Renovating Old Houses

[V-NH]

Does anyone have experience with old houses? My wife and I currently homestead on one acre with a really nice, new log home on it. We're at a point where we would like more land, so we have started to look around. Viewed a property today with 35 acres, but the house is really throwing us off. It is much bigger than the house we currently own, but it was built in the 1830s and it needs a ton of cosmetic work. When I say a ton, I mean that we would probably want to replace the plaster on every wall and redo all of the floors. It is a sizable place, over 2000 sq ft with something like 11 or 12 rooms. Based on the condition of the roof, it would need to be replaced in the next couple of years and all of the windows are extremely old single pane windows so chances are we would replace all of them too.

My wife feels that it is just too big of a project. I'm trying to get some feedback from people who have done something similar before I agree or disagree with her. The questionable piece for me is that our current home is valued at $160,000 for 1500 sq ft and 1 acre. The property we're looking at is 35 acres and a 2000 sq ft+ house for only $180,000. I'm trying to convince myself that it is a good idea.

Extraneous information: Our first child is due in two months.

[evan]

How skilled are you at remodeling? Are you planning on hiring it done? Would you be able to swing living in your current house while working on the other one? For a house that size it wouldn't be unreasonable at all to stick another 100k into it.

[AngieM2]

You may want to check out the Construction Forum
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/hom...-construction/ in addition to this forum.

I love the older houses, so I'll be watching this thread, just to see what help you get.

[V-NH]

I've done plaster and laid down hardwood floors before, but never professionally and never on the scale that would be required to complete this project. I would do all of the work myself with the exception of the roof. I don't have any desire to climb up onto the roof of an 1830s farmhouse.

Thanks Angie, I'll look through that subforum too.

[Callieslamb]

How long since it's been lived in? Has it already been upgraded to electricity and water pipes? Heating/cooling? What kind of insulation does it have?

If you can talk the wife into pursuing ( and I don't recommend that you proceed with out her)...you could get an inspector or contractor in to see how much work it really needs and that what was already done was done well. Then you start to get an idea of the price. Unless it's been just cosmetic projects, we've never really come out ahead on remodels. But, if you like the house and property and like the idea of having a home that has been standing that long, maybe it's okay to spend more than it will be worth to make it comfortable for you and your family.

Older homes don't have the same sizings that modern houses do- replacement windows that fit might be harder to find, as might doors and other items. Do your research and be sure.

[V-NH]

It's currently lived in. It is just dirty and has lots of cracked plaster and old yellowed peeling wallpaper. The person who owns it now has actually lived there for 50 years. Their spouse died a few years back and they've basically just stopped maintaining it since then. We would have to live there throughout the renovation because we wouldn't be able to maintain two homes. I don't think it would be too hard to convince my wife to get on board, but I am not entirely on board myself just yet.

The piping and electricity was done 45 years ago according to the disclosure. The heating system is 25 years old and is oil forced hot water. There's also a very large wood burning stove on the first floor. Insulation is listed as unknown and when I talked with the current owner he didn't really seem to have any idea.

[Forcast]

how hard would it be to sell your house? heating with oil is high, sounds like a lot to update. do you have kids, what about lead paint that costs a ton to deal with, same with lead pipes.

[Brighton]

Originally Posted by Forcast

how hard would it be to sell your house? heating with oil is high, sounds like a lot to update. do you have kids, what about lead paint that costs a ton to deal with, same with lead pipes.

This, can you even sell your home for a decent price to do this project?

[Molly Mckee]

We have redone 3 old farmhouses, the newest built in 1890. It will be much more work and take twice as much money as any estimates you get. It will also take a lot longer than you think. It will be hard for a new mother to have much time to work on the house and it will be hard to live in a house that needs to be totally renovated, especially with a baby. I've done it. I would only do it again if it was an old family house or an absolutely beautiful house that I could not live without trying. Even then I would want one good bathroom, a working, functional kitchen and a decent bedroom before I moved in.

If you have to talk yourself into it, or your wife into it, it's probably not a good idea. If you haven't seen a movie call The Money Pit (I think) watch it--it's not too far off.

One big problem with a house that old is nothing is plumb. No corners are square. There may be layers and layers of wall paper, maybe mixed with paint. Everything is a big project. If you go to blow in insulation, you may well find that there are brick fire stops in the walls, so it is much more work. It needs a roof, a heating system, not air conditioned, no duct work, and all kinds of things that are not apparent. You will have to replace all the windows to have any kind of energy efficiency. Oh and that peeling and chipped paint is probably lead based. There may be asbestos insulating the heating system. Is the foundation good? The possible problems go on and on. Check the wiring and plumbing. They are older and may not be up to code. Find out at what point you have to bring them up to code, and what type they are. They may need updating, especially the electric wiring.

If you want to do it and you both agree, it may be worth it, but it will be a huge project. We built a new house when we moved here, mostly ourselves. It was much easier than restoring the old houses. Good luck, let us know what you decide.

[Spamela]

It is also my dream to redo an old farm house so I don't want to deter you, but I also wanted to mention the lead paint issue.

With young children in the house, all the lead paint should really be removed. That means tearing out all the plaster and lath, and replacing all the windows and maybe even the floors. Not just painting over them. With work going on in the house there is going to be a lot of dust, no matter what you do. Dust is one of the easiest ways to ingest lead.

I think there are ways to try to seal in the lead paint, like wallpaper or paneling. Paint will not do the job, so the windows would definitley need to be replaced. Everytime a window or door with lead paint is opened or shut it releases lead dust.

And, if you do buy the house and try to get this done before the baby gets here, pregnant women should not be around lead dust either because lead in her blood will tranfer to the baby.

I just know I wouldn't have my baby around that, so my dream is going to have to wait for quite a few years. I know several people that I strongly believe had lead poisoning when they were young. Not trying to be mean but sometimes you can just tell. It's kinda sad.

Again I don't want to be a debbie downer I just wanted you to be aware.

[mmoetc]

I'll second Molly McKee. No matter how much due diligence you do you won't really know the extent of what needs to be done until you start really digging into what's behind those almost 200 year old walls. It's hard to tell from the outside if what was done 40 years ago was adequate for today or even for then. Look at the functionality of those 11-12 rooms. Do their sizes and layout work for your current and future needs? Moving walls and redesigning floor space isn't always so straight forward. Budgets for redoing an older home are always just starting points. Now, if you really like the property, you think the price is fair, and the location works for you you might want to sit down and really run the numbers as to how much it will take to make this your dream home. Then look at what a tear down of the old home( salvaging and selling as much of that antique material as you can) and building your actual dream home would be. You might find out that the costs come in quite close to each other and then the choice is yours.

[geo in mi]

In a word: NO. I live in a house like you are talking about, and it has been remodelled over and again by various owners, including me. To do it right, you should gut the house entirely to start, then proceed with wiring, plumbing, insulating, windows, kitchen and bathroom fixtures, furnace, etc,etc--finally ending up with a finished home you can be proud of. What you see now is only the surface, you won't know until you remove all the old stuff--ending up with basically the studs, roof sheathing, wall siding, and sub floors. Even then, you may encounter termites, lead paint, asbestos, rotted sills, fire damage, mold, racoon poop, rags and paper "insulation", lamp cord wiring..... should I say more? Only if you do this yourself, only if the house has lots of "character" and visual appeal, only if you have the time, money, and energy to do it yourself--would I recommend you go for it. Whenever you contract the jobs, each contractor will have to go by codes, permits, lead paint and asbestos abatement---and the costs may be way beyond your own reasonable budget. I was a team leader/project supervisor on a Habitat for Humanity rehab house, and we encountered nearly everything I have mentioned, and except for using volunteers, private grant money, jail crews, and generous contractors, it wouldn't have been worth it. And we had to abide by all codes and permits, and inspections......(I wouldn't do otherwise)

In my own home, most of my work has been surface remodelling and some revision--this winter I removed five layers of wallpaper in the living room and smoothed out the old plaster with about fifteen gallons of drywall compound, then 'textured' it with stiff brush over a coat of sloppy, diluted, wallboard compound, so the lumps and humps would sort of give it that look you'd expect in a 150 year old living room. (at least it's clean and fresh now...). In the process, what did I find, but two windows that had been fiberboarded over--with two lamp cord wireups (imbedded in the fiberboard) to a couple of wall sconces! And I've never been able to get all the drafts sealed by doing it piecemeal.... My project list is never ending.

And, I was overjoyed then they finally put natural gas lines along the road--no more oil furnace!

Would I do all this with a baby just beginning to crawl??? H_ _ _ NO!

In short, unless it has tons of character, and unless you can talk Norm Abrams (and all his advertisor money) to do it as a "This Old House" project, I would call the wrecking crew.

Sorry to sound so negative, but this house came with the place, and I fell in love with the property first......okay, I sorta like the house, too......and the Township won't me split the property apart, sell this old house and build a new one--I had to put the blueprints away.....

geo

[Vahomesteaders]

There are alot of variables. But if the house has a solid foundation and is a solid structure overall like floors roof and walls. Thats a good start. We started out with a 20k house on 3/4 of an acre. I gutted the drywall made some repairs and left it a solid shell. Then flipped it for 90k. Next house was a 30k house on 1/2 acre. I painted it, gutted the kitchen and bathroom put down new flooring and added a deck totaling about 10k. Lived there two years and flipped it for 130k. Then bought the farm where I am now for 100k cash and have done very lttle renovation here other than paint and flooring. I have done some serious over hauling in the past and as long as you got a solid structure to start from its really not that bad. Just make sure the electrical, well and drainfield work properly and make repairs where needed. But 35 acres is so much sweeter than one it just may be worth it. Dont let a little elbow grease and sweat scare you off. The old houses can be made to beautiful homes affordably with just a little knowhow.

[clovis]

I am one of the strongest advocates for old houses you might ever meet, but the work is overwhelming sometimes.

One big, big, big problem is that often, you are fixing 80 to 150 years of other people's repairs, mistakes, etc.

Take our house for example. Someone in the 1980's thought that they could fix a plumbing issue easily. They used a .79 plastic hose diverter to run two lines off of one. That diverter snapped in the middle of the afternoon one day. Water was gushing out everywhere. Thankfully, we were at home, and heard the water running. It could have been a DISASTER if we had been away!!!

In our area, if you are restoring a home to look original, it is hard to find materials that will work in your home. It is even harder to find skilled tradespeople who are knowledgeable about old homes.

Again, I love old homes more than anyone, but restoration is not for the faint of heart.

If the house has been maintained well in it's life, the work will be much easier and cheaper.

[clovis]

I should add:

While I will never convince a soul in the world of this, I would leave the plaster, and repair it.

The lath is helping to make the house solid, and the plaster is an outstanding fire barrier.

Gutting and re-drywalling with new materials is hard work and very dirty.

Repairing plaster is super cheap and easy in comparison to drywall. Really easy when you get the hang of it. Just buy good tools and take your time.

[evan]

I redid our farm house last winter. I started gutting it opening weekend of deer season and we moved in mid March. Six months start to finish with spending every single day up here with the exception of 3 days in January when our second was born. If you are planning on staying in the house a while you will want to do it right. Strip it down to studs. New mechanicals. You absolutely do not want to do it with a baby in the house. In order to do it right you need to open everything up at once. For an old hose nothing is better then spray foam insulation. Nothing will pay for its self quicker. When you have the walls open that is the time to do the windows. Put in new construction flanged windows. The insert style never seal up right. How are the well and septic? The very first thing to do would be the roof. No sense sticking money into a collander....

[Kristabelle]

We are currently renovating a 100 year old house with a combined square footage (1st/2nd floor) of about 2400 sq. ft. We don't need to contend with structural damage or heavy floor replacement, but we still have a ton of work cut out for us. Old houses seem to have a way to really show their wrinkles after you start working on them. We have had several seemingly small projects get large fast due to not seeing underlying problems at first. It's a very rewarding experience but be prepared to put a lot of time, sweat, and money into it all. If you are able to do some of the work yourself or have helping hands, it does help a ton, but materials do add up fast.

As far as having a little one on the way: I commend your ambition but I honestly don't know how you'll pull that off. Is the house livable? Do you have another home you can stay in until the reno is complete? That can eat heavily into your budget too. We are holding off adding to our family until our house is completely done because I can't manage being pregnant with a chain saw, or hold a nursing baby with a nail gun. I have a five year old that slows us down when he's at the house because we are constantly trying to keep up with him and keep him safe in all of the chaos. If he were twins, nothing would ever get done.

This is a BIG BIG project, and it'll be fun and rewarding, but it may be best to wait until your little one is a bit older..

[V-NH]

This is all some really great info to consider. Much of the interior of the house actually dates back to the mid 1800s. For example, every ceiling in the house is covered in those ornate tin ceiling tiles. The bones of the house seem really solid. When I was there I spent a lot of time inspecting the foundation and the support beams. I didn't notice any obvious issues. That doesn't mean there aren't issues, just not really obvious ones.

According to the current owner there is no lead paint and no asbestos in the house. He has lived there 50 years, so I think it is a fair bet if he says there isn't any that there isn't.

Ultimately we would have to live there during the whole renovation process. I am fairly confident that our current home would sell without a problem. It is on a nice rural road and is extremely modern (finished basement, open concept, etc). We bought it as a first house when the market was down because we got an amazing deal on it. Now we're just starting to think about something more permanent.

[TnAndy]

Originally Posted by V-NH

... it was built in the 1830s and it needs a ton of cosmetic work....

It probably needs a ton of structural work as well. The problem with old houses is the materials of the day were limited.

You didn't call a ready-mix concrete truck to pour footings.....you found a few flat rocks laying around the place, and proceeded to get some shelter up. Insulation wasn't heard of....you built a bigger fire. When electric lighting came along a century later, that wonderful knob/tube stuff brought the 20th century into the home. The brick ( often hand made on site ) was laid with a lime based mortar, because Portland Cement ( the stuff that makes mortar and concrete REALLY hard/durable ) wasn't available until sometime after the 20's. Lime based mortars are fairly soft, and the weather eats away at them. That type of thing.

There were some good things, of course....you'll see massive wood beams, wide plank flooring, moldings and trim that are unique...and so on. They aren't your cookie cutter tract homes, for sure.

But you REALLY need to be careful before sinking a bunch of money into the pit of a really old home, and examine the 'bones' thoroughly to see if the end results will justify the expense you plan to sink into it.

[clovis]

Originally Posted by V-NH

According to the current owner there is no lead paint and no asbestos in the house. He has lived there 50 years, so I think it is a fair bet if he says there isn't any that there isn't.

With all due respect, I would say that he is full of hogwash.

Lead oxide was used to give paint:

1. Outstanding durability
2. Strength
3. Wonderful color fastness.

Lead based paint was used for over 100 years. The house was built in 1830. Do the math.

I have a few painter's books from the late 1910's, and one from the 1920's. The best exterior paint used 9 pounds of lead oxide per gallon. That is NOT a typo. Nine pounds of lead oxide per gallon for the best grades of exterior paint.

I would guess that if a house was built in 1830, it has an almost mathematical impossibility of never having lead used in its paint.