Finding Land for a New Homestead

[Onyx]

Hey All,

My wife and I are very excited to get out of the rat race and start our own homestead! We finally got out of the mortgage trap and have a bit of cash for a land purchase.
We are both mid 30's and have 6 kids (2 who don't live with us from a previous marriage).

Here are some of the requirements we were applying while looking for land:

• At least 10 acres to have a bit of a privacy buffer.
• Have a southern facing, low slope section.
• We enjoy wooded, hilly environments. Not crazy about very flat areas.
• Prefer a nice stream on or near the property. Could be used for hydropower.
• Couple of acres of wooded section for wood heating?
• Low regulation area since we will be using composting toilets, strawbale housing, livestock, solar power, multiple dwellings (future guest house), water collecting, and grey water treatment.
• Low humidity. We prefer colder areas over hot.
• Avoid swampy areas and flood zones.
• Prefer other homesteading neighbors if possible.
• Prefer access to cable internet. We could run our own wire on the property. If not, can probably make due with satellite connectivity.
• Most family is near WV and PA, but we can make flying arrangements for visits.
• Homeschooling friendly.
• Farmer's markets or other natural markets for trade. Could also trade with other neighbors who grow their own.
• Doesn't have to be close to a city for jobs, I'm going to attempt to work from home using software skills.

I'm currently leaning towards NH mainly due to my initial interest in the Free State Project and the hope that it would have less regulations going forward. Also that area seems very friendly for locally produced goods. I also like the look of the moss covered granite in the rugged streams and conifers.

We are open to options though since this will hopefully be our permanent home. My wife was leaning towards VT because she has some friends there, but I'm a bit cautious of the extra regulations there. The other area we were interested in were northern Idaho for the ruggedness and beauty and possibly western Montana. I had read some warnings about invasive Canadian Wolf species in that area though.

I grew up in WV area, but haven't been too happy about the government regulations and what is being done to the land with gas drilling and clear cutting.

We're mainly hoping to lean on some experience from other homesteaders based on your areas to see if those areas above are good considerations or there are areas that we are missing.

• What areas would you recommend to look at to satisfy the above requirements and others we didn't think of for homesteading? It could be outside of US, we are just not very familiar with other areas.
• What do you think about the choices of NH, VT, Northern ID, Western MT? What are some pros/cons of these areas from your experience?

Thanks!
-Onyx

[simi-steading]

hhhm.. wow.. well... Um....

I'm in WV, and love it... We left DC and moved here... I can build what I want, no government to ask or file permits for, and no clear cutting.. We do have some fracking going on though, but it's not effecting me, other than today when a truck got stuck on the main road... Taxes are dirt cheap too...

It's all in where you live... Some places can be a real nightmare, other places, not so much... all within a few miles of each other too...

As far as a buffer zone... .10 acres won't give you that much, especially if you are in an area that has cable.... Cable and homesteading and living in the stix don't really go together well in a sentence... If there is cable, then that means there are enough people in the area to justify it, and then you don't have the buffer zone you want...

Dumping TV was the best thing we ever did.. We got Satellite internet.. that's it... Other wise, I'm too busy to watch TV..

Not trying to pry into your finances, but what are you planning to do for money? My wife and I left the rat race, but she still has to work full time in Corp America to fund this place... I do the work... I make the bacon, she makes the cash to buy the pig to make the bacon from...

We left with a big chunk of money.. now we have a little chunk... As the old saying goes.. I'll keep farming until it's gone.... and man does it go fast... especially when you are just starting out and have a lot you need to build and buy...

As far as living in the country, most people do what's called homesteading... doing what they need to do to get by... especially if they aren't looking to make a lot of money...

Others work a 9-5, then do all their gardening and canning and such in their spare time.... You can either go full bore homesteading, and do it cheaply, or you can do what time allows while you make the money to afford to do what you want/can do.

Don't give up on local area if you want to stay close to family.. Not all of WV or PA is sold out to oil and logging.

[simi-steading]

Oh.. sorry, I see you say you will want to stay home and code or similar, so I see the need for cable... Still kinda hard to get cable and live in the country, but it can be done...

Satellite could be a problem. It doesn't like to work well with things like Citrix or VPNs...

[Onyx]

Thanks for the info simi!

The last regulation that irritated us in WV was the passing of the Bill 371 that was pretty much an exotic animal tax. At the time my wife had several ball pythons and our daughter had a bearded dragon. We had to rehome them in response to this new regulation. Of course it could be argued who could enforce it if you were far enough out and no one said anything

Before we sold our house, I did a bit of land search using some of the public WV geospatial data. It seemed the majority of the land I was finding west of 79 was near gas wells. And some near Charleston seemed to be owned by a large company that would drill for gas, then sell the timber then sell the land cheap. The eastern part deeper in Appalachia seemed promising.

Our biggest worry was the long term. Unfortunately WV comes up near last in education and wealth. With the passing of what was essentially an exotic pet tax, our concern was that the WV government would continue to find ways like that as time went on to get more state revenue.

For the cable issue, yeah you're right it is hard to find cable near more remote areas. And I totally agree about ditching cable TV, we just use it for internet A friend of mine lives near Charleston and his uncle was able to get a cable drop in a fairly remote area, but he had to run a lot of coax himself to get close to a point where they would hook up. I'm hoping I could find a location that is close enough to a cable junction like that.

For work, we do plan on setting up a couple of possibilities for revenue with one of them being some software I'm going to work on this year. However, both of us rely on the internet to make money, so I'll need to figure out something for that. Maybe Google's balloon test will work out? :P

We do hope to grow and raise enough food mainly for ourselves and perhaps sell or trade any surplus (wishful thinking). That income would just be an extra treat.

Think I will take a peek at land in WV again further into the mountains since I haven't looked in a while.

Thanks!

[GunMonkeyIntl]

Regarding the financial part of your plan, if I may, you already sound a bit more realistic than some of the upstarts. We see new posters all the time who have a plan to quit their jobs, and replace their incomes with the produce of their land and their sweat. That appears to be an easy trap to fall into. At least you are being realistic about needing to keep your job(s).

But, it does sound like you might have a bit of that bug, with your comment that you'd like to be totally self-sufficient on food, and sell surplus for additional income. That is certainly possible, but is a tougher row to hoe than many seem to think.

I would recommend going into this with a financial plan that does not involve making any income off your land/efforts. That doesn't mean capitulating and accepting that you can't/won't make anything off it, but, in nearly all cases, the land and your efforts end up being a financial liability, at least at first.

Learning to garden is easy, but gardening is difficult. There is a huge affinity gap between caring for the couple tomato, pepper, and squash plants in your flower bed, and growing enough to enable you to turn your back on the grocery store altogether - especially with 6 kids to feed. If that is a goal that is really important to you, you can get there, but it is going to take a lot of work, and time to build up the infrastructure and skills.

I guess what I am saying, is that you should build your financial plan so that your conventional income will support the place, just like it would a new house you were looking at buying, all of your living expenses, including food, and leave enough room so you can buy all of the equipment and build all of the fences and out-buildings that you will find out you need as you progress, buy the fruit-trees- bees- livestock- whatever that you'll find that you need to round out your homestead, AND make all of the mistakes and false-starts there'll be as you get the whole machine going.

Income from the land and your efforts will come, if you keep at it, but not until later. Counting on them from the beginning is most likely just setting the whole thing up to crash around you.

Too, as you're thinking about ways to make money on the land, consider value-added products. Selling surplus tomatoes may make you some cash, but it will be difficult, and you are always going to find someone who does it better, cheaper, and more efficiently at any market you take them to. On the other-hand, if you have a great salsa recipe, that everyone compliments you on, consider canning your surplus into salsa and selling that instead. Or, if you, say, get into bees, you can sell the wax at the market for pennies, to people who want to make stuff out of it, or you can learn to make boutique candles, health-beauty items, or molded decorations, and sell them for dollars at the markets or gift shops.

When you sell a tomato, people aren't actually paying you for the tomato. They are paying for your hard, dirty, sweaty, risky efforts of cultivating it and driving it to the market. If you're going to be paid for your efforts, you might as well go ahead and capture the relatively easier, and much more lucrative, second-tier of revenue by making that tomato into something. Onyx's On-Fire Chili Mix will make you a lot more coin than a box of tomatoes that look just like the ones from the "Certified-Organic" farm at the booth next door.

[simi-steading]

Well I'll be... I knew nothing about that animal law... Guess me and some neighbors need to watch out..

I've got my Blue and Gold Macaw, that pretty much everyone knows I have since I do take him out in public... and then I've got my Potbelly/half wild pigs... I'd imagine they could call a potbelly a pet, and not livestock, and you can look at them and tell they are bred with wild pigs...

Then my neighbor has Koi fish in his pond, and it's a long running joke in this area you take a pole and go down to the creek his pond ends up draining to, and you can catch fish worth hundreds to sell.. Quite a few locals have seen his fish that got away in the creek...

I know several people in this area that have Peacocks...

I would have never gotten rid of my pets... I used to have quite a few snakes and lizards years ago, and was a pretty active member with the St. Louis Herp Society... Laws like these are passed by the uninformed. I usually don't pay much attention to them if they exist...

As far as all the oil wells, I love mine.. you can't beat the price of free gas... Sitting here at my kitchen table now.. 78 degrees... I couldn't afford to keep my house that warn when I was making a ton of money in IT in the legal industry...

As far as the free gas, and growing your own food, what you save in money, can be worth a lot more than what you earn...

One thing though... even with a garden, it can take you a few years to recoup your costs depending on what you invest.. hand tools, tiller, boards if it's raised, seeds, fruit trees, tractor, plow....

And meat ain't cheap to grow either... You may save a little money MAYBE by growing your own meat, but the real advantage is knowing what is in your meat..

[Onyx]

Good points on the expectations of being fully self-sufficient with the food. I think my wife may be a bit optimistic in that area

It will definitely be a challenge to get the income flowing enough next year so we can work for our own business.

Haha, I like the Onyx's On-Fire Chili Mix...that has a nice ring to it :P That is a great point to think about what you can make with your raw goods that seems more attractive to sell.

Another reason my wife parted with the animals was because we were going to be staying at her parents while in transition and they weren't too crazy about having the pets at their house.

The free gas is definitely a bonus! It could be I'm worrying a bit too much about the regulations if you are in an area where they won't likely be enforced

[simi-steading]

Plenty of places out here in WV, and PA, to where if you call the police, they ask why you didn't deal with it yourself... We have no building permit enforcement, so you don't have to file permits. The only thing you have to file a permit for is a septic system, or a water well. Even then, some times the septic just gets done and no one is the wiser..

DNR out here is thin handed, so could be why they don't enforce the exotics... but, no telling when they may change their mind..

[ET1 SS]

"At least 10 acres to have a bit of a privacy buffer."

I bought a 42 acre parcel of dense forest with 1/4 mile of river frontage for $35k. My SIL bought an adjoining parcel of 105 acres for the same price.

Homes here are generally 1/2 mile to 1 mile apart. You can find maps that show population-density that is a good key to how densely packed homes are. Townships with 1 to 10 people per square-mile, are pretty nice.



"Have a southern facing, low slope section."

Our place is flat, though trees were cleared to the South so we have full Southern exposure, which has allowed us to go with solar-power [and eventually solar-heat].



"Prefer a nice stream on or near the property. Could be used for hydropower."

We have river access, and two creeks flowing across our land.



"Couple of acres of wooded section for wood heating"

Also handy for wildlife habitat, forest-gardening, and livestock mast.



"Low regulation area since we will be using composting toilets, strawbale housing, livestock, solar power, multiple dwellings (future guest house), water collecting, and grey water treatment."

All of that is allowed here.

They do require that a Septic-System site plan must to done. The county does not require the plan to be filed with them. So you can hire an engineer to draw-up a plan and give it to you. On the other hand, there is no requirement for the septic-system to ever be installed. You just have to have the plans for one. We use composting.

Nobody cares what construction methods you use. That would require much higher taxes. A township would first raise our taxes and hire an inspector. They rarely get that far into the process before townspeople stop it.



"Low humidity. We prefer colder areas over hot."

Depending on how bad your Arthritis is it all depends. Some are okay with 50% others can not stand anything over 20%.



"Avoid swampy areas and flood zones."

My land is partly swamp. However I chose this parcel, other parcels are certainly different.



"Prefer other homesteading neighbors if possible."

Independent homesteading, do-it-yourself is bred into the locals here, commonly off-grid too, as a matter of the culture.



"Prefer access to cable internet. We could run our own wire on the property. If not, can probably make due with satellite connectivity."

There is no cable here, not in my township, and not in most towns here.



"Homsechool friendly"

We homeschooled. I was career military, we bounced around a lot. We have seen anti-homeschool states and pro-homeschool states. This is by far a pro state.



"Farmer's markets or other natural markets for trade. Could also trade with other neighbors who grow their own."

We have more FMs open every year. I sell produce in a FM. Just today I attended a meeting to organize a CSA fair this spring.



"Doesn't have to be close to a city for jobs, I'm going to attempt to work from home using software skills."

Good luck



Low land prices, low taxes, and low government presence, are all factors that allow a low Cost-Of-Living.

I have a military pension about equal to flipping burgers. I needed a place where I could afford to support a family on minimum-wage, as we built-up our farm. Here we fit in well.

Organics is a growing trend here, along with self-sufficient farming / low-impact logging.


When you look at places, pay close attention to the taxes. As you pay higher taxes, the town has a larger budget to hire more officials to rule over you. A good indication is taxes. We pay around $1.05/acre for our land. 150 acres costs us $157/year.

[Onyx]

Thanks ET1, great info!

With the septic issue, if the state requires plans for a septic system, can you get by with showing a composting system such as the Phoenix system?

Initially we are looking at setting up a yurt to live in while we work on our more permanent home. We would have to use either a bucket or something like the Ecolet composting toilet. I assume these would be frowned upon by the state health regulations? Do you just propose a system to keep them happy then use whatever you can until later?

I was hoping we could also make use of some sort of greywater treatment/recycling system in the future as well. Do you know how friendly greywater use is with the regulations?

Also, do you know of any issues with multiple dwellings on the property such as guest cabins?

Good point on the taxes, I hadn't looked at it from that angle. That the more income the local government has, the more people to regulate and enforce

[ET1 SS]

Originally Posted by Onyx

Thanks ET1, great info!

With the septic issue, if the state requires plans for a septic system, can you get by with showing a composting system such as the Phoenix system?

In my state, no.

This state requires a Septic System designed by a Septic System / Soil Science Engineer. You are not required to use a Septic System. You might not be required to ever build a Septic System. But you must have one designed.

... Initially we are looking at setting up a yurt to live in while we work on our more permanent home.

Some people live in yurts year-round here in Maine.

... We would have to use either a bucket or something like the Ecolet composting toilet. I assume these would be frowned upon by the state health regulations?

A wooden cabinet; with a toilet seat and lid on top, and a latching door on the side, large enough to allow a 5-gallon bucket to side inside. Works just fine, lasts for many years, and is cheap.

What health regs? Are you suggesting to settle in a place where the taxes are high enough to allow them to hire health inspectors?

Out of control taxes, allow for out-of-control inspectors.

... Do you just propose a system to keep them happy then use whatever you can until later?

Around here, a building permit is required to have a letter attached, from a Septic System / Soil Science Engineer. The letter must state that a Septic System design exists for that property.

... I was hoping we could also make use of some sort of greywater treatment/recycling system in the future as well. Do you know how friendly greywater use is with the regulations?

I have no idea of what treatment you would suggest for your greywater.

Greywater can flow anywhere. Many farms use their greywater to flow into their gardens.

There are no regulations here, governing greywater.

... Also, do you know of any issues with multiple dwellings on the property such as guest cabins?

Permanent dwellings [as defined largely by a permanent foundation] must meet set-back requirements. X feet back from each property line, and Y feet back from bodies of water.

If a parcel is large enough to allow a permanent dwelling, then it can have 50 of them.

'camps' are a different matter. Structures with no permanent foundation [like structures on: wheels, posts, concrete blocks, stones, or pontoon] are commonly used as seasonal camps. During hard times they may be lived in to over-winter, and therefore they may be setup for living in year-round. Camps do not generally require a building permit.

... Good point on the taxes, I hadn't looked at it from that angle. That the more income the local government has, the more people to regulate and enforce

In this state, so far 40 organized towns have gone so far as to burn their own town charter, as a method of lowering their property taxes. Every town employee draws a salary. All those salaries require municipal revenue, which all comes from local taxes.

My town burned their town charter in the '70s.

[Onyx]

Thanks for taking the time to answer ET1, that really helped us

[gila_dog]

Here's my 2 cents worth after having built 3 rural homesteads. No matter what part of the country you decide to settle in, make sure of these things:

1. Drinking water. On rural property you are going to have to have a well or a cistern. A well is very expensive, and there's no guarantee that the water will be drinkable. Do some research and find out about the wells in an area. The state should keep some records about the wells. Talk to a local driller. He will know a lot about the quality and quantity of water in the area. Avoid shared wells. On one property we bought in an area of questionable water availability we paid to have a well drilled BEFORE we bought the property. We could have lost all that money, but our research showed us that there were other good wells nearby and we really like the place and the neighborhood. If the well had not come in good we would have walked away from the deal, and not wound up stuck with property with no water.

2. Access to the property. Make sure you have clear legal access. If you have to cross other property make sure there is a legal easement to your property. A long private road that the residents have to maintain is a big PIA. A county road coming by the property is a big plus. Dead end roads are the best. No thru traffic, less noise and much less attractive to burglars.

3. Local crime. Talk to the cops. They should be willing to talk to you and tell you if there are known problems (meth labs, gangs, etc). Also you'll see how they behave with ordinary citizens. They should be respectful and helpful, not arrogant or surly.

[ET1 SS]

Here we can use 'sand-point' wells. I pipe 10 foot long with a special tip screwed onto it. Pounded in the ground, with a hand-pump attached.

[TnAndy]

Originally Posted by gila_dog

Here's my 2 cents worth after having built 3 rural homesteads. No matter what part of the country you decide to settle in, make sure of these things:

1. Drinking water. On rural property you are going to have to have a well or a cistern.

You left out springs.

MANY places have excellent spring water, my own is high enough that we gravity feed it to storage tanks, and on down to the house with no pump.

[gila_dog]

Originally Posted by TnAndy

You left out springs.

MANY places have excellent spring water, my own is high enough that we gravity feed it to storage tanks, and on down to the house with no pump.

You're absolutely right. A spring would be a wonderful water source.

[Onyx]

More good points Gila. We were considering a water cistern or a shallow well like ET1 mentioned due to the high drilling cost. I assume that if we don't find land with a nearby spring, then we rely on bottled water until the cistern would fill with enough water? Unless the shallow well would work quickly?

On the access point, I did notice while looking at land in NH there were several mentions of snowmobile/atv trails and even walking trails nearby or even crossing the land. My knee jerk response was to avoid land too close to trails. Has anyone had any experience being near such trails? Is it something you would avoid?

Thanks again!

[Almostafarmer]

Hi Onyx

Some solid advice above, and I just want to add my four slips of advice as always to new homesteaders...

Start small
Start slow
Start low tech
Know your limitations

I know you have seen what I have written about this elsewhere...but if others are interested, drop me a message

Gaz

[Vahomesteaders]

Being raised in Virginia on the wv boarder and living at times in wv, I love wv. But they are an anti homeschooling state with strict regulations. Virginia is a common wealth state. Meaning far less regulations. South western va has very affordable land. I also like the layout of the North. But the problem with the north is liberal run states. In general their regulations are anti self sufficient and eventually catch up to you. So living there is out of the question for us. PA is as far north as I could go. Beautiful state with very cheap land. Personally I like the set up of a common wealth. And my wife and I have no problem selling our goods at the farmers market. The Appalachia of virginia is unlike any place on earth in my opinion. And unlike wv your land comes with mineral rights. I guess it all boils down to preference. Another thing to consider is climate. A cooler climate means harder winter work that is harder on home, equipment, livestock and body. It also means a shorter growing season and even moving you out of some growing potential. So look into everything as resale on the type of home your planning on building is very low. So if you don't like it, you may be stuck for a while.

[gila_dog]

Re the shallow well.... I would be very careful of that. If people are using septic tanks and cess pools or there is a lot of agricultural runoff in the area, that first water you hit can be unhealthy. And living off bottled or truck-delivered water will get real old, real fast.
I've never had a cistern but I know of people who do. I can see how keeping the water clean as it is gathered and put into the cistern could be a challenge. A clean, reliable spring could be the best choice. I think I would make that a high priority if I were looking at land back in your part of country. And you mentioned ID or MT. All the Rocky Mtn states go thru periods of severe drought at times. A spring that runs fine some years may dry up other years. And drilling several hundred feet to find reliable water is not uncommon.

Where I live water is really scarce, so it's a big deal to me. Maybe back east there is so much water that it's a minor issue. But there are so many people and a lot of agriculture and mining going on, so finding clean, healthy water may still be a challenge.

I will just leave it at this: do not overlook or underestimate the importance of good drinking water at your new homestead.