Katrina - Lessons Learned

Mike in Ohio · #1 08/30/05, 08:44 AM

After a major event like Katrina (well, the rain isn't supposed to hit here until later today) I like to do a post mortum on lessons learned. I'll start out with a few observations:

1) Do not procrastinate! If you are staying put you should have plenty of supplies layed in early. If you are leaving then leave early....otherwise be prepared to be stuck in traffic.

2) Understand (or at least think about) the dangers you are accepting either by staying put or leaving.

3) If you put yourself into the hands of the government (Shelter) you are giving up the freedom to make choices. I'm not saying this is automatically a bad thing....just understand the bargain you are entering into.

4) What happens in one area can impact all over. I knew that oil and gas was big in that area. I didn't realize to what extent we are dependent on such a small geographic area energywise.

5) Don't have all your supplies/tools in one building. Also store some clothes in a waterproof container (in addition to foodstuffs).

6) Just because you have a water source doesn't mean it will be available. Look at all that flooding and think about your well/spring/whatever.

7) Do you have a plan "B"?

8) The disruption is likely to last longer than most people think.

Just a few thoughts.

Mike

Ken Scharabok · #2 08/30/05, 09:15 AM

One thing I noticed in the shots of the traffic heading out of New Orleans was very few trucks. Not talking big rigs (of which I saw none), but rather U-Haul type. I suspect by the time people fully realized what was coming, the relatively few in the area were spoken for. One option might be to rent a truck at the first sign of approaching danger. If needed, you have it. If not, then you are only out a week's or so rental. In need be, it might become a shelter as well - likely cheaper than a motel room (if one is even to be found).

One drawback is they are real gas guzzlers so you would also need to stock up on it in advance also.

bare · #3 08/30/05, 09:29 AM

I'd like to think that one flood would wake me to the conclusion that it's not a good idea to live in an area that is below sea level.

tnborn · #4 08/30/05, 09:42 AM

I feel for the people who live there.
tnborn

Sparticle · #5 08/30/05, 10:16 AM

I'd like to make the comment that if you stay behind in a situation like that, you not only put your life and your family's life at risk; but you put the resuce worker's life at risk. I stayed at my mom's house on the San Jac river while they were in Louisianna building a new power plant. There was a great deal of rain north of me and unexpectedly the river was raging, out of bank and it's new course was right under the house. It was terrifying. The resuce workers risked their lives just checking on us because the water was raging beyond belief. It looked like the colorado river rapids. they could get as far as the fence and gates which were wrapped with chain and locked. They were bent and bowed but hadn't broken yet. so they spoke to us through a bull horn and said that if we were OK, they'd rather leave us there then get out of the boat and go under water to try to cut the chain. Just to check the water, my ex-husband tied rope around his waist and then around the house and walked down a few of the stairs. He stopped and said there was no way he was going all the way down to the slab underneatch to check it out because just a foot into it he could barely keep his balance. Anyway, I saw one guy right outside our yard in a tree and the boat was trying to rescue him as well. They had to spin around the tree about 4 times trying to get him because the water was so swift. These guys put their lives on the line for people like me and I'll never put them through that again if possible. Now in my defense, we didn't know the river was going to flood and no one told us to get out. But if I'm in the situation where I'm told to leave, I'm pretty much going to. One of the rescue boats did go down that day, but everyone in it lived amazingly.

rambler · #6 08/30/05, 11:17 AM

About once a month I see a question on here 'Found this neat property really cheap just what we want, but it's on a flood plain. That shouldn't be any problem tho should it?????'

I don't think very many lessons are ever learned for very long, 95% of the places will be rebuilt right where they are, and all will repeat again in the course of the next 50 years. Or, the govt (you & I) will have to spend untold gobs of money to try to make un-natural dikes & pumps to try to protect these lowland areas from extreme storms so folks can live on their exsisting land below sea level....

I do feel for all the people who are deeply affected by this, not trying to kick anyone when they are down. I know that is how it can sound: Just commenting on human nature. And that we humans rarely learn.

--->Paul

cc-rider · #7 08/30/05, 12:27 PM

I also feel very sad for these people that will most likely lose everything, but it irks me that some people decided to "tough it out" and then called 911 when it got too bad.

They were TOLD to leave. It was extremely dangerous to stay and they are expecting someone else to risk life and limb to rescue their stupid, bull-headed butts.

I'm getting down now.

Normally shy Chris in Ohio

Mike in Ohio · #8 08/30/05, 12:40 PM

I guess I wasn't as clear as I should have been. The purpose of the thread is to help identify decision points leading up to, during and following a crisis or disaster. That is, how do I make optimal choices.

If someone decides to tough it out in a situation where the expected flooding is higher than their house then they shouldn't expect others to risk their lives. That's just plain foolish.

I don't know that I agree with the "they were told by authorities and should have followed orders" (go to a shelter for example) approach as one extreme. At the other extreme the I'm staying here and praying doesn't appear to make sense in the Katrina situation either.

I would have been out of there early, gone far and planned on being away for an extended period.

On a personal note, I simply would not invest in building up something in an area subject to hurricanes, flooding, etc. That's just me.

Mike

Michael W. Smith · #9 08/30/05, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cc-rider

They were TOLD to leave. It was extremely dangerous to stay and they are expecting someone else to risk life and limb to rescue their stupid, bull-headed butts.
Normally shy Chris in Ohio

I don't want to appear too hard hearted here, but the authorities should tell the people who decide not to leave that they are on their own. Any calls to 911 for rescue after they were told will not be dispatched. Why should people have to risk their lives to save someone who is too dumb/stubborn to listen? Doing this would have the outcome nature intended - survival of the fittest.

rambler · #10 08/30/05, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike in Ohio

I guess I wasn't as clear as I should have been. The purpose of the thread is to help identify decision points leading up to, during and following a crisis or disaster. That is, how do I make optimal choices.

If someone decides to tough it out in a situation where the expected flooding is higher than their house then they shouldn't expect others to risk their lives. That's just plain foolish.

I don't know that I agree with the "they were told by authorities and should have followed orders" (go to a shelter for example) approach as one extreme. At the other extreme the I'm staying here and praying doesn't appear to make sense in the Katrina situation either.

I would have been out of there early, gone far and planned on being away for an extended period.

On a personal note, I simply would not invest in building up something in an area subject to hurricanes, flooding, etc. That's just me.

Mike

You did seem clear to me until this message, now I'm confused.

You did a lot of flip-flop in this message:

It's wrong to stay & then call for help.
It's wrong to follow the authorities & leave when told to do so.
It's wrong to stay & pray.
You personally would have left early.

Kind of all over the board now, I'm not sure what your point is at this point.

Me, I would not try to live in such a low-lying place when you know disaster will hit such a vast area sometime some day. This is different than a tornado or some such - this is a big bowl where there is no place to hide, no place to go to, a long long time until you can come back, & 'help' needs to come from a very far place away.

If I were living there anyhow (& as a human being, I too end up doing things I wouldn't normally do, so I'm not condemning those who are living in such situations) I would either have a plan - my property has a high spot, there is shelter available to me, I have supplies. Or, I would leave on time so as not to endanger others.

People had a choice to live there or not. I don't blame them for that. The dangers of this area were spelled out decades ago. And people kept building. A hurricane is something with warning & time to act. Those that did not act wisely have paid dearly. I'm saddened for them & their families, but they made their choices many years & several days ago, and so we move on.

Now we have a huge bill over the next decade, paid partly from my pocket, to build bigger dikes to try to protect the below sea level buildings. When there is a lot of empty land that could be built on that is above sea level, and would be cheaper to rebuild on, and somewhat safer from huricanes. But, we will rebuild in the low spots anyhow.

Such is human nature. We don't really learn our lessons, which was the title of your post.

--->Paul

Jessikate · #11 08/30/05, 02:26 PM

Just as an aside - I realy don't beleive a u-haul type vehicle would be the safest choice to evacuate in. You didn't see a lot of larger high profile vehicles (moving trucks, freight trucks, busses, passenger vans etc.) on the road during evac. because the winds really move those vehilces around, making it very dangerous for the passengers and others traveling along the road. A lot of times, they don't let these vehicles onto the roads because of the danger they pose. Think if one of those went over on its side during an evacuation, slowing the already dangerous process even more, it truly has the potental to be catostrophic.

We have a strech of highway here in CO (In Southpark - if you are familiar with the cartoon) that gets closed regualry to trafic because of the wind - and beleive me - it is not easy to control a car in 20 mph wind, let alone 65 - 100 mph wind! YIKES!

Mike in Ohio · #12 08/30/05, 02:28 PM

Sorry if I made it more confusing Paul.

>It's wrong to stay & then call for help.

If you decide to stay then you are on your own. If you stay in a (potential) disaster area then you should be prepared to deal with the realities of it.

>It's wrong to follow the authorities & leave when told to do so.

I didn't say that. I said that blindly following what the authorities say is wrong. Look at 9/11. If people had followed the instructions of the authorities and stayed in their offices the death toll would have been much higher.

>It's wrong to stay & pray.

By that I mean people who stay in a situation without any preparation and figure that prayer will get them through are likely to have poor outcomes.

>You personally would have left early.

You betchya! When you look at disasters, those people who react quickly tend to be the ones who have the best chance of survival/better outcomes. If I lived (single family home) in the affected area and they were warning of 25 foot or higher storm surges I wouldn't have to hesitate 2 seconds to know it was time to move to higher ground.

I do agree with the rest of what you posted. Perhaps the general population won't learn lessons from these sorts of events but many of the regulars on this board might.

Mike

vegascowgirl · #13 08/30/05, 02:37 PM

I'd like to point one thing out here. Alot of you are pointing fingers and condenming the people who stayed. I'm sure that many of those people had little to no choice in the matter. I recently spent a month in New Orleans (Kenner actually, which is right on Lake Pochuetrain) while my Mother was in the hospital. There are sooo many people (poor and middle class alike) that don't have any transportation other than public transport. Many people walk/take the bus, etc. Well, what happens when they are told to evacuate. I didn't see any city/public transport to evacuate these people. In fact, they were told to move deeper into the city to take refuge at the super dome. Rental cars were already taken by the time a mandatory evac was called. No busses or vans were provided to move these people out of the city. Quite honestly most of us know how many people are in the city, ...I doubt there were too many people offering rides out of the city (especially not for the poor neighborhoods). These people were probably scared to death, and still are. They had no place to go because noone offered transport. The super dome obviously wasn't the best place either ( I fully expect to start hearing stories of theft and rape happening there ..in the coming months).
Yes, I agree that if a person had the means to leave and still chose not to, then shame on them...but in many cases they had no choice. Trust me, if anything like this happened in any real major city (I.E. New York, L.A., Las Vegas, )you would have the same problem. Untill the cities take responsability for folks and provide public evacuation services you will have situations where people literally HAVE to stay and endure the storm.

To get back to the subject of the thread. Things I believe or have learned.

1. never rely on the city/or town to protect the needy
2. having an emergency kit ready AT ALL TIMES is a must... even if it is only a backpack with some blankets, power bars, and bottles of water. Something is better than nothing.
3. whether urban or rural, every person should be taught some basics in survival techniques
4. never rely on the help of others untill AFTER the worst has happened...everybody is usually out to save themselves beforhand.
5. Never rely soley on evac routes set up by city/county. Map your own way out and then if you have to evacuate determine which way would be safest and quickest.

lilyrose · #14 08/30/05, 02:46 PM

Interesting points, Vegascowgirl.

Even tourists couldn't get out because there weren't enough rental cars available.

Every person has their own story. Some were and still are in hospitals. Lots of reasons some could not leave.

The bottom line to me is this: Be prepared to leave at a moment's notice and pray you'll always be in a good position to do so, if necessary. Get all important papers, valued items, etc. together in one place so you can grab at the last minute. http://www.ready.gov/index.html

Take this test and see how you do: http://www.americaprepared.org/dev/quiz.asp

Hey, I didn't come up with this stuff! Our government did. Maybe they know something we don't.

Ken Scharabok · #15 08/30/05, 03:04 PM

I think it is reasonable to make the assumption if you have enough sense to rent a U-haul type vehicle, you are going to have enough sense to leave early. It was fairly clear shortly after Katrina passed over South Florida it was 1. Going to be a major storm. 2. It was heading north.

DayBird · #16 08/30/05, 03:07 PM

Something I've learned:

If James Spann, the local ABC meteorologist, jumps up and down saying that Birmingham will blow away during Hurricane Ivan, and seeing that it didn't happen, is no reason not to expect Hurrican Katrina, less than a year later, to not try her best to blow Birmingham away.

DayBird · #17 08/30/05, 03:08 PM

Somthing else I've learned:

If you rely on electric fence to keep your goats at home, you better lock them in the bathroom before Hurricane Katrina blows into town. Thank God, Alabama Power just came back on.

heather · #18 08/30/05, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quntmphscs

I'd like to make the comment that if you stay behind in a situation like that, you not only put your life and your family's life at risk; but you put the resuce worker's life at risk.

I agree - I feel terribly for the people who NEED to be rescued - how awful. I'm sure many of them had no way out (no car, little resources, etc.)
Yet, I have heard of those who chose to stay

Maybe they had their reasons, but I wouldn't want my husband out there rescuing someone who was just plain stubborn
ugh

Donovan K · #19 08/30/05, 05:11 PM

As some of you may have never been through the experience of a hurricane or mandatory evacuation, let me tell you what really happens as I had two this past year.

Very often, as the storm approaches, when everyone is ADVISED to leave the area, everyone gets in their cars and heads out and the traffic is ubelievably backed up and there is a run on gasoline. Often, because of high winds coming with the storm, there are High Profile Vehicle Bans put in place so trucks, trailers, RV's are not allowed on the highways as they are a danger to other drivers. During Charley, a family of four was one of the first casualities because their car was crushed when a truck was blown over on top of them on the expressway.

When the Mandatory Evacation orders go out, sheriff's deputies and police officers go house-to-house to inform you to get out. You have the choice of relocating to another place outside of the evacuation zone or going to a shelter. If you do not leave the mandatory evacuation zone, you are ON YOUR OWN. If you call 911 in the middle of the storm because your house just became a pile of splinters and have nowhere to go, they will not send police or rescue people to you. They will not risk the lives of rescue people during the emergency to save you. They will tell you that they will come look for you when they can after the storm passes.

As for wanting to leave a shelter once you arrive, you may find you cannot leave as usually right before the storm, a curfew is put in place and it is illegal to be on the streets during the emergency. This is again to keep you from being stupid and having to be rescued and from keeping you from looting.

At the shelter, yes, you do agree to abide by the rules they set for you in exchange for a safe place to be. You are told to bring your personal items, your own food, blankets and source of entertainment. It is boring and uncomfortable but at least you are provided with water, a restroom, ice and sometimes a hot meal. What they expect is you don't cause trouble, don't bring guns, don't be a PITA.

Stupidity is the leading cause of death in and after hurricanes, mostly from people that don't take the situation seriously. The curfew is in place for a reason and those that go out to look around at the damage. Four young people on motorcycles died in Orlando last year when they went out during the eye of the storm to see damage, crashing into downed trees around a blind curve. There were hundreds that ended up hospitalized when people that bought generators were afraid they would get stolen so they put them running inside the house and nearly killed their households with CO2 poisoning.

As for people not being allowed to ever rebuild where hurricanes have struck, it is impractical. My home was hit twice last year in Central Florida. The last time before then we were hit once was forty years ago. Forty. A neighbor of mine, a Yankee from Minnesota who had just bought a summer place next to mine, said she was not going to stay, even though she was gone the whole summer and didnt experience any of the storms or suffer any damage to her home. She said it made her too nervous. I tried to explain that we didnt have hurricanes every summer but it was enough for her.

sidepasser · #20 08/30/05, 05:12 PM

Things I've learned from living in tornado prone Georgia =

keep ten gallons of water on hand at all times
keep ten gallons of gas on hand at all times
don't trust the air horns to notify you of a tornado, keep a watch on the weather conditions and listen to a weather radio
Have a plan for shelter and if someone says go, be ready to go.

Keep a copy of all important papers in a bank safety deposit box as well as at your office (if possible) and one copy in a leak tight container ready to grab if necessary

Keep at least one set of clothing, necessities, and copies of medical prescriptions in a grab bag

Keep fresh batteries on hand and replace them when needed.

Better to be safe than try to rescue belongings - teach your dog to stay in a crate and the cat as well..if you need to stay in a hotel, some will allow a pet if it is crated when otherwise they might not.

Keep at least enough cash to get yourself a hotel room for one night as ATMS may not work.

Identify your livestock with silver pen (write on their rear end or on their side with a silver marker, your name and phone number and turn the critters outside the barn). The silver marker shows up at night and will wash off in about three weeks. If they get out, at least someone will be able to notify you.

Never rely on electric fence to contain your animals during storms..power does go out, have a backup perimeter fence on your property.

Fill all stock tanks before the storm if no fresh water will be available if power goes out.

Some of this you already know, others who are new to this homesteading thing may not know..but each of us is responsible for our own safety and well being as the government usually gets overwhelmed by sheer numbers and us rural folks are normally the last to get electric, phone, and other services restored. (at least around here, industrial park first, then city residents, then subdivisions, and last those of us in rural areas)...It is not the power people's fault, it the way the government operates so don't blame the lineman!!

and last but not least - have at least waterproof matches, candles, a coleman type stove with fuel, a sleeping bag, and potable water, and some can goods in a trash can that is water tight...you can survive with those items if that is all you have..of course a tent would be nice (I slept in one for three months after my house was destroyed by a tornado).

Just a little more food for thought,
Sidepasser