So confused about pasture

[PrettyPaisley]

My new friend with the lard and my old tractor came to plow up 1/4 of my pasture so I could plant a massive garden. I asked him to scuff up the 1/4 beside the garden area so I could plant fescue and keep it fenced off so the cow wouldn't be on it all summer. He said he would - but after plowing the garden he came back down and said the pasture looked great-it just needed fertilizer. I pushed a little more and he said he "would hate to mess it up" and that he wished his pasture looked that good. I pointed out the broom straw and he said that meant it needed fertilizer.

The plan was to add lime and more seed but now I'm confused. I was poking around online looking for a non-chemical fertilizer for fescue and came up with an article saying clover should be planted in the spring because :

Take a typical Iowa-Missouri improved pasture that is roughly 70% tall fescue (a cool-season grass) and 30% red clover (a legume). The fescue does most of it's growing early in cool weather, then it pretty much stops growing in the heat of summer. It responds well to nitrogen fertilizer, but if you put the fertilizer on in the spring, you encourage additional lush fescue growth at a time that it is already growing rapidly anyway. And that growth crowds out clover or other legumes.

http://www.agriculture.com/livestock...izer_279-ar333

What's the best bet for this part of the pasture right now? I am 100% in needs lime and I've got a massive compost pile of goat droppings that I can get on it...I just want it to be ready for some serious rotation at the end of the year. I planned to spray it with raw goat milk and fish emulsion regardless but am willing to fertilize with any other non-chemical fertilizer that it needs.

[evan]

Have you pulled soil samples?

[elkhound]

broomstraw= needs lime.....and dont be afraid to pour it on thick.....one year a farmer had extra money and for tax reasons decided to go all out on lime.he put either 2 or 3 tons to the acre....the hayfield was so thick and heavy he couldnt mow it.he got my uncle to bring his disc mower over and it even clogged and bogged that down.it took a discbine to mow it.

i think fall seeding works better....it gives time to establish root system more.most here in our area establish new hay and pastures by seeding in fall.the hot heat of summer is killer on young plants.if it was me and i wanted to spring seed i would go with ladino clover.i would only seed in legumes to that way you get the nitrogen fixing of it.there is a alfalfa...or was as i am not dealing in ag stuff much anylonger...called alfalfa graze..it had a tougher root system and held up better to being grazed over the..if its no longer on market i am sure there is something similar.this would boost the grazing protein.

[elkhound]

alot of cattle men here top dress fescue in fall to force extra growth out of it for winter. they call it "stockpiling". it gives grazing far into the winter.they dont cut it to save weat and tear and time and money on equipment and just let cows in on it daily for a heavy feeding. we use to do that and we hardly fed cattle until mid december unless it snowed heavy and covered it all.it saved on hay too...basically it is standing hay.

[evan]

Have you pulled soil samples?

[elkhound]

PLMS is the Pasture Land Management System

http://clic.cses.vt.edu/PLMS/

[farmerDale]

Pretty Paisley, I would get the soil tested so you know how much to put on, of whatever you choose to use. Next, and please do not take this wrong, ALL forms of fertilizer, whether it is manure, legume fixation, or commercial fertilizers have chemicals in them. I think confusion occurs at times, but honestly, once in the soil, the nutrients are EXACTLY the same. Regardless, I suggest a soil test to see what it is you need. Then, if using a non commercial fertilizer source, it will need to also be tested so you do not over apply and cause leaching, runoff issues etc. That is the good thing about commercial fertilizers. Their analysis is EXACT, and their application if done well, is EXACT too. So there is less chance of waste, leaching, and runoff, than when using some other forms.

Do what you need to so, I am just trying to help. The grass, the soil, the grazing animals: They will not have a clue from what source the fertilizer came, because it ends up EXACTLY the same, once in the soil.

All the best,
Dale

[elkhound]

building and maintaining soil fertility in times of high input costs pdf.

va.tech has many free items and info.

http://www.arec.vaes.vt.edu/southern...-fertility.pdf

[elkhound]

Rotational Grazing West Virginia University



http://frandafashion.com/master/rota...ia-university/



Controlled Grazing
of Virginia's Pastures



http://www.caf.wvu.edu/~forage/vpi/418-012/418-012.htm


p.s. dont forget N.C has a ag extension service.

[evan]

Another place to look for info is to stop at your local NRCS office. They will come out to your farm and look at stuff and help you plan how to manage it properly. There are also lots of cost share programs out there to help cover improvements.

[PrettyPaisley]

Thanks for the info. I can most definitely get a soil sample without a problem.

The thing is about the fertilizer - I get that the soil might not know a difference per se, but I really want to be careful with what I spread. It's my responsibility to know if what's going out is going to harm the bees or butterflies or other small critters that I might not even know are there. And - you gotta know that I simply do not trust that the folks selling the fertilizer really give a hoot about how their product might affect the soil long term. I see all those pretty green fields when I drive up and down the road - all bright and happy while mine is struggling. But I know they are also covered in stuff I don't want on my land and in the long run it's not what's best for how I want to raise my stuff.

[PrettyPaisley]

And goodness ... I didn't know there were so many other night owls like me around. I'm in good company !!! Wish I could turn my brain off late at night; other than when I'm in the shower - it seems to be when I do my best thinking (worrying)!

[geo in mi]

I would agree with the article you read about sowing a legume/grass mix into your pasture now and then using whatever form of nitrogen fertilizer you prefer in the fall. Lime added now will not break down fast enough to help change the soil acidity until six months or longer--but if your soil test says it is needed, then I would get started.

You need to learn, first, what kind of grass you have already. It will respond to fertilization, but you need to know what kind it is to know its life cycle, when it seeds itself, and when is the best time to fertilize it. If you already have tall fescue, you need to know if it is E+ or not. This is an endophyte condition that occurs in tall fescue that can be toxic to livestock during certain growth periods. If you are planting more tall fescue, you will want to plant endophyte free (E-) strain. Tall fescue has a definite learning curve with it--and you should pasture it and/or make hay according to its cycles. Here's an article on tall fescue that you must study in order to get into sync with it, if you want to use it for your pasture. http://www.caf.wvu.edu/~forage/tallfesc.htm

It really helps to get a legume established in your tall fescue. In fact, I would even try to get another grass, with a different growth cycle than fescue, to fill in for the summer months. The legume will also help to fill in the protein gaps. I hope you realize that it must be inoculated with bacteria(before sowing) to help it form the nodules that will promote more nitrogen fixation....othewise, it will take much longer to get the nitrogen going, since there won't be any of that specific bacteria in the soil until you put it there. Eventually the nitrogen in the legume growth will go a long way toward fertilizing your grass each year(provided you are on the right grazing/growth cycle).

As for spraying goat milk on your pasture, I would rather get a pig to drink it and convert that milk into meat....(if a pig will lower himself to drinking goat milk... )

The article I provided also states that you should establish a paddock/rotational grazing format with your pasture. This will help you to get the most bang for the buck in terms of protein given for the manure and urine put on it.

Hope all this helps.

geo

[MDKatie]

Soil test, soil test, soil test. Soil test. Did we mention soil test? It is the place to start, and cheap (less than $15) to do. Your extension service probably has a probe you can borrow, and they may even be able to come out and help you take a sample if you've not done one before. Without a soil test, you won't know how much lime you need, or what ratio of NPK, or other micronutrients your soil might need. Without the proper pH, your pasture won't be able to utilize the fertilizer correctly, and you'll be wasting time and money.

I agree that fall seeding is best, so I recommend soil testing now. Lime if needed, and then seed in the fall. That will give your soil enough time to utilize the lime, and be ready to support the new seed that is planted in the fall. Now, when I say "fall" seeding, I mean mid-Aug to mid-September. That is *the* recommended planting time for our area (I'm in MD, zone 7B, and I think we're probably in the same zone or near). That may seem early to some, but the seed really needs time to get roots established before winter. Although, if you've had a very dry summer you may want to wait until the later part of that window for seeding. Some seed in October, and it's usually not long enough to let the seed get established.

If you already have fescue, I would overseed with fescue and clover. When you mix other species of grasses, it tends to be a waste of money. For example, many people do Orchardgrass and Fescue, but OG is more palatable. The animals only want to graze it, and the OG will eventually die out and the fescue will be left. Unless you have very strict management, it's best to go with one species of grass and one legume. I do think a novel endophyte (not endophyte free) would be a good type of fescue to seed (one variety is called Max Q). The novel endophyte is not harmful, but keeps the grass hardy and drought tolerable. The endophyte free varieties tend to be less hardy and not do as well as the endophyte infected types. Seed, then keep the animals off until next summer (June probably) so the grass can really get established well before grazing. The grass needs to be able to withstand animals yanking it up, so those roots need to be strong.

Then, when you graze, leave at least 3" of grass at all times. Here's a website with info on pasture management. Most of it is geared towards horses, but it's relevant to all species of animals. Mainly read the 3 part pasture establishment publications.

http://mda.maryland.gov/resource_con...nure_info.aspx

[PrettyPaisley]

I'm fattening up a couple of pigs on goat milk now but when they are grown I'm outta the pig business. Those things smell awful and I'm more afraid of them than I ever was a 1200# cow. I am certain that if I slip in their mud they will eat me without ever coming up for air.

[rambler]

Your plants need to absorb N, P, K, and some micro nutrients through their roots.

They don't much care where those come from, they pick out what they need. But it has to be there for them to get. I understand that it makes a difference to you where they come from, and that is fine.

So, here is what happens:

Soil with low ph (needs lime) has an acidic soil, like vinegar. The nutrients in your soil dissolve sort of, and cling onto the soil particles. Your plant roots cannot pry these nutrients loose from the soil. So even if the soil is full of nutrients, your plants are starving for them. Your location this is likely... It is fairly easy to fix this by adding lime, but lime takes several months to start working, and gets used up every 5 years or so.

Where I live, the soil ph is high. My soil is like a box of arm and hammer.... About the same thing happens, the plants can't get the nutrients out of the soil. This is bad, because it is real hard to lower soil ph. I really have to work to keep my plants happy. Lime is a bad word here, be aweful to add more!

Its really good to have soil that tests 6.5 ph. Yours maybe is 5.6, mine is 7.5 to 8......

Anyhow, it is good to add the right amount of lime, every few years. To do that, a soil test will show what number your ph is right now, and suggest how much lime to add. 'More is better" isn't really true. You want a healthy, working, alive soil. To get that, you need the soil test. Then you know where to spend your money, how much to add, what gives you the best crops.

Then, your crops need a certain amount of P and K per acre per year. This can come from commercial fertilizer, from manure, from composted leaves and clippings, from organic rock crumbles.... (Be careful on compost - it needs to be composted, or the leaves and lawn clippings will use up more N than they supply as they finish the compost process....). Many different sources. Be mindful, most of these contain different amounts of P and K, so you need to figure out what you need, and likely have to use at lest 2 different products to make your soil more healthy, more balanced on the P and K. You could need 50 to 200 lbs of each of these per acre, and often anything you add to the soil has only 5 to 30% of that nutrient in it, so you might be adding 500 lbs of material per acre to bring your soil back to health.

Micro nutrients - boron, sulfur, zinc, moly, etc. are very important, but you need only 5 to 25 lbs of each of these per acre. Often times manure contains all you need and is why farmers about fight over manure to get their soil built up good.

So what to,do?

Soil test. You want to know the ph first, nothing else you do helps much unless you get the ph in an acceptable range. Not too much, not too little.

Find the P and K levels of your soil. From these, you can add what you need, and not over apply what you don't need.

If you use manure, the micro nutrients will likely take care of themselves. They can be part of the soil test, but for your needs and if you use manure, that should all work out on its own.

I haven't mention N much yet. In wet areas it is hard to test for as it moves around in the ground, what you test today might be gone in 3 months. So on wet areas, you just have to guess. Add what the plants need when they need it, and assume what might be in your soil. Really, this is the official way to do it.... Several small feelings a year of N is better.

Manure is good, as it releases slowly through the year as it breaks down.

Legumes as you mentioned work well, after you get them established. Remember to get inoculated seeds, as the legumes use little buggers on their roots to fix the nitrogen from the air. You need to have those little buggers in the soil, and they won't be if you haven't grown that legume before. It will take a year before these legumes and buggers get established and producing excess N, so it takes time.

Now, what I say applies to all of us, using only pellets of commercial fertilizer, or 100% organic systems. Makes no difference, you still need to:

Test the soil for ph, for P, for K. (Only need to do this every 4-5 years, once you know you can add to your soils to get them healthy dont need to test every year.)

Balance your soil with the right levels of each of those 3, not just apply 'more' of something but the right amounts.

Consider the N needs of the crop you are growing and find a source of it for your crop - legumes is good for a hay crop.

Be sure you have some micro nutrients available, grass crops especially like sulfur and others. But you don't want too much, more isn't better, you can assume manure adds these, a more expensive soil test can tell you what you have if you want to add some specifically.

I don't mean the rest of this to try to change you. Organic is great in small patches, and that is how you will go. No problems.

However, commercial fertilizers - most of these come from rock or air, processed to make N, P, K in little round pebbles. A lot of those pebbles are a bit salty, because the salt holds the nutrient in the highest concentration they can get. If we are in a wet climate, salt is always washed away from the soil. Back off to the oceans in a natural process. There is nothing particularly 'chemical' about these fertilizers. It is salt and the mineral or nutrient your plants need.

Now, there are some sludge products that are leftover from chemical plants, might have high metals. I'd be careful of those sources.

But the granular fertilizer you can buy - I've never understood what is 'wrong' with those? Just a salty batch of the nutrient needed. And the salt isn't all that high, manure often has as much salt in it......

I can understand at lest the resistance to pesticides, whether I agree or not I can understand. But commercial fertilizers, I don't see the difference between purchased or organic sources, the plants will see them the same, and there isn't much in the purchased stuff other than a little extra salt.

Just my thoughts, but not at all telling you what to do.

Whatever you use, the more you test your soil first, and try to match what you apply to what your soil needs, the better off you will be. For manure or compost, you can have those tested too or there are charts that 'average' out what different types will contain. So,you can apply what your soil needs.

Kind of like feeding your kids, you won't give them all the milk you can get, but not give them any fiber.... They need a balanced meal.

So does your soil, you need to balance what you feed it by knowing what it needs. And knowing the products you use to feed it.

Sorry for the long message, but this topic is basically simple, but also complicated.

Paul

[haypoint]

Originally Posted by PrettyPaisley

Thanks for the info. I can most definitely get a soil sample without a problem.

The thing is about the fertilizer - I get that the soil might not know a difference per se, but I really want to be careful with what I spread. It's my responsibility to know if what's going out is going to harm the bees or butterflies or other small critters that I might not even know are there. And - you gotta know that I simply do not trust that the folks selling the fertilizer really give a hoot about how their product might affect the soil long term. I see all those pretty green fields when I drive up and down the road - all bright and happy while mine is struggling. But I know they are also covered in stuff I don't want on my land and in the long run it's not what's best for how I want to raise my stuff.

I realize your sense of responsibility of knowing what goes into your soil and your concern for all the wildlife it contains. I want you to know and understand everything you can about the nutrients in manure, how clover produces nitrogen in its roots to feed other plants. How compost increases soil condition. Sounds like you understand that getting your soil's ph neutralized will unlock the nutrients in the soil your plants need.
Millions of farmers care deeply about the condition of their soil. Many have studied chemistry so they can insure their actions will keep their soil healthy. They have their whole lives on safe, healthy soil. But you only think you know those farmers are covering their fields with stuff you don't want on your fields. Don't think I'm saying you should spray anything on your soil. But I think your soil deserves that you know about all aspects of soil management. It is like people that only drink milk, refuse to taste goat milk because it tastes like garbage. That really isn't fair to reject something they know nothing about.

Feeding the soil is like feeding your livestock. If your livestock need protein, you increase the quality of hay, serving them higher protein hay. If your soils are deficient in selenium, you would be sure to get a mineral block that contains selenium. Your hay feeders would have to be built so all of your animals can reach the hay.
Same thing for your soil. Acid soil makes the soil's nutrients unavailable to the plants, like a feeder that is too tall for your goats to reach. If your compost has a very low ph, more lime is needed. But if you spread lime on top of the manure, a chemical reaction takes place, causing the valuable nitrogen to volatilize and go into the atmosphere. So, whenever possible, lime should go on first, before manure.
The soil requires specific amounts of nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium. These are chemicals. These chemicals are in your compost and animal manure. These same chemicals are also in the bags of fertilizer those guys you don't trust sell.
Let's say you want to make bread. The recipe calls for 5 cups flour (whole wheat, of course), tablespoon of yeast, 2 cups milk, 1 cup rolled oats.
In the Pantry, you have a mix that contains 10 cups flour and 4 cup rolled oats and 4 tablespoon yeast. Easy to figure that you can use a quarter of that mix, but you'll have to come up with more flour and milk.
The same goes for making healthy productive soil. If your compost and manure has all the nitrogen and phosphorous you need but is short on potassium, you cannot create healthy soil by simply adding more manure. You would need to seek out a source of potassium. As was stated earlier, it is the same chemical, no matter if it comes from a goat's butt or a bag at the feed mill. Chemical fertilizer is the same, but compost and manure adds more humus.

But before you can balance nutrients in the soil, you need to know what it needs and you need to know what your compost has to offer. If your soil needs 50 pounds of nitrogen, 10 pounds of phosphorus and 60 pounds of potassium per acre, but your compost/manure has 60 pounds nitrogen, 40 pounds of phosphorous and 5 pounds of potassium, per ton, how much should you spread on an acre? One ton or two ton and you will still be starving your soil of the potassium it needs.

You may be able to find products that are listed as all natural to get the nutrient levels up where they belong, but you will be buying the exact same chemicals and spending many times more money.

We are made of chemicals, everything is. Chemical isn't a bad word. There are bad chemicals, chemicals that kill. But NPK aren't. I encourage you to learn about them.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Fescue would not be my first choice if you are seeding. Fescue can cause problems, and it's no longer a recommended grass in many areas.

Fescue dangers in goats:
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/fescue.html

[wwubben]

Originally Posted by PrettyPaisley

My new friend with the lard and my old tractor came to plow up 1/4 of my pasture so I could plant a massive garden. I asked him to scuff up the 1/4 beside the garden area so I could plant fescue and keep it fenced off so the cow wouldn't be on it all summer. He said he would - but after plowing the garden he came back down and said the pasture looked great-it just needed fertilizer. I pushed a little more and he said he "would hate to mess it up" and that he wished his pasture looked that good. I pointed out the broom straw and he said that meant it needed fertilizer.

The plan was to add lime and more seed but now I'm confused. I was poking around online looking for a non-chemical fertilizer for fescue and came up with an article saying clover should be planted in the spring because :



http://www.agriculture.com/livestock...izer_279-ar333

What's the best bet for this part of the pasture right now? I am 100% in needs lime and I've got a massive compost pile of goat droppings that I can get on it...I just want it to be ready for some serious rotation at the end of the year. I planned to spray it with raw goat milk and fish emulsion regardless but am willing to fertilize with any other non-chemical fertilizer that it needs.

Do you understand that it would probably take a thousand gallons of goat milk per acre to give you much help.It would probably take about four pickup loads of goat manure per acre also.You would probably need quite a bit of nitrogen also.The soil test reports will show you what is required.I would also listen to your good neighbor.He may have some good advice if you ask him.Good luck with your pasture.

[elkhound]

you cant get away from fescue here..its everywhere..it gives the horse folks a problem because of fescue toxicity.....plus every logging operation uses fescue at end of timber cutting to seed over all roads as required by law.

i lost a suffolk punch colt at birth to it...it was so disgusting .