My advise to people under thirty.

[just_sawing]

I have just reached a mile stone. I have now fired 15 people in 2 years.
What is so sad that the last person has three kids at home and was supposedly desperate for a job. I on purpose start people at the bottom (This time was eight dollars per hour to move boxes into storage). He did not show up and since I had let him borrow a utility trailer to haul firewood I went to his home. He was still asleep at ten in the morning. He apologized and said the right words. I gave him another chance "Call me at eight thursday morning to get started. At ten he was fired , he forgot to call.
What the shame is I have jobs coming up that pay very well. But I am not going to give them to people that only show up when they feel like it. If you want a good job be there early and push for more work. Take care of the business because that is what is paying you.
It goes back to a engineer that was complaining to me about work. I explained that I wanted to hire him and would pay him one million dollars to work for me. All he had to do is produce 1.2 million and I would keep everyone off his back. He said that he could not do that and I told him OK I would pay him 500 thousand if he would make 700. He said again he couldn't do that. I then told him I would pay him $7.25 to off bear on my mill because that was what he was worth.
Most seem to want me to adopt them and then watch me work. I don't need an audience I need people that add to my farm and if you don't your fired.

[willow_girl]

It may help to rethink your strategy a bit, especially if what you're doing isn't working.

For instance, you say you start people off low, at $8 an hour, and work up from there if they're any good. Do you let them know at the outset what the pay scale is, and how quickly they can expect to move up if their performance is acceptable? Doing so might help you attract a better caliber of employee. Because offering $8 at the outset (especially without a promise of more) will get you one kind of worker, versus offering, say, $12.

Or to put it another way, a hard worker may have more and better options than an $8-an-hour job, and won't find it attractive. That may leave you hiring bottom-of-the-barrel types who aren't the best employees.

I remember an old farmer sharing a piece of advice with me. He said he hired mostly high school kids and offered a buck or two more per hour than the fast-food chains in town were paying, which allowed him to take the "pick of the litter."

[DEKE01]

Amen. I'm the same way except that I have a guy that does good work most of the time but is very undependable. So I've given him a to do list of stuff that isn't time critical and he does them when ever at min wage. I would pay him more and give him full time work, but I can't risk scheduling time critical projects not knowing if he will show because he has a hangover or the weather is bad or he needs to take his wife shopping.

[Sawmill Jim]

Done been down that road , on the very last I had a good helper .Thing with a circle mill and a off bearer is they had a board or slab ever time they turned around . I think my record was a half day for one guy

I got me a job the other day redoing the breaks and wheel bearings on a 1961 C60 truck I get there around 9:30 and work till I get tired . My pay is my dinner and a little fire wood .

[tarbe]

A mentor of mine once told me "The best way to get a promotion to a new and better job is to do great things with the job you have now".

Another (very) wise man once said that if you want to be trusted with much, you first must be trustworthy with little.

Good luck trying to secure a better quality of employee!

[fireweed farm]

$8/hr, 40 hrs per week is $320. What is $320 going to buy, and he even has kids?
What's he going to go up to $8.50 or even 10? What ever it is, they are going to be looking elsewhere the entire time, you are just a stepping stone to help pay rent.

There's no diamond in the rough when you pay $8, you get what you pay for.

[Sawmill Jim]

Originally Posted by fireweed farm

$8/hr, 40 hrs per week is $320. What is $320 going to buy, and he even has kids?
What's he going to go up to $8.50 or even 10? What ever it is, they are going to be looking elsewhere the entire time, you are just a stepping stone to help pay rent.

There's no diamond in the rough when you pay $8, you get what you pay for.

Don't know about Canada but here $320 a week sure beats a snowball for supper .I never worked for anyone where I wasn't looking for a better deal in one way or another . Some jobs I worked more because I liked what I was doing more so than just the money . After hunting help for my sawmill I learned there is just several people would't be on time for taste tester at a pie factory for any amount of money

If I had two children and a hungry wife I would be camped on just- sawings door step

[FarmboyBill]

$320 CASH isn't bad. $320 with taxes and whatever, isn't good. Ive worked sawmills. Was gonna be a head sawyer on one if I had stayed the winter afte they shut down. I started off bearer loading 6X6s 6X8s 6X10s and 6X12s for to make car stops in parking lots. No one helping me. I was a young early 30s bull. Now my ankles are shot. It can be hard work.

[FarmboyBill]

Woops, Didn't do 6X12s.

[Harry Chickpea]

I couldn't even begin to count the number of employees I've hired and fired. 15 gone in 2 years isn't bad at all, especially in a heavy work environment. I'll be the first to admit that I wouldn't have had the stamina required for such work, no matter how much I wanted it.

Another factor in turnover is the area. In Vermont, I had minimal staff turnover. In Miami and south Florida, employees only lasting a few months was common.

I do see something in your post where you are trying to be caring but may inadvertently be sending the wrong message. There are plenty of bosses who do it, and many get away with it, but once you get to having more than a half dozen employees, you might want to consider making a change or two in employee relations.

I cut my problems with employees not showing up or showing up on time to an absolute minimum, with almost no effort on my part. In the intake interview, I set out the rules. One of those was - "You will be on a schedule. The schedule will be posted a week in advance. If you cannot make a shift, or are too ill to make your shift, you may give your shift to another employee or swap shifts - PROVIDING I am notified at least the day before and approve. It is NOT my job to find a replacement for you and I will not do that. If you do not show up on time ready to work even once, I will assume that you have quit or died unless you show me the hospital bill. You will be able to pick up your final pay on the normal payday - no recriminations, but no excuses or re-hire. Do you fully understand me?"

That was often the turning point in an interview. I've had a few slackers recognize after that rule setting that they weren't going to be able to play games and decide to go no further. I'd much rather a walk-out at an induction interview than after having spent time training and doing the required paperwork.

The effect of such a policy is that the employee has a little flexibility and freedom, but any employee that abuses that will be made to shape up or ousted by the other employees, most times without the need of intervention from the boss.

I'm going to be a bit sexist here and say that my experience has been that most men picked it up real fast, but women would test it, and women managers either got the idea of not micro-managing or they didn't, and those who didn't rarely progressed successfully.

[TraderBob]

Originally Posted by fireweed farm

$8/hr, 40 hrs per week is $320. What is $320 going to buy, and he even has kids?
What's he going to go up to $8.50 or even 10? What ever it is, they are going to be looking elsewhere the entire time, you are just a stepping stone to help pay rent.

There's no diamond in the rough when you pay $8, you get what you pay for.

Depends where you live..$8 an hour is a good wage in many places.

If they are too lazy to show up, or to make an effort to do a good job so as to prove their worth, they aren't worth that much.

People would rather go on aid than actually work, because they "get more".

What a garbage society we live in, our founders would roll in their graves to see us now.

Minimum wage was 7.25 here...it went up to 7.75. It's livable here..maybe not where you are. We don't worry about keeping up with the Jones either.

[coolrunnin]

The thing your forgetting these folks aren't invested in the business like you are, everyone needs a little hook to keep 'em coming in every morning (or at least thats been my experience) be it a fair wage, dinner, heck even a pat on the back when its done right and no yelling when its done wrong.

And that 320 bucks after taxes is what around $250. According to WSJ Tenn. average welfare compinsation is $334 a week your competing against that rightly or wrongly.

[arabian knight]

Originally Posted by coolrunnin

And that 320 bucks after taxes is what around $250. According to WSJ Tenn. average welfare compinsation is $334 a week your competing against that rightly or wrongly.

Well THAt right there is part of the problem. LOWER it so people WILL WORK. Get them OFF the government help by Not making it so good for them to just sit home playing video games and watching the tube of nonsense reality.

[mzgarden]

Just wondering -- have you (or could you) experiment to see if it works out differently if you pay $10 or $12/hour. In our area, most people would likely compare working a physically demanding job for $8/hour to the offer of food stamps, free or subsidized rent, free health care, subsidized utilities, etc and choose to stay home. Sad but true.

[Fennick]

Originally Posted by fireweed farm

$8/hr, 40 hrs per week is $320. What is $320 going to buy, and he even has kids?
What's he going to go up to $8.50 or even 10? What ever it is, they are going to be looking elsewhere the entire time, you are just a stepping stone to help pay rent.

There's no diamond in the rough when you pay $8, you get what you pay for.

Wages and cost of living is quite different in the States compared to Canada so I think you have to look at it from a different perspective.

$8 an hour in most states in the USA will provide more than what it would provide in Canada because prices of almost all things in USA are a lot less than they are in Canada. Another thing to consider is that low income Americans get a lot of other benefits and freebies (like food stamps for example) that aren't available to low income people in Canada. Also, although it varies from state to state the minimum wage in Just Sawing's state (Tennessee) is $7.25 an hour. So Just Sawing is already offering .75 cents per hour more than the minimum wage starting salary for someone starting at the bottom of the ladder in an unskilled labour job moving boxes. It could be worse, if the guy was working at a job that allows tips then minimum tipped wage is only $2.13 an hour in Tennessee and a tipped employee has to depend on their tips to make a real living. The tipped wage concept doesn't even exist in Canada and would be illegal.

[geo in mi]

Don't know where your labor pool is coming from, but it looks like your choices are limited to those that aren't too ambitious, or to those that have a previous record of being undependable with other bosss already. They are becoming trapped in their own lifestyle and from what they learned from their parents and their circumstances--from childhood up...not much anybody can do with them.

Around here, the good workers are pre-qualified and pre-selected by the guys down at the Teapot Dome over the bisquits and gravy. They may be somebody's nephew or a neighbor kid who has worked for one of the guys before--and he will carry his own reputation long before you get to hire him. Face it. You are hiring from the bottom of the barrel, and the only way to get the good ones is by being on the inside crowd--plus having your own reputation for being a good boss, a man worth working for. The good ones have been sifted out and are already working; you are getting the tailings.

Your other options might be to move your mill to China, or to hire migrants......

My opinion.

geo

[bja105]

15 failed employees in two years does not indicate 15 bad people. The common denominator is the boss. The guy hiring and managing these people is the problem. If you truly need the help, better change something.

[Tricky Grama]

Originally Posted by fireweed farm

$8/hr, 40 hrs per week is $320. What is $320 going to buy, and he even has kids?
What's he going to go up to $8.50 or even 10? What ever it is, they are going to be looking elsewhere the entire time, you are just a stepping stone to help pay rent.

There's no diamond in the rough when you pay $8, you get what you pay for.

So, if that is the going wage for most in your part of the woods-perhaps even more, what do you suggest for someone w/o experience? W/o skills?

[Gravytrain]

Originally Posted by Harry Chickpea

I cut my problems with employees not showing up or showing up on time to an absolute minimum, with almost no effort on my part. In the intake interview, I set out the rules. One of those was - "You will be on a schedule. The schedule will be posted a week in advance. If you cannot make a shift, or are too ill to make your shift, you may give your shift to another employee or swap shifts - PROVIDING I am notified at least the day before and approve. It is NOT my job to find a replacement for you and I will not do that. If you do not show up on time ready to work even once, I will assume that you have quit or died unless you show me the hospital bill. You will be able to pick up your final pay on the normal payday - no recriminations, but no excuses or re-hire. Do you fully understand me?"

That was often the turning point in an interview. I've had a few slackers recognize after that rule setting that they weren't going to be able to play games and decide to go no further. I'd much rather a walk-out at an induction interview than after having spent time training and doing the required paperwork.

Very well said Harry. I currently have about 50 employees ranging from $7.50/hour to $110,000/year. I have very low turnover rates for my industries. Letting the interviewee know the rules of the game up front and holding them accountable makes a world of difference. Some principles that I manage by are:

• Rules are explained at the interview
• keep hiring when you think you are well staffed..."let the cream rise to the top"
• Hire slow, fire fast
• No call, no show? Gone, now.
• Red ants (employees with poor attitudes/work ethic) multiply rapidly. Get rid of them immediately
• Pay your best employees more than you can afford to pay them...let everyone know that they are on a different pay level AND WHY
• Sometimes intrinsic motivation is more powerful than extrinsic motivation... that is, recognizing a job well done is as important that cold, hard cash.
• If a particular employee is making you rich...make THEM rich. It will pay you far more than it will cost you.
• If an employee is costing you money...correct it, or get them gone, fast!
• training is everything, but if you find an employee doesn't have the aptitude or attitude for the job, don't hold out hope that you can change them.
• Ask your best employees if they have any friends of family that would excel with us... exceptional people often travel in packs.
• When a quality applicant walks in off the street, DON'T set up an interview for another time. DO IT NOW! A quality applicant will not be around for an interview later in the week. Someone will snatch him or her right away.

Originally Posted by arabian knight

Well THAt right there is part of the problem. LOWER it so people WILL WORK. Get them OFF the government help by Not making it so good for them to just sit home playing video games and watching the tube of nonsense reality.

“I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”

― Benjamin Franklin


.

[willow_girl]

If I had two children and a hungry wife

No one in America who has 2 kids is going hungry ... the government makes sure of that.

Gravytrain, I wish I could 'like' your post twice!