Trouble with neighbor

Nimrod · #1 11/21/14, 01:41 PM

I bought 34 acres of land a couple of years ago. It would have been a 40 except the borders are skewed. The 40s to the N, NE, E, and SE are all owned by individual private owners. The other bordering 40s are owned by the county. The county recently logged most of the 40 south of mine so it's fairly open.

I let some folks hunt deer there this fall. One of them put up a portable blind alongside my southern border, about in the middle. The person who owns the 40 east of mine went past a no trespassing sign and drove in an hour after legal shooting time and set up stands on the east and west sides of the county owned 40 south of mine. This was in full view of the guy who had set up on my land and they could see him too. They were all hunting the same logged over area. My hunter moved.

Now it gets interesting. There was an old logging road that came into his property from the south and went through his property and out the north. This is how he accessed his property. The logging road hits a public road on the north and south ends and goes through other property before it connects at either end. The property used to be owned by Potlatch and was open to the public provided that they didn't lease it.

Potlatch has sold all of it's land to private owners. The new owner to the south put up gates and blocked the road on the south end. The neighbor to the north blocked his end with a no trespassing sign. The county is OK with this because the logging road is not any kind of official road. Other old logging roads in the neighborhood have been blocked off by the landowners as well.

The person who owns the 40 north of mine had a survey done. The survey shows that his SE corner is about 80 yards east of where the county thought it was. This corner is also my NE corner and the bad neighbor's NW corner. This moves the logging road at my north boundary completely onto my property. It also means that the neighbor to the north owns the whole logging road as it goes through his property.

The bad neighbor could not come up the logging road from the south on opening day because the new landowner there had blocked it off with a gate. He came around to the north end of the logging road and came in past a no trespassing sign to get to his property. In so doing he drove through my northern neighbor's land and through mine. This extra distance only accounts for about 15 minutes extra time to get on stand, not over an hour that it took him.

My neighbor to the north figured out that someone had ignored the no trespassing sign and driven across his land on the logging road so he got the tractor and blocked the end of the road with a few big logs. When the bad neighbor tried to get out he had a confrontation with the neighbor to the north. He tried to claim he had been doing it for 17 years like that gave him some right. He tried to claim that he had an easement but the neighbor to the north always owned the north end of the road and there was no easement on the title when he bought it last year. He tried to claim that he had paid a hugh amount for his land like that gave him some right.

In the end, my neighbor to the north gave the bad neighbor permission to use the logging road provided that the bad neighbor let him know when he did. The bad neighbor wouldn't give his phone number. My neighbor to the north gave permission without knowing the bad hunting etiquette practiced by the bad neighbor to the east. I think his initial reaction was to let the guy have access to the land he owned.

I sent a letter to the bad neighbor last week that said he may have some access issues and to please give me a call. He hasn't. He should have had the letter waiting in his mailbox when he got home Monday after the end of the deer season. I also wrote him a letter a few years ago to introduce myself and asked him to call and didn't get any response.

So, after that long winded explanation, what should I do?

According to the survey, I can block him from getting to his land from the north on the logging road. My inclination is to hit him up the side of the head with a 2X4 (figuratively) to get him talking and then give him permission to access his land provided he practices better hunter ethics. I know the owner of the 40 north of mine and have met the owner of the 40 that blocked the south end of the logging road. I don't think either one would give permission to use the logging road if the guy is a slob hunter.

I realize that the bad neighbor can legally force access to his land but this would cost him serious money in lawyers, court costs, and paying whichever land owner whose land his access crosses.

I think at the least the neighbor to the north and I should require him to lease our part of the old logging road at the rate of a dollar a year for access. This would prevent him from claiming he can take the road by adverse possession and gives us the ability to cut him off if we want to.

whistler · #2 11/21/14, 01:50 PM

My advice, get a lawyer to discuss this with.

In the hierarchy of actions (on any topic) the first step is always to determine the legal issues and the legality of any specific course of action. Once the legal issues are known and considered then you can begin to evaluate the interpersonal / neighborly aspects.

Whistler

simi-steading · #3 11/21/14, 01:51 PM

My land. NO TRESPASSING. NO ACCESS... end of story...

You wanna be a jerk, I can be one too....

That's the way I'd handle it...

rambler · #4 11/21/14, 01:57 PM

Did he used to drive on your land to get to his property?

If no, then put up your own logs and stay out of it, you aren't involved, let those others work it out with him.

In some cases in some states, if a person uses a road or path for a number of years that becomes an easement whether its written down or not, if someone wants to push it far enough. So, after 17 years, he might have grounds to stand on. As well if this was at a time a cart way open to the public it might be easier for a pation to the county to open it up again. I would be careful on this.

Typically, if someone hunts irresponsibly, that is how they are, and a letter won't turn that around. Nor a simple chat. Its just a built in trait they have forever.

I would have blocked my road when I took possession so it was done and settled then. Let the neighbors fight their own battles. I think I'm missing something in your explanation, so my generic thoughts are just that, see how this thead goes.

Paul

Harry Chickpea · #5 11/21/14, 01:59 PM

You need to talk with a surveyor and a lawyer before doing anything. Laws vary by state, but if his property is landlocked except for the logging road, that road may be a default easement. Most states have laws against the sale of landlocked property and will grant an owner of same some sort of easement to correct it.

Just at a glance-over of what you describe, any action you take could end up costing you more $$$ than you anticipate and end up with an outcome you might not like.

It is pretty obvious that you didn't have your own survey done when you purchased. I'm guessing you didn't sport for title insurance either. Lessons learned.

simi-steading · #6 11/21/14, 02:00 PM

The guy may have driven on it for 17 years, but a new person bought the land, and the easement wasn't included... So that means since the guy didn't have the easement legally described after using it for so long, he's outta luck..

I agree though.. it does sound like time to get an attorney to deal with it correctly.

Danaus29 · #7 11/21/14, 02:01 PM

Lawyer up and check into the possibility of closing off the logging road. If it's legal to do so, then close the road.

Not like it matters but does bad neighbor have other access to his property? If so then he can make his own road through his own property.

You might want to invest in a survey just to make sure your lines aren't messed up.

Nimrod · #8 11/21/14, 02:42 PM

No, I didn't buy title insurance or have a survey made. Potlatch owned the land since before there was dirt so there is no cloud on the title. A survey was not a big issue because if the boundaries are a bit different from what I was told, and what the county thinks, it doesn't result in a gain or loss of high ground.

The neighbor to the north had a survey done this summer and that's when we found out his south corners, and my north corners, are different than we thought. The logging road is completely on his land, not just the north end and is on my land in my NE corner. I need to have a survey done of my south corners before I select a building site.

My main objective is to get the neighbor on the east to be an ethical hunter and a good neighbor. He should get together with whoever is hunting my land and coordinate so they are all safe. I really don't want to bar him from his land but it is leverage.

Danaus29 · #9 11/21/14, 02:45 PM

You can't make someone an ethical hunter or good neighbor. Sadly not even his parents could have done that if he was determined to be a jerk from the beginning.

Harry Chickpea · #10 11/21/14, 03:00 PM

The neighbor to the north would be the one to take action. You would be poking a hornet's nest if you went it on your own.

Title insurance isn't just for insuring chain of ownership. You just found out that there is a potential cloud on your title with a possible undisclosed easement. (Easements via adverse possession may exist without being listed in documents) Another potential might be if hazardous waste from operations was deposited on your land.

A way to think of title insurance is as a legal fence to keep out wandering bull.

Jennifer L. · #11 11/21/14, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimrod

My main objective is to get the neighbor on the east to be an ethical hunter and a good neighbor. He should get together with whoever is hunting my land and coordinate so they are all safe. I really don't want to bar him from his land but it is leverage.

That's not going to happen. Do what you can to protect yourself and forget trying to get him to change. Maybe your friend who hunts your place just needs to find another hunting ground.

crazyfarm · #12 11/21/14, 03:55 PM

I think he'd have to go to the commissioners and the court over this road dispute and that all of you would have to hire attorneys. I should know, we currently have no less than 5 road disuptes going on. They can be expensive. So how much of a fuss are you willing to pay for?

bigjon · #13 11/21/14, 05:10 PM

my land-I will tell u to get and stay out.lawyer up,give this guy an inch?????nope.

edcopp · #14 11/21/14, 05:32 PM

If one is too cheap to pay for a survey, the usually end up with whatever is left.

The answer is a legal survey, properly marked. Gates where the property lines cross the road, and notice of "NO TRESPASSING". then you have a position in the matter, a leg to stand on, so to speak.

Be sure the survey is properly recorded at the county court house, so you can prove that it does exist.

This sort of thing is ongoing in the county where I live. He said, she said, and besides so and so is his uncle; usually won't get it.

Not too long ago in my county, a property owner attempting to restrict access to his property, ended up in jail. Gunfore was involved, and somebody did have to buy a new tire for a motorcycle.

Let go of some of your cash. Get a survey, and enforce your boundary.

**highlands** · #15 11/21/14, 05:39 PM

Wow. That was complicated. This explains why 40 acres and a mule are not enough to keep rats from killing each other in a box. I would move to a much larger property. Maybe 25x larger. Wait, that's what I did when I didn't like a neighbor. It was much better than a life of pain or killing them.

Wolf mom · #16 11/21/14, 05:53 PM

I've had right of way across another's land ended up with attorneys and the title company got sued. I ended up selling my access rights for a pretty penny.

If the logging road is across your land, and he ultimately gains legal access, I'd have it moved as close to your boundary as possible so it doesn't cut your land up. An a matter of fact, I'd move the road there anyway. If he ends up with legal access, you can't lock him out.

Yup, I'd hire a real estate attorney - after I get all the leg work done so the atty doesn't charge you for it. ie: plat map, copy of the neighbors survey if possible. Only then would I write a registered, return receipt letter to your bad neighbor.

farmrbrown · #17 11/21/14, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimrod

My main objective is to get the neighbor on the east to be an ethical hunter and a good neighbor. He should get together with whoever is hunting my land and coordinate so they are all safe. I really don't want to bar him from his land but it is leverage.

That was my question, "what do you want?"
The answer is below.
He doesn't want to change and doesn't want to talk about, he's made that abundantly clear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danaus29

You can't make someone an ethical hunter or good neighbor. Sadly not even his parents could have done that if he was determined to be a jerk from the beginning.

So the only question left is, "What is it worth to you?"
Is he causing damage, if so, what's it worth?
If you cut off his access, and he seeks revenge, is it worth it to you?

I can't answer those questions, only you and your neighbors can.

geo in mi · #18 11/22/14, 07:08 AM

You have too many neighbors.

geo

am1too · #19 11/22/14, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimrod

I bought 34 acres of land a couple of years ago. It would have been a 40 except the borders are skewed. The 40s to the N, NE, E, and SE are all owned by individual private owners. The other bordering 40s are owned by the county. The county recently logged most of the 40 south of mine so it's fairly open.

I let some folks hunt deer there this fall. One of them put up a portable blind alongside my southern border, about in the middle. The person who owns the 40 east of mine went past a no trespassing sign and drove in an hour after legal shooting time and set up stands on the east and west sides of the county owned 40 south of mine. This was in full view of the guy who had set up on my land and they could see him too. They were all hunting the same logged over area. My hunter moved.

Now it gets interesting. There was an old logging road that came into his property from the south and went through his property and out the north. This is how he accessed his property. The logging road hits a public road on the north and south ends and goes through other property before it connects at either end. The property used to be owned by Potlatch and was open to the public provided that they didn't lease it.

Potlatch has sold all of it's land to private owners. The new owner to the south put up gates and blocked the road on the south end. The neighbor to the north blocked his end with a no trespassing sign. The county is OK with this because the logging road is not any kind of official road. Other old logging roads in the neighborhood have been blocked off by the landowners as well.

The person who owns the 40 north of mine had a survey done. The survey shows that his SE corner is about 80 yards east of where the county thought it was. This corner is also my NE corner and the bad neighbor's NW corner. This moves the logging road at my north boundary completely onto my property. It also means that the neighbor to the north owns the whole logging road as it goes through his property.

The bad neighbor could not come up the logging road from the south on opening day because the new landowner there had blocked it off with a gate. He came around to the north end of the logging road and came in past a no trespassing sign to get to his property. In so doing he drove through my northern neighbor's land and through mine. This extra distance only accounts for about 15 minutes extra time to get on stand, not over an hour that it took him.

My neighbor to the north figured out that someone had ignored the no trespassing sign and driven across his land on the logging road so he got the tractor and blocked the end of the road with a few big logs. When the bad neighbor tried to get out he had a confrontation with the neighbor to the north. He tried to claim he had been doing it for 17 years like that gave him some right. He tried to claim that he had an easement but the neighbor to the north always owned the north end of the road and there was no easement on the title when he bought it last year. He tried to claim that he had paid a hugh amount for his land like that gave him some right.

In the end, my neighbor to the north gave the bad neighbor permission to use the logging road provided that the bad neighbor let him know when he did. The bad neighbor wouldn't give his phone number. My neighbor to the north gave permission without knowing the bad hunting etiquette practiced by the bad neighbor to the east. I think his initial reaction was to let the guy have access to the land he owned.

I sent a letter to the bad neighbor last week that said he may have some access issues and to please give me a call. He hasn't. He should have had the letter waiting in his mailbox when he got home Monday after the end of the deer season. I also wrote him a letter a few years ago to introduce myself and asked him to call and didn't get any response.

So, after that long winded explanation, what should I do?

According to the survey, I can block him from getting to his land from the north on the logging road. My inclination is to hit him up the side of the head with a 2X4 (figuratively) to get him talking and then give him permission to access his land provided he practices better hunter ethics. I know the owner of the 40 north of mine and have met the owner of the 40 that blocked the south end of the logging road. I don't think either one would give permission to use the logging road if the guy is a slob hunter.

I realize that the bad neighbor can legally force access to his land but this would cost him serious money in lawyers, court costs, and paying whichever land owner whose land his access crosses.

I think at the least the neighbor to the north and I should require him to lease our part of the old logging road at the rate of a dollar a year for access. This would prevent him from claiming he can take the road by adverse possession and gives us the ability to cut him off if we want to.

If there is no easement on record, tell 'em no. If you want to lease right of use I would get more and require it be maintained and have a locked gate.

am1too · #20 11/22/14, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danaus29

Lawyer up and check into the possibility of closing off the logging road. If it's legal to do so, then close the road.

Not like it matters but does bad neighbor have other access to his property? If so then he can make his own road through his own property.

You might want to invest in a survey just to make sure your lines aren't messed up.

If an easement does not appear on the other property owners title he does not have an easement on your property.