Property Question

joseph97297 · #1 03/20/14, 06:46 PM

Okay. We bought our land back in 2007, 25 acres in Southern Missouri. There was an original 40 acre plot, there are 10 acres on our eastern side and our western is a 5 acre plot. When we purchased the land, there was a survey and it was discovered that the 5 acre plot encroached quite a bit on the rear of their land onto ours. The owner of the 5 acres (he had a young family renting a single wide at the time) asked us to modify our description and land survey points to accommodate the encroachment. He gave us the front 1 to 1 1/2 acres and we gave him the back 1- 1 1/2 acres.

There was a 'gentleman's agreement' on use of the driveway which was across our land for the duration that the family was living there. There is no mention of this in the title or legal description.

Well, the family in the single wide got caught dealing, making, trafficking Meth or something and the trailer burned down after they were arrested. Another young family (Sheriff's Deputy) bought the land in 2012-2013. We moved out here later part of 2013.

They have built nothing but say they plan to start this year or next (about all I got from our brief two conversations).

They have said nothing about the land or driveway, and I have only seen them twice, both real fast times and they didn't seem to want to talk. The driveway is clearly marked as our property, the stakes and post are easy to see.

If I was in their position, I would have certainly set time out to talk about the driveway and the land, as I wouldn't plan to build a house where I wasn't sure of it.

I grew up in the South and people around us, my family and such, always had good relations with their neighbors. Is this a singular issue or is this just the way it is?

I am planning to fence in our property, because we have dogs and other liivestock that I want to protect and keep together. There is plenty of land for them to cut a new driveway if needed, but I don't know what their plans are or if I should be the one to 'hunt' them down and strike up a conversation.

No idea how to handle this so any advice or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks

GunMonkeyIntl · #2 03/20/14, 07:08 PM

Was the description and survey legally changed and registered?

Is the property now landlocked? Even if it was just a gentlemen's agreement to allow use of the driveway, there may be a legal obligation to grant an easement for the driveway. I don't know the legal details, but I have been told that in many areas, a piece of property cannot be legally landlocked, and the property owner with the most logical access to a road across their property has to grant a legal access easement of some sort.

I agree that they should probably have shown an interest in talking with you to find out what the details are, but it sounds like it might benefit you to find out all of the legal ramifications of the survey change you worked out with the previous owner before having that conversation with the new owner.

moeh1 · #3 03/20/14, 07:10 PM

if you are planning to fence, good fences make good neighbors...I would fence your owned property. That way no matter how nice they are or aren't you don't have to deal with it down the road ever again.

michael ark · #4 03/20/14, 07:29 PM

Put up a gate and will find you. Sometimes if the road is in use for so many years you cant legally close it.

haypoint · #5 03/20/14, 08:31 PM

Speculation. Maybe they intending on spending the extra money to put in a new drive in, or they know that since it is an established driveway, they can't legally be stopped from continuing to use it.
Hey, folks, are you listening? Gentleman's agreements won't wipe your rear when it gets right down to it. Get everything in writing. People die, move away, can't recall correctly, etc.
When I bought my farm, I had it all written down, $10,000 now and the rest in 3 months when we closed on the deal. Afterwards the owner said I could start bringing my stuff to the farm, anytime. On one of those trips, after I found I wouldn't be able to move up for 8 months, I asked if I could delay closing for an additional 3 months. Owner said that would be fine. A couple weeks before our original closing, the owner denied we had any other agreement and had the original agreement in writing. Our verbal modification was worthless.
A few years later, I offered to buy hay from a neighbor. He was going to let the clover go to seed and harvest that. I asked how much would he want if I bought the whole field. !0 acres, baled, $500 I asked how much hay would that be. He told me 3 ton to the acre. I figured 30 ton for $500 was a good price. (this was a long time so the price of hay is irrelevant here) I said I'd take it and made room in the barn for 1200 bales of 50 pounds each. But once it was baled, I got 400 bales. I figured I owed him a third of $500, because I got only a third of the hay he said I'd get. He figured I agreed to pay $500 for the whole field and I got the whole field. I paid him $400, far more per
tonthan I'd expected and we never spoke again. Wish it was in writing.

Is it a big deal to you to let him use the driveway? You can put a fence across it, on your property line or you can ask to talk to him about it to see what he believes is his property line.

am1too · #6 03/20/14, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joseph97297

Okay. We bought our land back in 2007, 25 acres in Southern Missouri. There was an original 40 acre plot, there are 10 acres on our eastern side and our western is a 5 acre plot. When we purchased the land, there was a survey and it was discovered that the 5 acre plot encroached quite a bit on the rear of their land onto ours. The owner of the 5 acres (he had a young family renting a single wide at the time) asked us to modify our description and land survey points to accommodate the encroachment. He gave us the front 1 to 1 1/2 acres and we gave him the back 1- 1 1/2 acres.

There was a 'gentleman's agreement' on use of the driveway which was across our land for the duration that the family was living there. There is no mention of this in the title or legal description.

Well, the family in the single wide got caught dealing, making, trafficking Meth or something and the trailer burned down after they were arrested. Another young family (Sheriff's Deputy) bought the land in 2012-2013. We moved out here later part of 2013.

They have built nothing but say they plan to start this year or next (about all I got from our brief two conversations).

They have said nothing about the land or driveway, and I have only seen them twice, both real fast times and they didn't seem to want to talk. The driveway is clearly marked as our property, the stakes and post are easy to see.

If I was in their position, I would have certainly set time out to talk about the driveway and the land, as I wouldn't plan to build a house where I wasn't sure of it.

I grew up in the South and people around us, my family and such, always had good relations with their neighbors. Is this a singular issue or is this just the way it is?

I am planning to fence in our property, because we have dogs and other liivestock that I want to protect and keep together. There is plenty of land for them to cut a new driveway if needed, but I don't know what their plans are or if I should be the one to 'hunt' them down and strike up a conversation.

No idea how to handle this so any advice or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks

Certainly delighted I'm not in your position. Prolly the best you can hope for would be to change access right to the property line.

rambler · #7 03/20/14, 09:49 PM

Well, there is a can of worms.

Sometimes it works out great and everyone is happy fishing.

But, you do have a can of worms.

Likely, they bought the property, figure the driveway is theirs, and don't know there is anything to talk about.

You can chase them down and talk about t, get everyone worked up, and get them looking things over with a lawyer.

If an access is used enough years, it often becomes a recordable easement......

Or you can get your fence up like you should have years ago, and be done with it.

If they come and don't mention the fence at all, then all is good.

If they come and are upset by the fence, the ball is in their court that they need to change a fence now.. That's a little harder than just claiming the access that is right there all the time.

Why would you put yourself in this position.......

But, as I see it, get the face up and see what happens. You got a better shot at things with the fence up first.

Paul

joseph97297 · #8 03/21/14, 05:41 AM

Well, the legal description mentions nothing of 'access' or anything other than we own that parcel and that is it.

I wasn't going to put a fence up while we were living in Georgia for 5 more years and 'hope' that it would be either standing or even still here when we finally moved.

Their property is not land locked, they have plenty more road access further down their lot so it isn't a problem as far as 'land-locking' them in.

When we bought our property, I walked the lines with the previous owner and and the surveyor. Did anyone else walk their lines to see what they were getting?

Since the legal description clearly states the land is ours, and mentions absolutely nothing about the access or anything else, I thought about putting up the fence then when they show up dealing with the issue, but I didn't want to start out on the wrong foot. Sure, I would legally be in the right, but without discussing it, I just don't know if throwing up a fence is the thing to do.

So, perhaps what I will do is go ahead and plant my post and then draw two strands of electric fencing across the 'driveway" and then discuss it when they come back. That way, it isn't to hard to either remove or add the other fence to it?

painterswife · #9 03/21/14, 06:04 AM

The legal description for access could be on his plat or deed. You need to check that out.

Waterwheel Farm · #10 03/21/14, 06:11 AM

In rural areas it's pretty common for these "gentleman's agreements" to be found. In the past you didn't really have problems with lawsuits and someone coming on your property to hunt, or you hunt on someone else's wasn't a big deal. But as more and more people relocate from cities into the country, the "country" culture has changed somewhat in certain areas. Property lines are strictly protected, no trespassing signs put up, etc. In my location, nobody has their property posted and it still isn't a big deal for people to hunt although permission is still generally asked for. But I sense that times are changing and I'm sure someday we will be pulled into the modern era. Since you are starting anew, with a new neighbor, it's probably a good time to establish property boundaries before it turns into something that creates hard feelings. It's in both parties' interest to have their own access. Any improvements or maintenance on your driveway will add nothing of value to your neighbors property. Also, should you or they ever decide to sell, lots of people are very reluctant to enter into any agreement that involves a shared access, legally described or not. What you run into is one party will be doing all the maintenance and not getting any help or funds from the other party, which can be frustrating. It's very easy to get into the position you're in just by virtue of trying to be a good neighbor, but now's probably the time to fix it. Me personally, I wouldn't block off the drive just yet. I would go the conversation route first. Be friendly, but firm with no wiggle room and a timeline. "Yeah, I guess I'll put in my own drive" is not a timeline. It's a stall tactic that will likely cause you to have to revisit the issue likely more than once. Good luck to you!

homstdr74 · #11 03/21/14, 06:54 AM

I live in South Central Missouri and have had a bit of experience with this, since a road runs through my property and wasn't on the deed or any description of the property. But, since in the State of Missouri the time limit on stopping a prescriptive easement through adverse possession is ten years (or actual evidence that the road wasn't in use the entire ten years), the road is the road and since there is nothing I could legally do about that I had it surveyed in and put onto the property description. It's still my property (because neither the county or the state own it), but not my property, if that makes any sense.

ceresone · #12 03/21/14, 07:14 AM

Since I've lived in S.MO. for over 70 years, go talk to them, explain what your agreement was with the other people, ask, if he wants to do the same, and if the answer is yes, then go to the courthouse and make it legal. You don't have a problem--they will either agree, or not--and you know where you stand before you do anything else. We really aren't that hard to get along with here--unless you come in and tell us we're doing everything wrong...

Hoopjohn · #13 03/21/14, 08:46 AM

Every person living on the planet, when purchasing a piece of property, needs to thoroughly examine access to the property, as a first step in the process. Of course, we live in a stupid world. People drive too fast in bad conditions, engage in habits (smoking, drinking, gambling) detrimental to there well being, and often sign documents without so much as a glance at what they're signing.

You certainly don't have to, but it would be a neighborly thing to set up a time for a sit down talk (possibly dinner) with your neighbors. Explain to them the facts of life regarding the property and what your future plans are. Mainly in regards to fencing off your property.

You can set the tone for decades of good neighbor relations by simply discussing the issues at hand. Communication is golden.

Wolf mom · #14 03/21/14, 09:39 AM

Go to the county, look up the plot map for your land.

1. Make sure that the 2 1/2 acre trade was recorded.

2. Look for an "easement" across his land (it will be marked on the map) - an easement lets him keep the property, but gives you the legal right to use an access across his land. An example of this is the electrical lines across someone's land. If it is a legal, deeded easement, he cannot fence you out or gate it with a lock unless you have a key. On the other hand, you can fence it and keep him out.

3. Do this first so you know where you stand before making any waves.

BTW: I sold an easement that cut across a neighbor's property for $10,000 last year. 30 ft wide & about a tenth of a mile long. Be prepared.

Jennifer L. · #15 03/21/14, 10:08 AM

First, it could be very good having a deputy as a neighbor, could be very bad to have that person on the outs with you.

Check deeds to see if that trade was recorded, and if it was, there's no ten year time limit up on possession since you bought in 2007 and it's only 2014. With that knowledge, either decide if you want to 1) Continue the agreement, which will in effect give that property to the Deputy in a few years, 2) Ask him to build a new driveway, or 3) Ask him to buy it.

Myself, I'd ask him to buy it if he's resistant to moving his driveway. No way would I continue the Gentleman's Agreement angle at this stage.

Good luck.

GunMonkeyIntl · #16 03/21/14, 12:06 PM

This may all be moot.
You mentioned in the first post that there is no dwelling on the property and that the new owners are getting ready to build.

In your follow up, you confirmed that they have other road access and are not land-locked.

They may be planning on putting a new driveway in their building plans.

You just need to have a friendly discussion with them, after finding out 100% sure what the legal status of the access and survey change were and how they're registered with the county.

It may be as simple as holding off on putting up your fence until they get to the driveway-building stage in their property development and letting them continue to use it until they get that far.

JoePa · #17 03/21/14, 12:14 PM

I'd sit down with the new guy and tell him that you are intending on raising some livestock and need to fence in your property - tell him about the driveway - tell him you'll be doing it this summer so he has a chance to get his own driveway - you don't want to continue the present arrangement - this should be a lesson to anyone else - don't let someone use your property anytime - yes - fences make good neighbors - why - because everyone knows who owns what -

wogglebug · #18 03/21/14, 12:41 PM

Don't ask, tell.
You allowed the access through your place when the other home was in place on the other property. It isn't there now, so it's a total new situation.
By all means pay them the courtesy of explaining your situation and reasoning to them, but you go ahead and use your land your way. They may well be able to make better use of their own land if they start fresh, buiding their own driveway where they want it on their own land rather than feeling constrained as to locations they can choose by feeling they have to use an existing driveway.

texican · #19 03/21/14, 10:11 PM

IF they have to borrow money for the house, your problem will show up in the title search (or should) and then you're going to be approached to rectify the problem. Gentleman's agreements aren't worth a bucket of warm spit...when one of the parties passes away or moves on or turns out to not be a gentleman... what's in the county courthouse legal descriptions is what's 'golden'...

joseph97297 · #20 03/22/14, 05:31 AM

Okay, so the legal description clearly states that we own that parcel of land (208 feet east, 208 feet south, 208 feet east, 208 feet south...etc... cuts like an L).

There is no mention of access or anything that we shook on. Would it be on their Title and paperwork if they had access or shouldn't it be on mine as well?

Thanks for all the advice. I don't know how I would track them down since I only know their last name and the wife's first. I do know that he is a Sheriff's Deputy, so I guess I could haul tail around the county until I get pulled over by him, but that seems like a costly adventure (plus, not sure what county, so go figure).

I am going to put up my fence line (post only) on that side and run me a strand or two of electric fence line. I've got the other 23 acres to fence in so not like it is a one day job. That will give me some time and if they stop by during that time I can discuss the issue with them.

Thanks again.