The Great Debate

[JohnnyRebel]

Ok people, here we go the great debate and I already know my side but what is yours?

Organic Vegetables or GMO Vegetables and why?

Let's be adults and keep it clean. Please also explain with some type of intellectual argument.

Thanks

[FarmTechnician]

I'm part of the anti-GMO crowd. When crops contain more Glyphosate than Vitamin A... And when Glyphosate is linked to higher bee mortality rates. I find it very, very hard to believe them when they tell me that the detection of Glyphosate in breast milk and urine of humans is of no concern. Remember, these guys sold us artificial sweeteners under the idea that it's "healthy"..... Both my logical mind and my gut instincts say stay away from GMO.

[sammyd]

It's really not a great debate. There are very few gmo veggies available.
Organic is nice but I prefer to be able to have the option to use a touch of Sevin or some fertilizer if I need it.

[1shotwade]

I have to agree with FT. France was one of the first countries to experience CCD.They found the cause to be chemicals in the modifies seed etc and the government banned them. If I remember right it took six years for the seed to become free of these substances and their bees have recovered 100%. They have no more CCD.
Monsanto and Bayer do not have the political clout in France as they do here.


Wade

[Deeplines]

I'm going neither.

Planting Heirloom and using chemicals if I need to. Going what I call organic is just to much trouble and if the bugs eats you out guess you will be at the store buying your veggies anyways.

[sammyd]

Nobody has ccd anymore regardless of what country it is. Over winter bee mortality is about what it always has been.

[7thswan]

No gmo and no chemicals. I use good ol compost. Healthy plants don't seem to need much to fight against bugs. The few that come arround, I hand pick and squish.Last year was the first for slugs for me-in raised beds-on plants suspetable. So next year I'll be prepared-where I plant and eggshells.

[northergardener]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't potatoes and corn the only vegetables that are available as genetically modified?

I could have a completely GMO free garden that is not organic. Typically, organic means no use of synthetic pesticides. So my seed source is GMO free, but if I use Sevin to kill insects, then my garden would not be organic.

Let's say I buy GMO potatoes that have been genetically modified to contain bt which kills Colorado potato beetles. Since I have GMO potatoes, I do not need to use any pesticides to kill Colorado potato beetles, does that mean I have grown my potatoes organically?

So I think there are really multiple questions here.
GMO vs non-GMO vegetables?
Organically vs non-organically grown vegetables?
and Heirloom vs hybrid seeds is yet another question completely.

[MO_cows]

There aren't very many GMO vegetables, and the ones that have been developed are not readily available to the public. So the basis for the discussion is invalid.

[GunMonkeyIntl]

Not much intellecual debate to be had there, being, as others pointed out, that GMO/non-GMO and organic/non-organic are two entirely separate topics. I'm guessing that the extent of the OP's research on the subject has been an article or two in Mother Earth News.

Side topic; I wish I could buy GMO seed potatoes. I hate those darned beetles so much that I've started a campaign to force Colorado out of the Union. I've even got a 49-star flag designed, and everything. Let's have an intellectual debate about that.

[farmerDale]

Well, if I could actually find gm veggie seed, I may or may not use it, depending on the trait involved. If it is useless, why use it? The point is, even if I tried, I do not think I could find me any gm seed in the first place, so line me up with those who think this is kind of a strange debate.

What is debatable, is what some of the posters are saying about gm in general. About honeybees, and glyphosate.... It is obvious who has done their research, and who has not. I mean, if glyphosate was causing bee mortality, surely Saskatchewan's bee industry would be in a shambles, rather than being the highest yielding hives in the world, what with the gm canola that the bees feast upon.

I will leave it at that.

If a gm veggie came out that gave some kind of advantage, I may try it. Or I may not. This is a garden for crying out loud, it is a tiny patch of land, where it is easy enough to rectify weeds, fertility issues, insect troubles, or disease issues.

I simply can not think of a trait where it would have enough of an affect on a little garden plot, to actually put it to good use.

IMO, the debate was over before it even started, unless the OP is working on some modifications in his backyard lab, and is researching his potential market for seeds...

[haypoint]

This is a hot topic. I think everyone is free to have an opinion either way. But, if you base your opinion on something that is flat out untrue, I feel compelled to explain the truth. If you wanted only organic because it is chemical-free, I'd want to explain that a variety of chemicals are allowed in organic gardening. If you wanted to avoid GMO corn because it has glyphosate in it, I'd want to launch into an explanation to help you understand how and why there isn't any glyphosate in GMO corn.

GMO crops generally use less chemicals than conventional crops and are not in any way connected to honey bee die-off.
Weed control of 40 years ago, depended on far more toxic chemicals and soil robbing cultivation. GMO crops and glyphosate greatly reduces chemical use and insures better weed control. It is possible, that with better weed control, a wide variety of flowering weeds are not available to bees as they once were. But most commercial bee operations are placing hives into areas that have flowering crops. Milkweed plants are a main source of food for the Monarch butterfly. A reduction of that weed has reduced the Monarch population. But that isn't a GMO or anti-GMO concern. If you want more Mon arch butterflies, turn your yard/field/pasture into a Milkweed plantation.

So far, corn, sugar beets and a few summer squash.
If you base your stand on the French saying honey bees die from chemicals in seeds, I'm interested in knowing more. What chemicals took six years to get out? Where is your source of information? In an attempt at keeping this civil and informative, please omit the rat tumor French study. That has been dismissed by nearly everyone in the scientific community as a bunch of crap.

If you use GMO plants in your garden, that, in itself, makes your garden non-organic. Even if you don't use chemical fertilizers or insecticides. I find it interesting that I can dump piles of Bt on my organic cabbage and it is still organic. Bt is allowed to be used on organic gardens, since Bt is found in nature. Bt is in plants, animals, soil, us. But if I plant a crop that has Bt inserted into the plant's DNA, making it GMO, my garden is no longer organic.

Perhaps to have a discussion about GMO, we need a base level of understanding of GMO. Not all GMO crops are resistant to glyphosate (Roundup). Not al GMO crops contain Bt. We all need to understand how long glyphosate persists in the soil. We need to understand if glyphosate translocates into the plant and how long.

I want to feed my family fruits and vegetables that are free of harmful chemicals. I want my crops to be free of damaging insects. I want to do all I can to preserve and improve my soil. I want to be able to grow more fruits and vegetables by reducing insect damage and weed competition. I want to market sweet corn that doesn't have insect larva living among the kernels.

[farmerDale]

Originally Posted by GunMonkeyIntl

Not much intellecual debate to be had there, being, as others pointed out, that GMO/non-GMO and organic/non-organic are two entirely separate topics. I'm guessing that the extent of the OP's research on the subject has been an article or two in Mother Earth News.

Side topic; I wish I could buy GMO seed potatoes. I hate those darned beetles so much that I've started a campaign to force Colorado out of the Union. I've even got a 49-star flag designed, and everything. Let's have an intellectual debate about that.

Well, be kind to Colorado: We have never included it in our country, yet they export their dang beetles here still!

For that reason, I think you should keep her in the union.

[farmerDale]

Cranbrook, where on earth were you prior to October? That right there was a good post based on facts. Thanks for taking the time to aid in this debate.

[badlander]

Originally Posted by MO_cows

There aren't very many GMO vegetables, and the ones that have been developed are not readily available to the public. So the basis for the discussion is invalid.

Well, yes, but....consider this. Monsanto has just developed a GMO sweet corn seed and I just read about GMO tomatoe research on another site called GMO Compass. While the varieties are not currently available in the US. Realistically speaking though, if history holds true, it's just a matter of time before they are readily available here.

Also, consider the fact that many homesteaders raise their own crops for livestock feed. Commercial farmers are feeding the nation and the world with their products and according to this site: http://http://theemergencyfoodsupply...ed-by-monsanto a surprisingly high percentage of our corn and soy beans are already GMO.

So anything you use in your home, from corn syrup to corn flakes, any seed that is grown as feed seed for any of your meat production is in fact GMO in it's origin. Eat the meat? You are eating GMO. Eat anything that is from corn or soy bean production and the same thing is happening.

The big picture is that GMO is already present in our grain crops so it's just a matter of time before the process appears in our veggie population. The key desire for farmers who are producing food crops that are non grain is to get their plants to produce the largest amount of fruit/vegetables possible to feed a growing population. They want insect and disease resistance built into the seed they plant. They also want the highest production of produce possible.

Personally I would like to avoid using them as much as possible given the lack of any real information about long term effects from using GMO veggies if and when they surface here (maybe they already have and we don't know it).

Considering that we and our livestock are already consuming GMO corn and soybeans I think we are pretty much locked into that reality whether we like it or not.

[farmerDale]

Originally Posted by badlander

Well, yes, but....consider this. Monsanto has just developed a GMO sweet corn seed and I just read about GMO tomatoe research on another site called GMO Compass. While the varieties are not currently available in the US. Realistically speaking though, if history holds true, it's just a matter of time before they are readily available here.

Also, consider the fact that many homesteaders raise their own crops for livestock feed. Commercial farmers are feeding the nation and the world with their products and according to this site: http://http://theemergencyfoodsupply...ed-by-monsanto a surprisingly high percentage of our corn and soy beans are already GMO.

So anything you use in your home, from corn syrup to corn flakes, any seed that is grown as feed seed for any of your meat production is in fact GMO in it's origin. Eat the meat? You are eating GMO. Eat anything that is from corn or soy bean production and the same thing is happening.

The big picture is that GMO is already present in our grain crops so it's just a matter of time before the process appears in our veggie population. The key desire for farmers who are producing food crops that are non grain is to get their plants to produce the largest amount of fruit/vegetables possible to feed a growing population. They want insect and disease resistance built into the seed they plant. They also want the highest production of produce possible.

Personally I would like to avoid using them as much as possible given the lack of any real information about long term effects from using GMO veggies if and when they surface here (maybe they already have and we don't know it).

Considering that we and our livestock are already consuming GMO corn and soybeans I think we are pretty much locked into that reality whether we like it or not.

I don't think it is a matter of time if consumers and users do not want it. Monsanto worked on gm wheat for years. We farmers do not need, or want gm wheat, and refuse to touch it with a ten thousand foot pole.

Just because they are working on it, IMO does not mean it is going to come to fruition. For every gm crop released, MANY more have been worked on and shelved, or outright failed. A lot of money goes into this field, but if we refuse to buy the stuff in the first place, it will go no where.

Farmers are one thing. Gardeners are another. If farmers refuse gm wheat, surely gardeners will resist even more strongly?

[Callieslamb]

Do you gardeners really have that much touble with pests in your gardens? Enough to lose a crop? How many crops and how many years in a row? I get potato beetles every few years. If I can catch them early enough, I handpick them. If not, I'll use a little 7 dust. other than that- I've never had to chemically battle pests in my garden. I have gardened in several different states with different soils. I don't see the need for a crop that will keep itself de-bugged. Now weeds are entirely different. I lose the war on weeds every couple of years - but I still grow enough to feed my family most of the year. I don't get the need for GMOs of any kind.

[1shotwade]

Well,per usual I can't find the documentation I'm looking for that supports the GMO link to CCD. What I had originally read was that the chemicals used to treat the seed would stay in the plant for 5-6 generations after the original treatment.(the DNA structure of the plant had become genetically modified to carry the chemical into the next 5-6 generations of that plant)The French study I was looking for stated that the pollen produced by these later generations of plants were being carried back to the hive and feed to the hatching bees to their demise!
Wikipedia does evidence this but in a slightly different manner.stating the residual chemical is contained in the ground and effects the next 5-6 years of crops grown in that ground.

It may not be GMO but it is genetically modified.

Wade


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacl...ffects_on_bees




http://www.thelohasian.com/2008/06/b...-business.html

http://www.enn.com/agriculture/commentary/24292

http://www.beecharmers.org/

[Oggie]

I mainly eat vegetables that are not modified.

My wife, on the other hand, often uses ranch-style dressing.

[sammyd]

none of those links contain any sort of hard evidence. It is all conjecture.
http://www.science20.com/jon_entine/...es-149799/feed
Has some interesting stuff about neonics, bees, and one researcher who changed his experiment midstream when it started to show that neonics may actually help bees.

and some stuff on a site against the ban in Canada that includes some good links
http://ontag.farms.com/m/blogpost?id...ogPost%3A59565