Howdy, folks, new to the forums here -- I've been contemplating a vaguely homesteading-type lifestyle for some time now. I'm currently working as a software developer in a big city, which is okay, but in the long run, I'd like to shift into a very different kind of lifestyle.
I have a setup for a series of questions. It's big. Y'all better get some popcorn.
A village encompassing 1-3 sections (square miles) of land, with a dense core much like an urban center, with parks and townhouses, surrounded by (mostly) agricultural processing and warehousing facilities, surrounded by a large number of small (2-5 acre), specialized farms. The economy would center around self-sustaining production of food and export of higher value density products -- goat cheese, honey, nuts, dried fruits, and the like. It would use very low-input, low mechanization tools. The ideal number of families/farms it would support before no longer operating well would be on the order of 200 to 600.
This is a bit more centralized than most homesteaders I know are into, but the centralization adds a lot to the efficiency and livability, from my perspective. If you're living close -within just a couple of blocks -- to a few hundred other families, you can take advantage of specialization to a much higher degree on a local scale, and effectively live off of much less.
It's somewhat modeled off of Taiwan's land reform program, which enabled their individual farmers to have global middle class incomes off of an average farm size of just over 1 hectare -- about 2.5 acres. It also takes some lessons from old school classic manorism and smart growth policies.
The fundamental idea is to focus on using sustainable, renewable techniques, labor-intensive industries, mutual credit, efficient lifestyle design, and export-oriented products. By slowly accumulating outside capital, and pouring our efforts into developing our land, we can all be bloody rich, have a great community, and have the kind of hardworking, building-something-from-nothing lifestyle we want.
I've done a lot of research and I've been consulting some close friends of mine -- one who has been a traveling goat farm hand for about 3 years, and another who is himself quasi-homesteader in a suburban environment, as well as lots of study of historical and modern farming villages.
The village itself would have, after people start popping babies out, maybe a couple thousand people. There would be a school, clinic, restaurants, breweries, etc. The difference is that for a starting cash price of just a few thousand bucks, and a whole lot of sweat equity, people could live well and support a family within just a handful of years, in a fairly.
Right now, I anticipate being the primary instigator of this thing, and it's going to take a few hundred thousand to a couple of million to kick off. It'll take me about five years before I'm at the lower end of that level in my current career.
So there's the setup.
I really want to know four things:
1) Is there anything out there like this that y'all folks know about?
2) Do many people find the idea appealing? As in, if such a thing were happening presently, would you sign up? What's the biggest draw, and what are the biggest deterrents?
It isn't quite the classical homestead go-it-alone approach, but it has a lot of similarities.
3) Any quick tweaks that you think would make the idea more appealing?
4) ...Anyone want the more detailed (pages and pages and pages) info on the nuts and bolts of how this whole thing would work?
1) Is there anything out there like this that y'all folks know about?
2) Do many people find the idea appealing? As in, if such a thing were happening presently, would you sign up? What's the biggest draw, and what are the biggest deterrents?
It isn't quite the classical homestead go-it-alone approach, but it has a lot of similarities.
3) Any quick tweaks that you think would make the idea more appealing?
4) ...Anyone want the more detailed (pages and pages and pages) info on the nuts and bolts of how this whole thing would work?
Ummm.....pretty sure that is 4 things.
The reason the 'classical homestead go-it-alone approach' IS classical is because in real life, people don't work all that well together in many cultures, including this one, unless they are forced to do so by circumstances.
There have been many attempts at forming communes over the years, but rarely do they last long. Every so often, somebody comes along here with the same idea (or similar enough), and it remains that....a dream.
Sorry it's a pipe dream. A nice pipe dream, though!
Anyplace with land productive enough for what you describe, and decent rainfall/climate, would take many millions to buy it up. Homesteader types by their nature are independent and trying to mold them into your vision would be herding cats. And the stakes are very high, people's futures are on the line, so there would be cat fights.
Maybe you'd be better off to find an existing village to settle in and try to start some cooperative ventures similar to your vision.
__________________ It is still best to be honest and truthful; to make the most of what we have; to be happy with the simple pleasures and to be cheerful and have courage when things go wrong.
Laura Ingalls Wilder
What you were talking about does sound interesting but sounds way too claustrophobic to me. 2.5 acres isn't much. To the homesteader types reading here, I suspect it would feel like little 2.5 acre sardines all packed together tightly with no s-p-a-c-e around them for things like woods and open pastures, forests and hills.
If you want to see communities that work in the culture that we find ourselves in in the US, you might consider checking out some of the groups such as the Amish, Mennonites, Quakers, Brethren and the like. They are not speculation but rather real people who have pretty much decided how much land they need to do what they do and have figured out how they all fit together as a community as well as how they relate to those around them that are not a part of their community.
why would I want to live in a urban environment. to be in the country?
in just the farmstead and buildings on my place there is close to 15 acres, my nearest neighbor is over a mile as the crow fly's,
basically your idea is a medieval plan they used for defense, or an Asia idea for land use,
may be for some they may like that love Urban environment, but most of us like the neighbors far away no one to keep up with no one cares if your lawn is green or brown or weeds, or if you have some Untidy items no one is trying to conform you in to some thing, or tax you on some thing,
but I think it may work for a urban homesteader who does not wan t leave the city, but I would guess most of them would soon loose the love of the land and the work,
IMO, you'd be lucky if you could find 10 families who would want to do that, let alone 200 to 600.
However having read about the earthquake that's overdue to hit the Pacific Northwest, at some point you might have a lot of people who would be interested if a horrific disaster happened.
But it sounds pretty socialistic to me, and too crowded, and no matter what you say, not a money maker for anyone but a few.
For that small of acreage you might want to think.. older generation?? There has been many a question by older/single homesteaders and such who still want to homestead but can't keep up with it all the time by themselves or they would like to head out and travel every once in awhile.
Good catch. I started with three, added the last one, didn't amend.
To address a few things here:
@TnAndy I'm not a fan of communes and think they fail for a good reason. I really don't want to start/live on a commune. It's more like a 'make a new town that operates in a new way from scratch' sort of thing. Land, houses, business, etc would be individually owned and operated, sellable on the open market, etc. The idea is just that a few things like housing and finance would be aimed at a new, local normal at the beginning of the process. It isn't "create an everlasting utopia according to my ideals", it's more "set the groundwork for an alternative way of life in a free market system which people can choose if they see fit". The only reason I even want to do that is because I want to have that alternative way of life for myself, but it just doesn't seem to exist, yet.
@ Bellyman: Actual plot sizes would vary -- Taiwan was an example about how it's possible to achieve very high productivity on a minimal amount of land with little mechanization. Depending on the acreage in question, it would be anywhere from 2.5 to 10, maybe 15 acres. Keep in mind, this is where the actual farming/production happens -- initially, all of the housing would be in the urban core (just a few acres). This is largely for purposes of ecological and economic efficiency. Dense housing has much lower environmental impact and is less costly both to produce and maintain. I figure that we would have some tree farms / forests further out . If you feel claustrophobic around people, though...probably not for you.
Regarding the existing similar communities...I actually first got thinking along these lines many years ago from learning a bit about the Amish. Upon realizing they were pulling this off, I was like "How in the world is that even possible?" and started learning more about biointensive agriculture and so on. I think that some pretty big improvements can be made over the Amish way of doing things (giving up horses and tractors, focusing on more productive forms of agriculture, more urban-style housing, etc)
@FarmerRuss I think money is more important than vision, really. The world has tons of vision. Visionaries are usually very awful with money, because they see it as an evil obstacle to their goals instead of as a tool. Thankfully, I do not suffer from that handicap. The Davis thing sounds cool -- I am going to have to see if I can go see that place, it's only a few hours away from me.
@MoCows, I actually do want to know if there are existing villages which are remotely similar -- places with a big emphasis on capital accumulation, efficiency, community, and so on. I'm not really trying to set up "cooperative ventures", so much as have a certain lifestyle with a combination of traits that's currently pretty rare.
RE: the land, that's an obstacle that I'm aware of. I've looked into mitigating that, but ultimately it's going to be a fairly slow process of building up the appropriate development (hoop/green houses, drip irrigation, etc) over several hundred acres to really make it work. I'm also aware of a few places with poor rainfall but that have adequate groundwater to make it work with much less extensive improvements. That will be one of the bigger challenges, though.
The human factor is another big one, of course. Ultimately, I *want* to be surrounded by smart, independent individuals who are going to do their own thing without following my lead. I honestly just want to have a lot of cool neighbors in a hybrid urban/rural environment that's sustainable. The way I see it, if I found even half a dozen resourceful people who wanted something vaguely similar, we could come up with a way to make it happen that's better than anything I could come up with on my own.
@Ziptie: That's an interesting idea, and one I hadn't really considered. My experience has been that there are quite a few cool old people who don't give a ---- (can I say ---- here?) and are willing to try anything, but I also feel a pretty strong need to be around other young people.
EDIT: Just to tag this on the end here -- does anybody know about anything vaguely similar? The criteria I'm really looking for is a place which emphasizes carless life, low ecological footprint, high interest in making money, and with an emphasis on renewable industries. If there's somewhere that something like this is already happening, I'm at least interested. Bonus points if it's not in a state with a horrible tax regime.
There's a long, long history of central planning failing miserably. Human nature takes over in even the most altruistic people. There obviously has to be some kind of taxation to pay for infrastructure and common area maintenance, who decides what's fair, and how many people will resent those decisions?
Although this is your idea, are you willing to give overall operational authority over to someone more capable? I've read many similar plans, but always get the feeling the person writing it envisions themselves as running things.
@TnAndy I'm not a fan of communes and think they fail for a good reason. I really don't want to start/live on a commune. It's more like a 'make a new town that operates in a new way from scratch' sort of thing. Land, houses, business, etc would be individually owned and operated, sellable on the open market, etc. The idea is just that a few things like housing and finance would be aimed at a new, local normal at the beginning of the process.
1. You're talking millions and millions of bucks if you think taking a raw hunk of land and creating this new town.
2. You must not understand capital (the pile of money version).
Either you're going to operate a debt based money system like we do here, where the banks basically create the loaned money out of thin air, and debt has to increase ad infinitum to pay back that money + interest, OR you're going to start with a huge pile of capital (whose ? ) and dole it out to 'finance' the housing and rest of the infrastructure you'd need to pull off this dream.....and then hope your local economy can compete with corporate farming to support itself. Good luck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boweja777
The only reason I even want to do that is because I want to have that alternative way of life for myself, but it just doesn't seem to exist, yet.
You want an alternative lifestyle that will set you apart from 99% of America ?
Get out from behind the computer, quit over thinking this, buy a small homestead and GET TO WORK...not 'farmville' or YouTube, or "I've got a friend that....." ....ACTUAL bone numbing, callus building, back breaking WORK....
Raise most of your own food, produce most of your own energy, build every single building on your place, be the water guy, the power guy, the grocer, the butcher, the farmer, the builder, the electrician, the animal vet, the mechanic, the welder, the baker, the candlestick maker, and every other dang job. Like Nike commercial used to say "Just Do It". Lot of the people here do just this instead of spending their time inventing grandiose plans that will never happen.
There's a long, long history of central planning failing miserably.
True story, and don't get me wrong -- I'm a very pro free market person.
However, we've seen quasi-planned economies in late feudal and early industrial Germany (read up on the Prussian model of development) and modern Asia go very well. The key is that these plans allow for a lot of flexibility and decentralization of power and decision making, as well as letting markets and consumer demand make the decisions about how resources are allocated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozarks Tom
Human nature takes over in even the most altruistic people. There obviously has to be some kind of taxation to pay for infrastructure and common area maintenance, who decides what's fair, and how many people will resent those decisions?
We already have infrastructure maintenance though townships and HOAs -- I don't see this as being so different. Probably in the more housing-oriented areas we'd have it be HOA-oriented decision making and funding and in the outer areas it'd be more township-heavy in decision-making. People are already resentful of existing power structures; this is really just another option. It won't be a utopia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozarks Tom
Although this is your idea, are you willing to give overall operational authority over to someone more capable? I've read many similar plans, but always get the feeling the person writing it envisions themselves as running things.
Yes. Dear God, yes. There is no way for a single person to effectively control this sort of thing, IMO. I wouldn't "give up overall operational authority to someone more competent" so much as "let people make their own ---- decisions and take care of themselves given a handful of minor institutional tweaks". My own involvement would mostly be in doing the initial development work -- getting the appropriate areas rezoned, getting infrastructure like power, water, sewage, wells, credit union, etc in place, and then looking for the right kind of buyers/owners. I don't want to run this place, really, I just want to live in it. If it already existed, and I could skip several years of grinding corporate work accumulating the capital necessary to get started, I'd just join up in a heart beat.
Okay, we're in! But, under one condition. We get to be the local tavern owners. I'll be the bartender and my wife the barmaid. I think we'll need more than a hectare to grow the grain and hops that we'll need.
Okay, we're in! But, under one condition. We get to be the local tavern owners. I'll be the bartender and my wife the barmaid. I think we'll need more than a hectare to grow the grain and hops that we'll need.
Perhaps WIHH has other thoughts. She might end up being the bartender and you the barmaid. Hope you have the cleavage for that skimpy barmaid outfit.
1. You're talking millions and millions of bucks if you think taking a raw hunk of land and creating this new town
2. You must not understand capital (the pile of money version).
Either you're going to operate a debt based money system like we do here, where the banks basically create the loaned money out of thin air, and debt has to increase ad infinitum to pay back that money + interest, OR you're going to start with a huge pile of capital (whose ? ) and dole it out to 'finance' the housing and rest of the infrastructure you'd need to pull off this dream.....and then hope your local economy can compete with corporate farming to support itself. Good luck.
Some of each is the current plan. A big pile of capital along with a credit union, with the reserve covered by export of (probably) goat cheese, nuts, dried fruit, etc. You know credit unions only have a 3% reserve ratio until they have 10s of millions in assets? Of course, any movement of money out of the credit union (taxes, financing, retirement funds, whatever) means money coming out of that reserve ratio, but that's what exports are for. Per your just do it sentiment, it would be pretty moronic of me to attempt this now, when I've just paid off my student loans, and when I only have one or two potential marketing channels for those exports.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnAndy
You want an alternative lifestyle that will set you apart from 99% of America ?
Get out from behind the computer, quit over thinking this, buy a small homestead and GET TO WORK...not 'farmville' or YouTube, or "I've got a friend that....." ....ACTUAL bone numbing, callus building, back breaking WORK....
Raise most of your own food, produce most of your own energy, build every single building on your place, be the water guy, the power guy, the grocer, the butcher, the farmer, the builder, the electrician, the animal vet, the mechanic, the welder, the baker, the candlestick maker, and every other dang job. Like Nike commercial used to say "Just Do It". Lot of the people here do just this instead of spending their time inventing grandiose plans that will never happen.
Tough Love, but there it is.
I get where you're coming from, but it seems you're under the impression that I want to just go out and make all/most of my own stuff. I'm not looking for that in and of itself -- I'm looking to belong in a community oriented around those things, because I am a very social being. Since that community is either very bad at marketing itself or doesn't exist, or is populated by people that I find really bizarre and offputting, I have extra steps before that stage.
Thankfully, I know lots of people who are very good at many things, I make boatloads of money, and I'm young and have a lot of time to get this sorted out, so I can afford to sit back and think about how to get what I actually want.
I appreciate the general sentiment. I'm a big believer in avoiding analysis paralysis. But analyzing and taking action is better than just taking action. I'll just keep doing that, thanks.
I thought you might pick up some pointers on what has worked to keep it going and then apply it to your vision.
Best wishes
I appreciate it, and I very well might. I think it's worth noting that the closest thing most people seem to have achieved is fairly mystical and communal. I'm not sure what that's indicative of, but it's probably important.
Your post made me think of this: http://www.sewaneecreek.com/ I came across this some time ago just browsing the net.
As for my personal opinion ... I would never want to homestead in a development that has rules like HOAs - even if the initial parameters of the village were appealing. Over time people come up with more rules because people will always come up with things they don't like. I would never want to live right next to someone else even if I had another 30 acres in another part of the village to do my farming.
I also have to agree with TnAndy about taking some time to homestead yourself so that you can design your dream community with some actual experience in homesteading.
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