do you know about this???

wehes5 · #1 09/14/05, 10:47 AM

I spoke to the county today...he had mentioned a grey water solution that the Amish use and it is legal and uasable. It involves a couple of plastic barrels,sand, hose: and 1 barrel feeds another where there is sand and chlorine tabs of some sort and the water is then legally usable and filtered to use onto the land. It is a huge fine if they catch you using grey water to water your garden because he said by legalities, there isn't much difference between grey and black water...if you seen or heard of one of these, could you explain how they work so I may build one...Thanks.

wishomesteader · #2 09/14/05, 11:50 AM

GREYWATER
what it is . . . how to treat it . . . how to use it

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greywater is washwater. That is, all wastewater excepting toilet wastes and food wastes derived from garbage grinders. There are significant distinctions between greywater and toilet wastewater (called "blackwater"). These distinctions tell us how these wastewaters should be treated /managed and why, in the interests of public health and environmental protection, they should not be mixed together.

COMBINED WASTEWATER

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greywater and Blackwater: Key differences
Greywater contains far less nitrogen than blackwater
Nine-tenths of the nitrogen contained in combined wastewater deriveves from toilet wastes (i.e., from the blackwater). Nitrogen is one of the most serious and difficult-to-remove pollutants affecting our potential drinking water supply.

Greywater contains far fewer pathogens than blackwater
Medical and public health professionals view feces as the most significant source of human pathogens. Keeping toilet wastes out of the wastewater stream dramatically reduces the danger of spreading such organisms via water.

Greywater decomposes much faster than blackwater
The implication of the more rapid decomposition of greywater pollutants is the quicker stabilization and therefore enhanced prevention of water pollution.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wehes5

I spoke to the county today...he had mentioned a grey water solution that the Amish use and it is legal and uasable. It involves a couple of plastic barrels,sand, hose: and 1 barrel feeds another where there is sand and chlorine tabs of some sort and the water is then legally usable and filtered to use onto the land. It is a huge fine if they catch you using grey water to water your garden because he said by legalities, there isn't much difference between grey and black water...if you seen or heard of one of these, could you explain how they work so I may build one...Thanks.

wishomesteader · #3 09/14/05, 11:51 AM

Greywater: Synopsis
Conventional sanitary engineering has maintained that "sewage is sewage" whether it be greywater alone or total sewage (grey and blackwater mixed together. There is one reasonable argument for this position: namely, that greywater, if left untreated for a few days, will behave like total sewage. Both will become malodorous (become anaerobic), and both will contain a large number of bacteria. The observation of these common characteristics has given rise to regulations that do not distinguish between the various sources of pollution and which therefore mandate the same treatment for all wastewaters. But the differences between greywater and total sewage are far more important than their similarities, the following document will present an alternative strategy for treating/managing greywater and give the rationale for this approach.

COMBINED WASTEWATER

Greywater is specifically washwater. That is, bath, dish, and laundry water excluding toilet wastes and free of garbage-grinder residues.When properly managed, greywater can be a valuable resource which horticultural and agricultural growers as well as home gardeners can benefit from. It can also be valuable to landscape planners, builders, developers and contractors because of the design and landscaping advantages of on-site greywater treatment/management. It is, after all, the same phosphorous, potassium and nitrogen making greywater a source of pollution for lakes, rivers and ground water which are excellent nutrient sources for vegetation when this particular form of wastewater is made available for irrigation.

Greywater irrigation has long been practiced in areas where water is in short supply. However, proper precautions for its use have not always been observed. This has posed a problem for health officials, who contend that there is no good management method for greywater which both balances user needs with public safety considerations. In fact, options for making safe use of greywater as a source for irrigation are many and diverse. The engineering of these systems is still a relatively young technology; but it is one making rapid progress. It also makes sense from both the environmental and "waste" management points of view. As these systems utilize the nutrient (potential pollutant) content in the effluent, they constitute a real solution to the treatment /management of greywater. "Real solution" here means that these greywater treatment/management systems simply do not generate waste products which, by definition, require disposal.

In the following material, technical as well as practical aspects of greywater irrigation are discussed. The requisite equipment, now commercially available through Clivus Multrum, Inc., is described as is the matter of system-sizing.

Greywater characteristics data cited here are from the most thorough report known on the subject at the present time: "Residential Waste Water" (Hushållsspillvattnet) by Lars Karlgren, Victor Tullander, Torsten Ahl and Eskil Olson. This report was funded by the Swedish National Board for Building Research in 1966 and was published in the magazine Water (Vatten, 3 -67) in March of 1967. Some of this report's diagrams and data are used here as references. The report is based on separated greywater/blackwater plumbing in an multi-apartment complex in Stockholm, and data was collected over a period of 12 weeks. The report is based on about 3500 analyses. Of particular interest is its investigation of the BOD-curve characteristics of greywater. It documents the difference in speed of decay over time between greywater and blackwater.

Cambridge, November 30th 1992 Carl Lindstrom.Copyright©

Quote:

Originally Posted by wishomesteader

GREYWATER
what it is . . . how to treat it . . . how to use it

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greywater is washwater. That is, all wastewater excepting toilet wastes and food wastes derived from garbage grinders. There are significant distinctions between greywater and toilet wastewater (called "blackwater"). These distinctions tell us how these wastewaters should be treated /managed and why, in the interests of public health and environmental protection, they should not be mixed together.

COMBINED WASTEWATER

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greywater and Blackwater: Key differences
Greywater contains far less nitrogen than blackwater
Nine-tenths of the nitrogen contained in combined wastewater deriveves from toilet wastes (i.e., from the blackwater). Nitrogen is one of the most serious and difficult-to-remove pollutants affecting our potential drinking water supply.

Greywater contains far fewer pathogens than blackwater
Medical and public health professionals view feces as the most significant source of human pathogens. Keeping toilet wastes out of the wastewater stream dramatically reduces the danger of spreading such organisms via water.

Greywater decomposes much faster than blackwater
The implication of the more rapid decomposition of greywater pollutants is the quicker stabilization and therefore enhanced prevention of water pollution.

wishomesteader · #4 09/14/05, 12:05 PM

TREATMENT TECHNOLOGIES

Aerobic Pre-treatment -- suitable for showers, hand-washing and laundry* water treatment.

The aim of this stretch filter treatment technque is simply the removal of large particles and fibers to protect the subsequent infiltration pipes from clogging and transferring it as soon as possible for treatment into a biologically active, aerobic soil-zone environment where both macro- and microorganisms can thrive. Stretch-filters are made to retain fibers and large particles and allow the rest of the organic material to travel on to the next stage of processing. This filter is suitable for public facilities where the principal source of greywater is hand-washing and showers without any food waste to speak of. If this type of filter is used to remove food wastes, these will accumulate in the filter which then becomes anaerobic and makes the effluent malodorous.The result is often that too frequent changes of the stretch-filter becomes necessary ---thus creating an undesirable,high-maintenance situation. See diagram below for a typical Clivus greywater management fabric filter configuration:

Anaerobic to aerobic pre-treatment
If any significant quantity of food waste enters the system from dishwashers and kitchen sinks receiving cooking grease and a fair amount of food residue, this option is recommended. A typical installation is not very different from a traditional system; but the treated effluent is of much better quality and does not pollute nearly as much. Ideally, it should consist of a three-stage septic tank for sludge and grease separation. The separated sludge can thus be removed less frequently [every fourth year instead of bi-yearly as is standard practice with many conventional systems]. The outgoing effluent in the septic system is anaerobic. Following the septic tank is a sandfilter designed for restoration of aerobic conditions. The final treatment stage leading to purified water of near potable-quality is treatment in a planter bed. This is not the most inexpensive solution. It is, however, one of the most effective,simple-to-maintain on-site treatment techniques available today.

Grease-trap/septic tank + sandfilter + sample/pump pit

Planter soilbox design

Soilboxes have been used for greywater purification since 1975 with excellent results. The planter bed has to be well drained to prevent the formation of a water-logged zone in any part of it. Therefore, its bottom contains a layer of polyethylene "actifill" or pea gravel to provide effective drainage. A layer of plastic mosquito-netting on top of the actifill prevents the next layer of coarse sand from falling through. On top of the coarse sand is a layer of ordinary concrete-mix sand, while the top two feet consist of humus-rich top soil. Clay soils must not be used.

Water injection without erosion

The pressure infiltration pipes are designed to allow for even distribution of the water even on uneven terrain. They are easy to clean and should be placed on the soil surface after planting and then covered with a 2 to 4-inch-thick layer of wood chip mulch. In cold climates the change from shallow infiltration to a deeper layer can be accomplished by an automatic switch-over (as described below in Fig. 9). The pressure infiltration piping (shown above) consists of two concentric pipes, the inner one having holes pointing up and the outer sleeve fitting snugly over the inner pipe and somewhat expanded by the water pressure when ON. This causes the water to" bleed" out along the slot at the bottom. Water pressure OFF makes the sleeve close, preventing worms, insects and roots from entering the pipe and clogging it from the inside. Piping is available in 5-ft sections and can easily be coupled together through a quick-connect system. These pipes are easily cleaned without disassembly.

Gravity or pressure leaching chamber

Hanson Associates of Jefferson, Md., reports that leaching chambers have operated successfully at a loading of 2.4 gal/sq. ft. per day receiving all the greywater from a three-bedroom house. Using half a PVC pipe 6" diameter according to the figure below, this leaching chamber can be placed in a trench on a 1-2 inch mesh plastic netting (to prevent the walls from sinking into the soil). No pre-filtration is used--only a dosing pump chamber pumping every 8 hours.

3 bedrooms @ 150 gal/b.r. = 450 gal/day. Subtract 50% for no-flush toilets and reduced-flow shower heads etc. = 225 gal/day. The minimum trench surface area is therefore around 100 sq ft using a loading rate of around 2-2.5 gal/sq. ft/day

Specify:

5-20 feet long and 1 foot wide trenches.

Flooding dose:

100 sq. ft x 1" desired water depth = 62 gal per dosing

Dosing chamber can be a Clivus LPF pre-treatment filter container without the stretch filter.

Gravity switch from shallow to frost-free zones/levels

Figure 3 shows an example of automatic switching from the shallow leach chamber to one which is below the frost line. If the shallow trench freezes and becomes clogged with ice, the water will back up and spill over into the pipe for the deeper trench. It should be noted that greywater is warmer than combined sewage and that, therefore, shallow leach zones in operation tend to stay free of ice much longer than is normally expected of combined waste waters. One notes a warming of the soil and biological activity which make freezing rare even in fairly cold climates.

Automatic switching of levels using pump pressure is somewhat different from gravity pressure. In this case, a loop has to be arranged indoors where the pressure needed for the shallow infiltration normally is lower than the pressure required to force the water up to the top of the loop. The top of this loop must, of course, not exceed the shut-off head of the pump. A margin of around three feet of water is desirable. Figure 4

The system can equally be designed to be switched manually by the opening and closing of the valves feeding the different zones/levels.

Other Cold Weather Options

There are several greywater-irrigated greenhouses located in New England. Some of these have been in operation since the 1970's and feature a combination of automatically irrigated and fertilized growing beds which provide effective greywater treatment. One 12 ft x 36 ft greenhouse near Concord, NH uses as the final treatment--after the soil beds--a fish pool, which stays clear by means of a biological treatment technique involving a waterfall and bio-filter plates on the pool-bottom(21). Deep soil beds tend to store heat both from the sun and from the greywater itself. The New Hampshire greywater-irrigated greenhouse is the top cold climate producer of salad greens in the US according to a survey carried out by A. Shapiro at the National Center for Alternative Technology (22).

This greenhouse provides a family of 4 - 6 people with more than enough salad greens throughout the long New England winter. Winter vegetables grown in it include broccoli, spinach, lettuce, mustard greens and sorrel (see below) (15).

Another simple way to facilitate better distribution of the greywater in the soilbed is to make a pipe-loop that is fed from both sides -- see the sketch below:

Out-door planters

There are several variations on the theme of outdoor raised soilbeds that effectively replace the soil needed for an effective leach field treatment of waste water. Houses on ledges or very sandy soils that would not effectively slow down effluent sufficiently to accomplish treatment can be fitted with masonry soilboxes which, in effect, serve to build up the site's soil profile. This strategy has been used in so- called mounds or Evapo-Transpiration beds (the name derived from the often erroneous assumption that all the water will evaporate to the atmosphere even in wet and cold climates).

Laying the greywater irrigation pipes Joan van der Goes and her Clivus Multrum composting toilet

In areas where the density of construction makes it difficult or impossible to build up a large mound or to locate planters on the property for treating the volume of effluent produced, two adjacent neighbors can agree to build property dividers and plant hedges or evergreens as their leaching area. This space-saving alternative combines privacy and aesthetics with good environmental protection. Greywater gardens as depicted above can offer the added benefit of one's being able to garden at a back-saving height...

In colder climates, treatment will be less effective during the winter season, and at times there may even be trouble as a result of freezing. However, this is often less of a technical problem than it may seem to be at first glance:

-When relatively warm greywater is injected into the soil, increased biological activity as well as a warming of the soil tend to keep the injection zone unfrozen longer than surrounding areas.

-In rural or suburban locales, raised beds/planters may often be ideal for use as leaf "compost bins" in the fall. The leaves act as an insulator as well as a composting fuel-source that further insures that the soil underneath does not deep-freeze.

Shallow subsoil (i.e., at 2-6 inches below soil-level) irrigation is preferable to surface irrigation

whenever the water used is "grey"( i.e. neither clean nor free of salts which leave saline deposits when applied on the soil surface);
when located in a high evaporation locale suffering from water shortage;
when one wants to produce leaf or garden waste compost fast and create and maintain an earthworm community in one's compost-pile;
for selective irrigation (a flower border, a shrub, a bush or a tree);
when you want to automatically irrigate a drained planter either indoors or outdoors.
HOME Synposis Planning Pollution Treatment Samples Links References

Cyngbaeld · #5 09/15/05, 11:42 AM

It sounds to me like they are using a slow sand filter (gravity fed) and treating the resulting water with chlorine prior to using it for irrigation. You must not pretreat the water with chlorine, because A: chlorine does not work well on cloudy water and B: The chlorine will kill the layer on top of the sand filter that actually does the work of purification.

Here is an excellent article on SSF:
http://www.oasisdesign.net/water/tre...sandfilter.htm

Gary in ohio · #6 09/15/05, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wehes5

there isn't much difference between grey and black water.

There is a BIG differance between grey and black water. Black water has fecal matter, Grey water doesnt. Black water is tolet water, grey is everything else.
Some will call garbage disposal water black as well.

WisJim · #7 09/15/05, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary in ohio

There is a BIG differance between grey and black water. Black water has fecal matter, Grey water doesnt. Black water is tolet water, grey is everything else.
Some will call garbage disposal water black as well.

Some areas say that any water used to wash people is black, too, as they assume you wash ALL of your body!

wehes5 · #8 09/15/05, 03:51 PM

I know there is a differnece between grey and black water...how did we get here...I was originally just asking about a certain type of filter the amish use and if anyone knows about it and knows more details...thanks. please read the original posting...looks like all this got out of hand...

wehes5 · #9 09/15/05, 03:55 PM

[QUOTE=rambler]_Every_ state:

_Every_ county has different regulations and enforcement on this issue.

Without listing your state & county, you will not get any help at all on what it is you are talking about. What is legal for you probably is not 20 miles away from you.

Just can't get general help very well from an internet group that is world-wide unless you are much more specific.

Why did you answer this thread and what are you talking about. This has nothing to do with this...ALL i am asking is about a filter the Amish have been known to use and if anyone has any knowledge about it...your response came off the wall

wehes5 · #10 09/15/05, 03:56 PM

This is what I was looking for...I will print this off and show it to my hubby when I see him. thanks again!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyngbaeld

It sounds to me like they are using a slow sand filter (gravity fed) and treating the resulting water with chlorine prior to using it for irrigation. You must not pretreat the water with chlorine, because A: chlorine does not work well on cloudy water and B: The chlorine will kill the layer on top of the sand filter that actually does the work of purification.

Here is an excellent article on SSF:
http://www.oasisdesign.net/water/tre...sandfilter.htm

rambler · #11 09/15/05, 05:25 PM

[QUOTE=wehes5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambler

_Every_ state:

_Every_ county has different regulations and enforcement on this issue.

Without listing your state & county, you will not get any help at all on what it is you are talking about. What is legal for you probably is not 20 miles away from you.

Just can't get general help very well from an internet group that is world-wide unless you are much more specific.

Why did you answer this thread and what are you talking about. This has nothing to do with this...ALL i am asking is about a filter the Amish have been known to use and if anyone has any knowledge about it...your response came off the wall

I'm sorry if I offened you. That was not my intent.

Here is what I wanted to say, in a different way:

What is it you are talking about? I read your original message several times, & I do know know what it is you want info on.

There are Amish people in many parts of the USA, and they all use different building systems that conform to what local custom is. Listing your location would help a lot in trying to figure out which Amish group you are speaking of.

There are many different gery water treatment systems. Can you explain the deal a bit better to try to narrow it down a bit?

Many locations do not allow grey water systems at all, so for example the 3-4 groups of Amish that live within 100 miles of me do _not_ use a grey water system. As such, your question did not make any sense to me.

Was just looking for either a better understanding of what you are looking for, or a better discription of what is actually allowed in your location.

Again, sorry if I offended, I was only trying to help by asking for more info.

--->Paul

foxtrapper · #12 09/16/05, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wehes5

It is a huge fine if they catch you using grey water to water your garden because he said by legalities, there isn't much difference between grey and black water.

I'd want to see that, chapter and verse. There is a huge difference between grey water and black water discharge. The EPA and many drought prone jurisdictions promote the heck out of grey water recycling. I strongly suspect you've got an overly zellous poorly informed beurocrat giving you a personal opinion.

Jan in CO · #13 09/16/05, 08:23 AM

There was a long article in the Colorado Springs, CO paper a while back stating that you cannot use your greywater here, as the wastewater actually doesn't belong to you! I was surprised, but in reading it, found out the wastewater from that city actually belongs to other towns and cities further down the stream after it is treated. Yuck. Of course, in the country, it's another matter as we don't feed back into the local sewer system/treatment plant. Just for info. Jan in CO