Raising Purebred Dogs?

[JAS]

Hi, was just reading the business idea thread and was interested in raising dogs as a side business. I have been thinking about it for some time and recently bought a female American Water Spaniel that I am hoping to breed. Hunting dogs are our main interest which would require a little more effort than most breeds. I do have a male lined up but am required to have hips and eyes checked first before breeding.

I would love to hear from everyone that does this and what the pro's and con's are and any ideas. Also how do you market your dogs to avoid the puppy mill thing? I live pretty far from "money" and would like a strategy in mind going into this.

Thanks.

[bethlaf]

Originally Posted by JAS

Hi, was just reading the business idea thread and was interested in raising dogs as a side business. I have been thinking about it for some time and recently bought a female American Water Spaniel that I am hoping to breed. Hunting dogs are our main interest which would require a little more effort than most breeds. I do have a male lined up but am required to have hips and eyes checked first before breeding.

I would love to hear from everyone that does this and what the pro's and con's are and any ideas. Also how do you market your dogs to avoid the puppy mill thing? I live pretty far from "money" and would like a strategy in mind going into this.

Thanks.

are you going to compete with her first, to earn points or just breed her and hope for the best?

you most likely will not make enough to break even , akc registered, pups sell for say $200.00 , hunting dogs with good genetics and PROVEN parents sell for $350.00 ****this assumes youre selling them , and not selling them to a reseller, people who breed for resellers only get 50-100 per pup, often less

one bitch can whelp ( reasonably, and healthily) 1 litter a year, assuming 6 pups, thats $1000.00-1500.00 assuming all pups sell ( not all will sell for the full price)

now .
expenses
food -25.00 month x 12 = $300.00
frontline 11.00x 12 = $132.00
Vet checks assume 4x year at $25.00 = $100.00
misc $300.00 (grooming,misc bones toys,worming)
stud fees $250.00 (avg)
you will either break even or barely make it , its not a high profit thing ,
now that being said, when i was younger, my uncle showed and field trained his beagles, he had 3 bitches and 2 studs, and he showed them all, after they got good enough , people started ASKING for pups from him, thats when he retired the bitches and started breeding , he kept a couple of the best pups and trained them , and contnued showing, he did this for about 4 years, by then most who wanted a dog from him had one, or had one that was related to his dogs, inother words the market was flush , and he then went to just the one female and one stud, and had his boy stand stud , for a price,it wasnt enough to make a profit, but it paid for his showing , and expenses, so aunty didnt mind



just some thoughts

[countrygrrrl]

Bethlaf is right. Good breeding is not just an art, but an expensive proposition.

In addition, one of the biggest problems with purebred dogs is the sheer number of genetic disorders they carry. It's why it's so important to have full histories on them and their parents, g-parents, etc.

I just went through a scare with my German Shepherd, for example --- degenerative myelopathy, which is one of the genetic disorders German Shepherds carry. I have several friends who've had their hounds get glaucoma, which is one of the genetic disorders for certain hounds, and have been watching (via internet) a spate of kidney failures in very young hound pups -- all the kidney failures seem to be genetic in origin and by their numbers, suggest hound lovers have yet another thing to watch for (in addition to glaucoma, thrombopathia, Von Wildebrands disease, etc.)

If I were you, I'd find a VERY GOOD Water Spaniel club or organization, and start doing your homework there. At the very least, you'll learn a lot and make some friends.

[JAS]

One reason I am drawn to the American Water Spaniel is the small size, great temperment and few genetic problems. The lady with the stud has a large kennel (30-40 dogs) about three hours from here. She sells them for $600 to $1000 but is well known, shows them and does all the right stuff. That is why I am trying to line up a male with her. Her stud fee is $700 but agreed to pick of litter to help me out.

The vet I have lined up to do the hips told me I could get the better prices if the hips are graded and the eyes are certified (she mentioned $600 to $1000 with out knowing the breed I was asking about!!!!)

I know the prices listed above are beyond my reach but would like to try. Seems like most breeders try to talk others out of it?? We have had dogs for twelve years so it isn't something I am jumping into. For the female I have now I still need to wait 10 months before I can even get her hips tested. I guess my main goal would be to have the dogs pay for themselves plus the use we get out of them and if there is anything left over, great!

I would love to do the field trials but don't know that much about them. Seems like they are usually far away.

[thebeav]

If your place is large enough, I’ve always wanted to have a hunting dog training facility. You could charge for boarding and training. A number of people that hunt don’t have the time to train their dogs.

[countrygrrrl]

Originally Posted by JAS

The lady with the stud has a large kennel (30-40 dogs) about three hours from here. She sells them for $600 to $1000 but is well known, shows them and does all the right stuff. That is why I am trying to line up a male with her. Her stud fee is $700 but agreed to pick of litter to help me out.

The vet I have lined up to do the hips told me I could get the better prices if the hips are graded and the eyes are certified (she mentioned $600 to $1000 with out knowing the breed I was asking about!!!!)

She might be a good mentor for you. At the very least, you NEED a mentor --- but you want to make sure it's someone who is reliable, knowledgable and ethical.

Seems like most breeders try to talk others out of it??

The problem, as I see it, is in part escalation in the number of genetic disorders in a LOT of breeds, due to irresponsible breeding. So it isn't necessarily that they're just trying to talk you out of it --- more likely, if they're responsible and ethical, they're trying to get across to you the need for you to be responsible and ethical in your breeding practices.

Glaucoma, for example, was a problem for hounds, but not that bad --- except that the numbers of hounds diagnosed with glaucoma has been doubling every couple of years, thanks to irresponsible breeding practices. Similar figures can be seen for things like degenerative myelopathy in some breeds. And the skyricketing numbers of deadly kidney malformations or whatever in very young pups in certain breeds oif hounds is definitely linked to bad breeding practices.

I would love to do the field trials but don't know that much about them. Seems like they are usually far away.

I say DO IT! Who cares if you've never done them? Many people who go to these events are newbies, too! I've never done them but know a lot of people who do --- great way to meet people and learn the things you need to learn.

[poorme]

The dog breeders I know lose money on the whole proposition, but do it because that's what they like to do.

[ozarkin'it]

dont discount the United Kennel Club. The AKC cares only for looks. The UKC is a working dog registry (just my 2cents)

[countrygrrrl]

Originally Posted by ozarkin'it

dont discount the United Kennel Club. The AKC cares only for looks. The UKC is a working dog registry (just my 2cents)

Yup. AKC has gone down the tubes, AFAIC, esp. in recent months. UKC has managed to hang onto their integrity, and genuinely has cornered the market on real live working dogs.

[goatlady]

My sister in Fla just bouth 30 acres to develop into a taing field for breeding and taining Registered German shorthairs. Both her bitch and stud cost well over $1000, and she has spent the last several years attending shows in a 7 state area, finally has enough champion points and contacts to go into business. If you don't have top of the line blood lines, champion points, contacts, and excellent knowledge you will not breakeven at all. She has been showing various breeds for 15 years and finally settle on the GSH. She does standard shows and field trials and consistently wins in each with both dogs. She is building a regulation approved field trial area to keep her breeders in top form and then train the pups.

[CountryGoalie]

It sounds like you're working with a good, responsible breeder. She's making you do health checks? Excellent. As countrygrrrl said, she sounds like she would be a good mentor for you.

Remember, your goal with raising dogs should not be to make money -- in the long run, you're not going to, unless you plan on starting a puppymill -- your goal should be to improve the breed.

Toodles,
--Hannah

[JAS]

My girl is AKC, the only dog other than our first (a german shorthair pointer) that we have had registered.

Goatlady, I would love to hear more about your sister. My husband's favorite breed is the GSH, our first puppy (our first baby, really). Will probably get another in the future--wouldn't mind breeding them but would loose my shirt with the food bill .

We have trained all our dogs but don't think I would know enough to charge anyone for it. I am not interested in "shows" but would love doing the hunting tests. Is there any info on the internet that would be good for a newbie?

[Cedar]

I can’t stress enough how valuable it is to get good lines…no matter the price. Price doesn’t necessarily mean good dogs, but more times than not, coming from a reputable breeder, it does. I got a beagle that was birthed from second all Canada for $150 and a male dog from a similar line for $50. We’re talking grown, trained dogs here, not pups. Of course I was real buddy-buddy with the guy; long time friend. Otherwise, these were $800-$1000+ dogs.

I shouldn’t tell you this but a trick for getting into the action is to obtain the VERY best dog lines out there. No matter the price. I don’t care if we’re talking $1000s of dollars. My cousin bought a trained 8 yo DD for $1900! He also bought a female pup for $475. She had her first litter at 2 years of age or about 1.5 years later. Five pups sold for $400-$550 a piece. He’s going to breed her again this coming year (every 2 years). After this litter, everything is paid off, including food.

PS: Yes, he had sperm frozen as insurance. He has 5 grown DDs now. You may also want to look into just getting a female and looking into stud fees.

[chickflick]

I would like to stress...... Use ONLY GOOD AKC stock. Except for JRTCA (Jack Russell Terrier Club of Amer.) most (all?) of the other registries are utter nonsense who have essentially taken AKC dogs who were sold to them at some point, with a LIMITED REGISTRATION (i.e. not to be bred) and Done it ANYway... then used some other registry that is only there to make a buck... ala 'puppy mills'; goes ahead and 'registers' the dog on the 'word' of the owner. :no:

I can't belive the disrespect for AKC; particularly from CONFESSED NON breeders. UKC is an English registry.. we are in AMERICA, people!!

As many of you may have read in other threads I have been known to RANT on this topic! So I'll save it for now! Suffice it to say... part of the reason I'm breeding again is to help educate and eliminate some of the prolific 'bad' breeders in this area of Texas (sales conducted at Canton Trades Days with every excuse in the book for not using AKC..) (Check other rants in threads prior to this one!

Anyway.. anyone who takes the time and trouble to study, have SEVERAL mentors and truly cares for animals properly can make it breeding. Whether you show or not! (yeah, yeah.. I know.. but the truth is an overwhelming percentage of dogs in this country are sold for FAMILY PETS.. very FEW show. and if they try to get started.. SOME show folks are just plain Nasty! But some are nice and helpful.. )

Okay.. shutting up now. My point is you don't HAVE to SHOW to be successful. But it can be fun.

And Countrygrrl..??? (I think it was) ... AKC cares a great deal about a great many things dog related other than "looks". http://www.americankennelclub.org

[countrygrrrl]

UKC is an American club. They're well known and respected among coonhound and other hound people, and people who raise and train working dogs. Even among the ethical breeders and trainers I know (many of whom hold national titles and have shown at Westminster, etc), UKC is held in high esteem.

As for AKC, you might want to check AKC's recent stance on breeders. :no: They've just sold out to the puppymills. Which is why I can no longer support them.

[idahocurs]

I would like to stress...... Use ONLY GOOD AKC stock. Except for JRTCA (Jack Russell Terrier Club of Amer.) most (all?) of the other registries are utter nonsense who have essentially taken AKC dogs who were sold to them at some point, with a LIMITED REGISTRATION (i.e. not to be bred) and Done it ANYway... then used some other registry that is only there to make a buck... ala 'puppy mills'; goes ahead and 'registers' the dog on the 'word' of the owner.

I can't belive the disrespect for AKC; particularly from CONFESSED NON breeders. UKC is an English registry.. we are in AMERICA, people!!

I hate to dissagee but the AKC is not the greatest registry as the will register any dog whose parents are registered for the same price poor quality, health defects, not meeting breed standard, ect ect. AKC "breeders" have ruined more breeds than any other registry (Cocker Spaniel, Irish Setter and soon the Jack Russell "Parson" Terrier) You obviously know a little about dog registries as you mention the JRTCA which has the best system out there and they were and are still against any ALL BREED registry bacause most if not all are out for the $$$$.

Now to give you a little background on myself I field trialed AKC shorthairs when I was younger and now have Beagles and I will tell you the "papers" are only as good as the Breeder who fills them out. AKC, UKC, NKC ECT. it does not matter anyone can make up papers and it happens all the time. The only way to get quality is to get dogs from a honest breeder with dogs that are from good breeding and with health checks.

Anyway Back to the original ? I have had quality dog's all my life and have breed only from champion's and you will break even at best of you have integrity and show/field trial ect. If your dog is not going to improve the breed then have it spayed and keep it as a loyal pet that all dogs should be...

Sorry if this has offended anyone

[YuccaFlatsRanch]

I sell all the Anatolian Shepard stock guarding dogs my bitch gives me for $3-400 each. They are raised with stock from birth. In Tennessee they are going for $1K each. I think the secret to making a profit (small as it is) is having a dog breed that is in demand and then having great stock to breed out of.

[countrygrrrl]

From the UKC site:

With 250,000 registrations annually, the United Kennel Club is the second oldest and second largest all-breed dog registry in the United States.

U.K.C. was the first to take an aggressive stand against puppy mills. U.K.C. was the first to publish and enforce the Breeder's Code of Ethics, reserving the right to inspect kennels and to "DNA profile dogs pursuant to the maintenance of the integrity of U.K.C. records" as well as to bar those found to be in violation, from the registry.

Etc. Not to mention, if it's an English club, why are all the coonhound dudes here in UKC? Why is UKC sponsoring events here?

You really might want to check into the monkey business AKC has been up to, when it comes to the puppymills and factory breeders. For AKC, looks like $$$$ talks and they've decided to throw integrity to the wind.

[southerngurl]

The AKC is known for worrying about looks rather than ability to do what they were bred for. Few border collie people have anything nice to say about them. Although looks can tie into ability (body structure, ect) it's not the whole story.

[countrygrrrl]

From July 4, 2004 meeting of AKC (you can get a copy here. )

The Chair recognized Barbara Wicklund, Delegate for the Basset Hound Club of America, who spoke as follows:

Dennis, could you please clarify your statement from the beginning of the meeting about putting a puppy referral service online.

Mr. Sprung: Yes. What this will be is an optional service for breeders to list a litter on the ground, stating the number of dogs and bitches for sale and the contact information. The public may go directly to the breeder at the time they are actually looking to purchase an AKC puppy.

Mrs. Wicklund: Would that include commercial breeders whose dogs are AKC registered? And if so, I strenuously object.

Mr. Sprung: It would be optional to anybody who registers a litter with AKC and is in good standing with AKC.

Mrs. Wicklund: I think that in light of the attacks on AKC-registrable puppies, the fight that many of us are waging within our states against breeder, breeding restrictions and mandatory spay/neuter where we are trying desperately to differentiate the serious responsible hobby breeder from the commercial breeder, I beg of you to reconsider this. It’s not going to help us in fighting this kind of legislation.

Forwarded with permission to cross post............

I want to update you on the progression of AKC Delegate chat line
discussions which have gone on between me and at least two of the AKC
Board of Directors regarding the fancy's overwhelming objection to
the AKC instituting its online puppy sales racket.

An interesting thing happens on our Delegate chat line, when you
state an opinion which is contrary to what the Board members want to
hear, you are censored. I had this happen a couple of days ago in a
rather benign exchange with Mrs. Schaefer as she was trying to
convince us that the real reason why the AKC is doing this is to
educate all of the puppy buying public about the virtues of well
bred puppies coming from
discriminating breeders.

I merely said that that was complete nonsense, the AKC Board has no
such lofty goals, that this is all about making money and nothing
else, and that the Board of Directors should just go ahead and admit
this. This message was censored by the moderator, who is controlled
by the Board. I then gave the moderator a brief lecture on my First
Amendment rights, told her I was a lawyer, I fought for people's
rights in the courtroom every day, took my Constitutionally
guaranteed rights extremely seriously, and was not going to tolerate
anyone censoring my words, my opinions. I then asked her to forward
my post to the list. It
eventually showed up on the list.

This morning, after receiving yet a couple more rather inane posts
from
the powers that be defending this brilliant idea, I went to the Hunte
Corporation's website, out of curiosity. If you click on the link
which says "pick a puppy" - the site jumps immediately to our AKC
website section describing the different recognized breeds. Andrew
Hunte is a clever business man, and he has duped the AKC'S Board of
Directors into providing him with a wonderful outlet to sell his mass
produced puppies.

So, there you have it, the AKC, in its never ending lust for money,
will now be helping the largest mass producer of puppies in the world
to sell his produce.

name edited out
__________________________

The message from Lisa Summers is right on target. Dennis Sprung tried
to slip past the delegates in Nashville that AKC is going to "help"
puppy buyers contact breeders. We all thought he meant AKC was going
to link with parent clubs, giving enhanced visibility to their
respective "litter listings" and breeder referral people. Luckily,
the delegate from the Basset Hound Club of America was apparently
more suspicious, and asked for clarification. It was then that we
learned that AKC was planning to list any AKC-paper- eligible puppy,
even those from puppy mills!

The delegates erupted with a negative outburst, and the Delegate
List has been buzzing with outrage from delegates. Couple of
logistical
updates: The word" is that an AKC staff member, an executive within
the Registration Dept., is the moving force behind this miserable and
misguided initiative--and the Board is going to be discussing it
this month.

I have urged my parent club to write immediately, lodging the
strongest protest possible. The plan is abhorrent, and undermines
everything conscientious hobby breeders have worked for over these
many years!

All breeder referral folks, myself included, spend hundreds of hours
on the phone with prospective puppy buyers, trying to educate them
about the right way to research and purchase a puppy. As some breeder
referral people have said: "Why should we bother any more???!!!"

So now AKC is going to help Andrew Hunte sell the 85,000 puppies he
'"processes" each year? We all know the deplorable conditions these
puppies come out of, and even worse is the suffering of the brood
bitches and stud dogs. And we also know that it is terribly easy to
falsify litter information. I see what comes in from the pet shops at
Smithaven every day, and it is heartbreaking.
Pups that barely resemble the breed they are supposed to be, pups
that definitely are not what they are supposed to be, and almost all
filled with parasites, heart murmurs, respiratory problems, and
worse.

AKC is turning itself into a huge joke---all for the almighty $$$.
And
it gets better; they are now "licensing" the use of the AKC logo
(also
for $$$). On canine products, that might make sense. But they are
putting it on men's and women' apparel, vacuum cleaners, lamps,
bric-a-brac, etc. etc. Some of us are convinced that the staff and
the
Board have been drinking from the bowl of insanity!

Without exception, delegates have been screaming on line!

In my opinion, the arrogance and stupidity of this particular Board
and
new staff are overwhelming. And part of the problem, a big part, is
that many staffers have absolutely no real background in the dog
fancy--- just corporate thinking. And even some with a background seem
to be totally derailed.

All-breed clubs and parent clubs must weigh in with the Board asap--
and strongly. I have so urged the Beardie club, and am copying this
to Pat for SCKC. Letters and e-mails should go to Jim Crowley for
forwarding to the proper folks. Things are out of control. Do plan
to act! ________________________________

name edited
Vice President, Responsible Animal Owners of Tennessee - a nonprofit
organization promoting the humane treatment of animals and
responsible animal ownership - Because Love is Not Enough!