Flatlanders Want to Be Vermont Homesteaders

[dltasig7]

7 Years may seem like a ways away, but that's when my wife and I will have the last kid out of high school and can move to "the country" to start a homestead. We are very seriously considering Vermont. We know we can't jump in with both feet right away, but we need to begin planning, saving, visiting the state to see where we'd like to purchase land, etc.

Mostly we want to know what we'd start up right away, gradually get into, and what we need to read up on in the mean time.

We'd definitely be starting up on a budget!

We're NOT "city dwellers." For instance, our idea of camping luxuries are a water source, dry wood, a tent and a sleeping bag. I'm an experienced hunter and fisherman, and have gardened all my life. I'm very handy with construction and carpentry and have done a lot of landscaping (including tree care.)We are both very experienced in Outdoor Skills.

Having said all that, we can't believe what we read about Vermont being so expensive that it's impossible to "make it" there from scratch. One of us would have at least a full time job to start, and we plan on eating as much of what we hunt and otherwise produce on our own as soon as possible. Anything beyond plumbing, electric, a land line, a pick-up and a gun store will be considered extreme luxuries. (Heating with wood, etc.)

Anybody want to talk us out of it?

[Harry Chickpea]

The one thing you have to your advantage is being from Rochester, so the snow and cold won't faze you. I grew up in Vermont and lived there as an adult for quite a while. It was expensive then, but more so now.

Unless you post your land, hunters and trespassers can walk all over it with impunity. If you post it, they will tear down your signs and then walk over it with impunity.

The beautiful four season scenes do not happen year-round. Most days are far less picturesque, with snow, rain, clouds, and darkness. Planting season is short. Taxes are high.

Back when Vermont was more rural and agrarian, the infrastructure was set up for the average person. These days, businesses cater to the rich transplants and vacationers, leaving the residents not able to afford to dine in the restaurants or ski at the ski resorts they work for. The disparity of wealth is disheartening.

Land use restrictions and permit processes limit what landowners can do. Did I mention that taxes are high?

It is possible, with effort, to make a go of living in Vermont. I submit that choosing to do so without a pressing need to live there is not the best choice. Truthfully, this area of Alabama is more like the Vermont that I grew up in than Vermont is now.

[stanb999]

It's likely cheaper to just stay in NY. Land is exceedingly cheap off the beaten path. You can even find "unincorporated" land if your willing to look so taxes will be near cheap.

If you have your heart set on VT. go north... Cost of living is still reasonable but the winters will be much longer and colder than your used to.

[highlands]

Originally Posted by dltasig7

we can't believe what we read about Vermont being so expensive that it's impossible to "make it" there from scratch. One of us would have at least a full time job to start, and we plan on eating as much of what we hunt and otherwise produce on our own as soon as possible. Anything beyond plumbing, electric, a land line, a pick-up and a gun store will be considered extreme luxuries. (Heating with wood, etc.)

I think "Vermont is expensive" is a myth some people use to discourage flatlanders. Can't see any real justification for the myth other than that. We live in Vermont and we live on very little.

Maybe if you wanted to live in Woodstock, Norwich, Burlington or somewhere like that it might be expensive but it's cheap out here in the sticks.

We farm for a living, earning everything we have from our land. It doesn't happen overnight. You have to develop the skills, the infrastructure, the markets, the product. But it is very doable and we know many people who do it from homesteading to farmsteading.

We don't have a pickup. Van's more practical for us:



http://sugarmtnfarm.com/2014/09/20/ambulance-here/

-Walter

[Eco-]

I grew up in Danville Vermont and had a dream like childhood. Raising our own sheep &chicken for food, large gardens, horses, working on farms, raw cow milk....I could go on and on. Most of the people we knew were farmers or hippies (early 1970's) that got too high to find their way to Canada to avoid the war(joke). Nice people but in some cases SLOW to accept outsiders....pretty much everyone was a flatlander until they did their time. On a recent trip back to a 25 year class reunion I was called a flatlander and everyone agreed that I'm a flatlander because I live in MA....didn't matter if I lived on flat land or not.

If you have money you can make it, jobs in some areas are a little tough to find. Good luck if you end up making the move!

[philm]

if youre used to cold and snow and close to zone 4 growing zone, northern WI/MN, and the UP of Michigan is beautiful. Land is cheaper and taxes arent that bad. Mine are $1000. But i grew up in the midwest so im biased.

[dltasig7]

When you say "it's cheap out here in the sticks," could one of us drive to a car dealership within 1/2 hour to an hour in good weather? (That's where the wife has work experience.)

[dltasig7]

Originally Posted by highlands

"it's cheap out here in the sticks"
-Walter

Walter, When you say "it's cheap out here in the sticks," could one of us drive to a car dealership within 1/2 hour to an hour in good weather? (That's where the wife has work experience - Honda in particular.) Thanks, Todd.

[Midgard]

Check out northeastern Washington or Idaho. There is some wonderful country here and great people.

Ed

[vtwhelen]

I live on a farm in Vt and harry chickpea has it right. No jobs,high taxes and large disparity in income. If you dont have a goverment job its real hard. We also dont need any more flatlanders. Flatlanders move to the state for the "quility" of life and then vote to make this statr just like were they came from

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[Micheal]

Living only bout a 2 hour drive from VT I've discovered it's a very nice place to do lunch, visit, sight-see, and has lots of things going on year round; but as others have mentioned it can get very expensive very fast even off the beaten path - same with NH.....

[Use Less]

I don't begin to think of the Rochester area as "flat land" . My understanding is land in Vermont is $$, and jobs exist in the couple of cities... I think I'd be looking in NY's Southern Tier or the highlands outside the Adirondack Park Blue Line. Jobs may not be a lot easier to find, but land can be found for not so much. If you really want to be in the mountains, go into the Adks, just don't expect to buy acreage or waterfront.

[Gravytrain]

If you are dead set on moving north from Rochester...I'd keep going a bit farther and look at Maine. Much lower taxes, more abundant homesteading land, and an overall independent, liberty minded spirit. Coming from the socialist republic of New York, it'd probably be a breath of fresh air.

However, if you are looking for cheap land, low taxes, low regulation, etc., but are hoping to transform your new state to be a little more like New York...do us all a favor and stay in New York.

[Gravytrain]

Originally Posted by Use Less

I don't begin to think of the Rochester area as "flat land" . My understanding is land in Vermont is $$, and jobs exist in the couple of cities... I think I'd be looking in NY's Southern Tier or the highlands outside the Adirondack Park Blue Line. Jobs may not be a lot easier to find, but land can be found for not so much. If you really want to be in the mountains, go into the Adks, just don't expect to buy acreage or waterfront.

There are couple of farms within a few miles of me in Chautauqua county that I would love to buy because they are beautiful and cheap. However, the saving from that cheap price would be countered in a couple years by property taxes that are 4 times what they are here in my little corner of PA.

[bigjon]

if u ignore Cuomo,we here in cny have cheap taxes-decent crop growin climate-easy access to garden markets.heres the but-tillable ground here In Cayuga county is climbing quickly in price.our road is only 4 miles long-rural still, north end=$5000 an acre,south end - just brought $4500 an acre.all above is sandy loam.and I sit in the middle with my 31 acres. retirement plan?don't know yet,but not Vermont or n.h.been there liked them,maine also-nah-too cold.my point is u can homestead here in n.y.

[highlands]

Originally Posted by dltasig7

When you say "it's cheap out here in the sticks," could one of us drive to a car dealership within 1/2 hour to an hour in good weather? (That's where the wife has work experience.)

There is a car dealership about 7 minutes from us, another about 15 minutes and several more within half an hour in multiple directions.

Originally Posted by Eco-

Nice people but in some cases SLOW to accept outsiders...

It is important, no matter where you go, to go in slowly. This is true of Vermont, NH and all sorts of places. The problem, the reason "flatlanders" get a bad name is they come into the town and start trying to change things and tell people what to do. That's the worst way to do it. New people need to ease in slowly. Be nice but don't be trying to change the local government, zoning, regulations, etc. That really ------ of the people who have been there for generations. They rightfully feel invaded.

Originally Posted by vtwhelen

I live on a farm in Vt and harry chickpea has it right. No jobs,high taxes and large disparity in income.

Funny, I live on a farm in VT and see the opposite. Lots of work, taxes are reasonable, most people around here are around a reasonable income distribution. Perhaps you're in one of those places like Woodstock that I noted above which are pockets of great wealth.

A great many folks around here make their own jobs. Lots of small employers who employ a few people and lots of people who work for themselves doing things, like farming, forestry, carpentry, roofers, electricians, plumbers, lawyers, doctors, dentists and even some car dealers.

Most of all, Vermont is not uniform, it is not vanilla, it is not all the same. Pick your location carefully to match your goals. If you want high cost of living and fancy then Woodstock is the place to be. If you want least expensive then the North East Kingdom fits the bill. Lots in between. What there isn't any of in Vermont is cities. What we call cities here in Vermont would be called small towns in most of the country.

Have fun planning your move. It's a journey in many ways.

-Walter

[geo in mi]

My impression of Vermont and New Hampshire is that "out in the sticks" is actually out in the rocks. If you pursue agriculture that involves tilling or working the soil, you should be ready to hit rocks.

And, our local car dealership, both GM, and Ford is owned by the same local "oligarch". He employs his sons, brothers, cousins, nephews and any other "kin" before he hires any outsiders.

And if you live away from the populated areas, you shouldn't expect folks to come to you to buy your artisan products, or really any other homestead products. You'll have to go to them.

I think all the good places in Vermont are owned by the calendar publishers.

geo

[vtwhelen]

I am sorry if I came off harsh. I found out my faimly will have have to buy new sugering equipment because of new regs on silver solder(lead) . Our "rig" was bought new in the 90s . This costs around100k . Vermont is a great place in some ways. We do have alot of small independent buisnesses but if you work for one expect lower pay and little benifits due to the companys size. Its like that anywere though. Also the pay in Vt is lower than say the south east for the same jobs. If you do any " homesteading" stuff direct to consumer is the way to go. Vt doese have some great farmers markets spread through out the state . So yeah theres good and bad.

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[highlands]

Originally Posted by geo in mi

My impression of Vermont and New Hampshire is that "out in the sticks" is actually out in the rocks. If you pursue agriculture that involves tilling or working the soil, you should be ready to hit rocks.

Yes... Rocks are our main product here in Vermont and New Hampshire. They grow quite nicely in our fields which is why we have such lovely stone walls.

Originally Posted by geo in mi

And, our local car dealership, both GM, and Ford is owned by the same local "oligarch". He employs his sons, brothers, cousins, nephews and any other "kin" before he hires any outsiders.

As it should be. Always kin before kith.

Originally Posted by geo in mi

And if you live away from the populated areas, you shouldn't expect folks to come to you to buy your artisan products, or really any other homestead products.

Yes... True of anywhere. That's why we live out in the sticks and truck our products to the stores and restaurants in the populated areas around us. That's how it's always been pretty much everywhere. I'm surprised at your surprise. Farming in the city wouldn't make much sense as the land is so expensive there.

Originally Posted by geo in mi

I think all the good places in Vermont are owned by the calendar publishers.

No, they just come by seasonally to take photos.

---

Originally Posted by vtwhelen

I am sorry if I came off harsh. I found out my faimly will have have to buy new sugering equipment because of new regs

I can understand your frustration. We're in the same boat. We have a large sugar bush and big sugarhouse but we won't be sugaring for a while because of these new regulations. The cost is too high to replace all the pans with stainless steel. We'll probably make our own to keep down the costs but it is still a lot of work and cost in materials.

-Walter

[geo in mi]

"Yes... True of anywhere. That's why we live out in the sticks and truck our products to the stores and restaurants in the populated areas around us. That's how it's always been pretty much everywhere. I'm surprised at your surprise. Farming in the city wouldn't make much sense as the land is so expensive there."

Highlands, no I'm not surprised, but trying to tone down any romantic notions that a newcomer might have that would lead to failure from the get-go. Yes, so true of anywhere....."If you build it, they will come" only happens in the movies, huh?

But they are beginning to farm in Detroit--just as soon as the city knocks down some more vacant buildings...

geo