a day, and if she was not THAT acceptable to it, I would NOT want for her to have horns. All of the above is in my own oppinion, I hope that nothing that I said could be found offensive. Bye.

Thanks for all the great feedback.

I'm wondering why the horns are a problem during milking if their heads are in a stanchion? Plus I milk from the rear.

I don't think Goat Freak milks using a stanchion. :baby04:

My two Nigerians have horns - I was leaning over to pick up a dish for one of them and she caught me in the eye with one of her horns last week. Ouch. I'll be making sure that any goats I get from here on will be disbudded. :grump:

If you are going to have dairy goats and leave them horns then let everyone in the herd keep their horns. If you have some in there with horns and others with not that will be a problem. They use the horns as weapons. That is why they are on their head. God put them there so they could fight off predators. If they are in an area with other dairy goats that can't protect themselves and decide to use those horns it could cause serious injury to the unhorned goat.

Milking Mom - What do you recommend for de-horning? Surgical removal or banding? I've got three that I would like to de-horn, two two-yr old Nigerians and a six-month old Alpine. Just not sure what's the best way to do it.

Yeah, pookshollow, I do NOT use a milking stanchion, as a matter of fact, I do NOT even know what it is? I do NOT think that I want toi milk her that much now though, I think that I would like to butter my parents into letting me get a Nubian that is ALREADY being milked, THEN I will get a stanchion, when I learn WHAT it is that is, lol.

Ok - flame away - here's my thoughts on the matter. Horns benefit (for cooling, scratching, etc) the animal more than they provide a risk to me or my children. The process also causes risk.

I don't dehorn my goats for the same reason I don't detooth or declaw my dogs. Supervision is the key with my two legged kids.

It's all a personal choice. My polled goats have popped me harder than my horned ones lol.

Andrea

Pooks, I personally would not surgically dehorn your adults. If you've ever seen the process you know what I mean. It's bloody, brutal, with an open sinus cavity that invites infection. Now there are some people who've had success with horn banding, but even that can be painful and you have to do it just right for it to be effective.

I dont disbud either. Just dont like the idea of it really. I have never been injured by the horns. I have, however, had to release my doe from the fence she got her head stuck in. That was our fault for putting that fence in, though, and we are going to go around and put snow fence on the bottom so they can't get thier heads stuck anymore.

Thanks for the presenting the other side of this. I was hoping someone would do so.

Do you have any trouble selling your kids, or do you just have to ask for less for them? And for the record, do you have dairy goats, meat goats, or other?

Do you have trouble selling the kids? And what kind of goats do you have.

I agree with wanting to keep the goats from injuring one another. That may be the best arguement besides being able to sell the kids. I don't think that all of what we do when raising animals has to make them weaker. God knew we'd be raising these creatures. I don't assume that all we do is making them worse off than they'd be left on their own in the wild, but I do think our care should be in harmony with the way they were created if that makes any sense.

How many of you have had experience with horned dairy goats injuring one another? I know it happens, and that is an expensive risk to make when dairy goats start at $100. But I'm still curious how much it actually happens versus how often are there other problems associated with disbudding.

Goats are used to running in herds of 10 or so, which is all I plan to keep. They have the run of 6 acres.

I havent tried selling any yet, but im sure that it wouldnt be a problem. they are grade pygmies. :D

I have Fainters, and they are totally not as active as pygmies, etc. They free range my property and my UPS guy (an old school friend) of mine has brought his kiddos over to visit - one of my bucks keeps getting into the truck with him to go lol. Personally, I've held one of their horns while they are chewing, and you can FEEL how connected to the skull they are. I try not to even use horns to catch my goats. Bucks esp - we avoid horn play that way.

So far I have a waiting list, and have sold one kid as a breeder/pet to a young woman who has both pygmies and fainters and a 2 yo two legged kid!

I know accidents can happen, etc, but I work very hard with teaching my children how to act around animals. Guess I could always go childproof the horn tips, but then I'd have to carry around little horn tip protectors to all my friend's houses LOL...that and debeak all my birds...declaw the dogs...round all my corners...wrap 'em in bubble wrap... <j/k>

And no, I don't ask any less. My customers are more concerned with CAE/CL free and the lines I'm getting my goats from.

If you are really worried about it, look at breeding for polled!

Andrea

It would be very difficult to sell horned dairy goats. With fainters and pygmy's, it's much less of an issue since so many of them are horned anyway. But you would have a hard time selling a horned Lamancha or Alpine. You might find a few willing buyers, but your market would be hugely diminished, if you had any market at all. Comparing selling dairy goats to selling fainters is apples and oranges.

We have a mixed herd....crossbred goats, with the only pureberds being three of our bucks.
We have Pygmy, LaMancha, Alpine, Nubian, Saanen, Kiko, Togg, and Boer mixed into our herd in varying degrees.
We have 34 goats currently (just lost one to another dog attack). Three of the goats have horns. We would have been down to two but when I purchased a goat site unseen I never bothered to ask about horns (the other four I was already purchasing didn't have any), so I added a doe with horns.
We've always had a mixed herd of horns versus no horns.
We now disbud before a week of age...everything, even the meat wethers. I am very happily adding a polled Nubian breeding buck into the mix next season.
We made the decision over two years ago to disbud everything at birth..why? We kept horns on the kids we though we were going to be selling. We had to have the does we then decided to keep dehorned..not disbudded. Their horns weren't all taht long but they were long enough that it has taken me over two years to calm those does we had dehorned late to the point where they are easily catchable. Also, when we were there to have ours done, a local faremr was having mature full grown does done and I will never let any of our goats face that potentional future...
Having said this, we are going to leave horns on Iris' daughter(s). She is the boss goat, has horns and she is very protective of the herd. The only time those horns are a problem is when I am medicating and when they are in the milking barn in a confined area in the winter for kidding. She has to have her own pen. SHe is getting up there in age and hopefully will train her daughters.
Sammie was from that same group we had dehorned late. We thought we were going to sell her still so left the horns on her. We didn't and it is just as well. She is smaller (part pygmy) than the others in taht age group and the horns are a beneift. I am also glad Esther has horns since she hasn't adjusted all that well and is also smaller than her peer group and appears to be a different age as well.
Our type of fencing does not proper for horned goats...I hav had to remove goats many a time, just another reason we disbud.
It may also be affected by the fact we are dairy farmers and disbud our cattle as well.....I have seen cows injure one another with their horns, we dehorned 2 three year olds and a two year old cow because of it.....

You know, that is also a very good point. If you keep a goat horned, then sell it, there is a possibility that the new owner (or another owner down the line) will want/need to dehorn it. :eek: Wow, I never really thought about that.

So, not a good idea to dehorn an adult. Ok. Two of my horned girls are Nigerians, so they're not real big - I'll just have to make sure I don't stick my face down near them at feeding time! :rolleyes: The other one with horns is my six-month old Alpine. I have a sneaking suspicion that she is going to be herd queen when she grows up - she's pretty feisty now!

I've been watching the older goats interact with the two Nigie babies, now about six weeks old. I disbudded the little doe, left the buckling as that is what the breeder wanted (he's getting these two back). Angel, my seven month old Nubian X, will play with the little guy. She'll rear up and come at him head first, then very gently push head to head with him. She seems to know that she outweighs him by about 10 times!

Well, after reading the stuff at this site http://www.goatwisdom.com/ch1baby_care/dehorning.html (click on the blue word "here" above the first pic for horror stories), I'm looking at this site http://www.caprinesupply.com/shop/kid_raising7.html for pricing disbudding equipment. If/when I actually get the opportunity to raise goats, I'm thinking of keeping all the does disbudded and separated from any male kids, which... erm... will not be kept long enough to get stinky or hurt each other. You can't survive on chicken alone, right? :shrug: