Would you use an invasive species?

[crazyfarm]

The Russian Olive is a "noxious weed" in my state and illegal to be sold. Colorado, however, sells them. They grow fairly well here. I have an issue keeping trees. Any trees I do have are babied. It's a bit ridiculous. I'm starting permaculture and have thus far planted a few of my forsythia bush starts. I can get Russian Olive seeds rather easily and if they do as well out on my property as they do elsewhere they'd be a great boon to my permaculture adventure. So would you do it?

[Peasant]

Don't be "that guy." I curse the SOBs who imported Himalayan blackberry and English ivy.

Maybe a better question to ask is what you're doing wrong with the other trees you've tried. I used to plant street trees for a living, they face some of the harshest conditions trees can face (compacted soil, pollution, vandalism, surrounded by concrete, etc.). >95% of the trees we planted survived at least 3 years, the great majority survived 10+ years.

It was part of my job to go around and check on "sick" trees. Those that didn't survive were usually planted too deep and/or not watered their first year in the ground. There were also the occasional problems with specific cultivars from specific nurseries.

[crazyfarm]

Originally Posted by Peasant

Don't be "that guy." I curse the SOBs who imported Himalayan blackberry and English ivy.

Maybe a better question to ask is what you're doing wrong with the other trees you've tried. I used to plant street trees for a living, they face some of the harshest conditions trees can face (compacted soil, pollution, vandalism, surrounded by concrete, etc.). >95% of the trees we planted survived at least 3 years, the great majority survived 10+ years.

It was part of my job to go around and check on "sick" trees. Those that didn't survive were usually planted too deep and/or not watered their first year in the ground. There were also the occasional problems with specific cultivars from specific nurseries.

wyoming wind sock.jpg

We honestly have the worst wind, year round. Add to that drought conditions and growing things is freakishly hard!

[Patchouli]

You are going to buy an illegal plant and plant it? I would not. I have seen whole mountains covered in kudzu and old farmsteads swamped in multiflora and privet. Find something native to grow. It might be hard to get it started but it will be worth it in the long run.

And honestly I think planting a non-native invasive would be antithetical to permaculture.

[bluefish]

It would depend on why the plant was considered a noxious weed. I've lived there and dealt with Russian Olive and wouldn't touch that stuff with a 50' pole. They tend to like a lot of water and if you have it, will suck it all dry. I kid you not, I have seen dry creeks come back after all the olive was cut. Not rushing creeks, but water in there at least. The thorns come off and get stuck in feet, I've had a cat that lost an eye to a thorn in a tree, had issues with lots of animals and thorns in those trees. Had issues with kids, too. Also, to me, they absolutely stink in spring when they flower. Noxious smoke when they burn, worthless as firewood.

At one time I had found a website for a research station down in Cheyenne that had several cultivars that were developed just for that area. That might be worth looking at.

[wy_white_wolf]

I wouldn't. If you can grow ROs then you can cottonwoods, a natural tree for this area.

Do you have enough water to support the ROs? They are heavy waterers and are lowing the water table along many creeks a streams. That prevents cottonwoods from establishing new trees.

WWW

[crazyfarm]

Originally Posted by Patchouli

You are going to buy an illegal plant and plant it? I would not. I have seen whole mountains covered in kudzu and old farmsteads swamped in multiflora and privet. Find something native to grow. It might be hard to get it started but it will be worth it in the long run.

And honestly I think planting a non-native invasive would be antithetical to permaculture.

It's illegal NOW to SELL it but it didn't used to be. There are lots of RO's planted around here. It would take little effort to grab some seeds from one.

[crazyfarm]

Originally Posted by thermopkt

It would depend on why the plant was considered a noxious weed. I've lived there and dealt with Russian Olive and wouldn't touch that stuff with a 50' pole. They tend to like a lot of water and if you have it, will suck it all dry. I kid you not, I have seen dry creeks come back after all the olive was cut. Not rushing creeks, but water in there at least. The thorns come off and get stuck in feet, I've had a cat that lost an eye to a thorn in a tree, had issues with lots of animals and thorns in those trees. Had issues with kids, too. Also, to me, they absolutely stink in spring when they flower. Noxious smoke when they burn, worthless as firewood.

At one time I had found a website for a research station down in Cheyenne that had several cultivars that were developed just for that area. That might be worth looking at.

They spread quite well here. BLM doesn't appreciate it. :P

I've never actually owned a Russian Olive so I'm really not that familiar with them. When researching plants that did well here it popped up.

[dizzy]

I would not plant a non native species that spreads. They mess w/the ecosystem. We have a ton of both Russian and autumn olive in this area, and they are changing the soil. This leads to a whole change in what will and will not grow. And, they spread very easily by birds.

[crazyfarm]

Originally Posted by wy_white_wolf

I wouldn't. If you can grow ROs then you can cottonwoods, a natural tree for this area.

Do you have enough water to support the ROs? They are heavy waterers and are lowing the water table along many creeks a streams. That prevents cottonwoods from establishing new trees.

WWW

I have oaks. They're doing really well in 1 spot and 1 spot only. They die everywhere else. :/ The spot they are doing well at is behind my big ol' lean-to. It can hold 4 tractors and we get some monster snow drifts there. That's the only place the oak is doing well. I haven't tried a cottonwood. My parents have one on their 5 acres and it looks pathetic so I haven't even wanted to try it.

We don't have any surface water on our property.

[JoePa]

I planted autumn olive along my property line to keep snow mobiles from going through the yard - they sure did the job but man they took over the place - I keep fighting to keep it managed - at one time the National Turkey Federation suggested planting autumn olive for wildlife -

[bluefish]

The way RO spreads, if it would do well on your property, it would probably already be there. You might be able to get it to grow there, but that is one I would avoid.

[crazyfarm]

Originally Posted by JoePa

I planted autumn olive along my property line to keep snow mobiles from going through the yard - they sure did the job but man they took over the place - I keep fighting to keep it managed - at one time the National Turkey Federation suggested planting autumn olive for wildlife -

Seems like prevailing opinion is don't do it!

[mnn2501]

Would you use an invasive species?

NO!

[Harry Chickpea]

I have some nice Canadian Thistle you can have. I'm sure it would grow.

[crazyfarm]

Originally Posted by Patchouli

You are going to buy an illegal plant and plant it? I would not. I have seen whole mountains covered in kudzu and old farmsteads swamped in multiflora and privet. Find something native to grow. It might be hard to get it started but it will be worth it in the long run.

And honestly I think planting a non-native invasive would be antithetical to permaculture.

Wanted to reply to this part. I've been intensively researching it for awhile. There is a permaculture institute in Vermont and when Black Locust became illegal they planted 100 more trees. They said it's the perfect tree for firewood. Fixes nitrogen, etc. Since they manage it it is not invasive and they'll continue to plant it.

So I do not think non-native plants = anti-permaculture.

[crazyfarm]

permies.com website has various opinions. Some people saying yes, some no.

[Sumatra]

I would have no qualms about it. It's a personal choice though. I spend a lot of time managing my land and can keep a balance without anything spreading too far. Invasive grasses are the worst, broadleaf plants, especially those that are perennial, are easy to deal with. I really wouldn't worry about trees, and even less so if they're hard to grow already.

[big rockpile]

Our state has taken it upon their selves to plant Invasive Species including Russian Olive. Me I'm dealing with Bush Honeysuckle. All of a sudden they have found Native is Best and are now pushing it.

big rockpile

[Peasant]

Even if you carefully manage your land and the invasive vegetation on it now, there's no guarantee the next person who occupies your land will.

Crazyfarm, is the wind actually blowing the trees down or is it just desiccating them? If the latter, watering well for the first 3+ years will help, wind really increases evapo-transpiration.

There aren't any trees native to your area that would work? If not, maybe trees aren't right for your area. I'm not a permie, but my understanding is that permaculture is about working with nature.

If you want to see what was growing there before white settlement, you can check out GLO surveys from the 19th century.