The plan of a new member, whatcha think?

Exclavius · #1 03/13/14, 07:18 PM

So, i joined the site a few weeks ago, and have been reading a fair bit. Got some great ideas, and learned some new things... So I guess it's time now to sit down and outline my plan for me and my family, and see what all you out there think. Am I crazy? or can i succeed with what i have in mind?

160 acres. 5 cleared (fallow in alfalfa cover crop for a few years) the rest 10 year old cut-over forest that's been replanted (a few pockets of older trees remain), with a few ponds/widened streams throughout, a bit of swampy land but not much. The streams actually originate from a spring on the property. Soil is clay-silt-loam. Between the 48th and 49th parallel, so about 100-110 frost free days per summer (zone 3a). Property is quite remote... maybe only 20 minutes to a "town" but in winter, it will be skidoo to get there.

The plan:
Two couples, two kids each couple, 4,11,10,16 years... (add a couple years by the time this all happens)

Rather than two "houses" in the traditional sense, we are going to build smaller cabins that are essentially just for sleeping and having a "place that is your own" then build a larger "common" building, which will have the kitchen and recreational area.
I've already factored in the cost of buying a band saw mill.

One of the reasons we're going, is to escape modernity, but we are kinda hypocrites .... The living areas will not have electricity, but we will have a solar array set up to run some DC Freezers (about what $8-10k will set me up with) and recharge batteries for radio/flashlight basics

We will farm as much of the 5 acres as we need/can. Livestock will be chicken/duck/goose, and we will hunt as well. There are deer, moose, bear, raccoon, porcupine, plus gamebirds and more. Decision isn't made yet as to if we will have goat(s).

The intent is to be completely self-sufficient. ... Yes I can see down the line having to buy new plastic film for the greenhouse, or new mason jars, maybe treating ourselves with a can of coffee or box of tea sometimes... I suspect that there will be some seeds we can't collect ourselves as well, so they might have to be replenished. Obviously fuel for chainsaws and sawmill will have to be purchased as well... unless we can set up a 'still down the line. So no, i know total self-reliance isn't going to happen, but the closer i get the better, cause every "purchase" will chaff my britches real good.

anyways, I hope this post will act as both an introduction of myself to you, the community here at HST, and spur some suggestions for me, from you... anything is appreciated and don't worry I have pretty thick skin

rags57078 · #2 03/13/14, 07:36 PM

your going to need cash to pay taxes and for things that do break or wear out

Shoestringer · #3 03/13/14, 07:45 PM

Haven't been here long either, but we have been working towards similar goals for some time now and it sounds good to me. I can't think of another couple I would want to share property with but that is the biggest drawback I see. Five acres is small but workable and you have room to expand. I would consider a dairy cow. Teenagers eat and drink a lot of dairy as I recall!
One of your most backbreaking chores will be hauling firewood, especially after using up the good trees nearer the houses. An ATV with a log skidder attachment would help and be on the small scale. A pair of horses might be even better if you have the inclination.

Ernie · #4 03/13/14, 07:59 PM

Let's see ... first ... welcome! And congratulations on your decision.

I'm just going to throw stuff out there. Don't feel compelled to answer these items individually or in total. It's just something for you to reflect upon in your thinking.

1. Two couples with kids on the same plot of property. Are you related? What is the common bond? Joint ownership in the land? Beware of issues that might arise in the community there and have a plan in place for resolution.

2. Don't buy things that aren't needed for the long haul. Avoid temporary solutions and expenditures.

3. Any level of "self-sufficiency" costs a fortune to attain.

Income doesn't have to be high, but it has to happen. Some sort of a plan needs to be in place for how to earn it there in your paradise. And then a Plan B, and a Plan C, and a Plan D.

4. The short growing season there IS a huge problem, but with 160 acres available to you to hunt on and the remoteness of the property, you can probably fill the gaps.

That's all that came to mind on the first pass.

haypoint · #5 03/13/14, 08:15 PM

To do all the things that it takes to be so nearly self sufficient would take a village of like minded folks. You have the advantage of four adults.
Get ready by helping someone with a band saw mill. Learn about how much lumber comes out of a log. See how long a blade lasts. After a while they get brittle and have to be replaced. You going to try to generate some cash sawing lumber for neighbors? Check out if you are allowed to use uninspected lumber in a house. The cost of lumber is only a small part of the cost of a home.
Lots of climate changes along the 48th, rainfall and show amounts vary a lot, too.
When cash runs short, who has to take a job in town?
Years ago, wife and I managed a 3 acre garden and both worked 40 hour a week jobs in town. Your mob should be able to do 5 acres. Got a good supply of water? Gardening skills?
After you shoot the deer off your property, do you have other areas to hunt? Skilled hunter? Porcupine?
When the batteries require replacement, cash reserves to do it all over again?

My 80 year old neighbor is about as food self sficient as you can get. When I sit down to a dinner of beef steak, steamed Swiss Chard, red potatoes, whole wheat biscuits and a big glass of whole milk, I think about this simple meal and the simple life. But to have all that on my plate is complex. Maintaining the mower, rake and baler to make the hay to feed the cow to get the beef, The time, twice a day to milk the cow, strain and chill the milk. Haul the manure to the garden, weed and water the garden, harvest the chard and then get out the pressure cooker to can the produce. Grow the wheat, harvest, thresh and store the grain, grind the grain to make the flour to make the biscuits.

lmrose · #6 03/14/14, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ernie

Let's see ... first ... welcome! And congratulations on your decision.

I'm just going to throw stuff out there. Don't feel compelled to answer these items individually or in total. It's just something for you to reflect upon in your thinking.

1. Two couples with kids on the same plot of property. Are you related? What is the common bond? Joint ownership in the land? Beware of issues that might arise in the community there and have a plan in place for resolution.

2. Don't buy things that aren't needed for the long haul. Avoid temporary solutions and expenditures.

3. Any level of "self-sufficiency" costs a fortune to attain.

Income doesn't have to be high, but it has to happen. Some sort of a plan needs to be in place for how to earn it there in your paradise. And then a Plan B, and a Plan C, and a Plan D.

4. The short growing season there IS a huge problem, but with 160 acres available to you to hunt on and the remoteness of the property, you can probably fill the gaps.

That's all that came to mind on the first pass.

All said here is true and good advice, I would like to add one important factor. How do all the kids feel about adopting this life style? By the time you do this the oldest two may be grown.

Kids not brought up in a country environment and suddenly have their life style changed can sometimes rebel and they can certainly cause havoc to a family. I speak from experience as my kids were 6, 9, 10 and 11 yr. when I re-married a farmer and moved to an island Light House. The two youngest loved it but the two oldest hated it!

When we moved off the island and were very poor financially but very self-sufficient and farmed the two youngest still thrived. The two oldest made all our lives miserable because they wanted the life style their friends from school had . Those two left home together at 16 and 18 yrs.. It took my son 15 yrs. and my daughter 25 yrs. to apologize for all the misery they caused us! They both said it was deliberate because they hated how we lived!
So make sure both you and the other family have kids that on board for doing this. It may be more change than they want. I always tell people if you are going to change your lifestyle drastically to do it when the kids are very young or wait until they are out of the house if you want peace. I will add that all my children turned out well and I now have a good relationship with them except for my son who died at 37yrs.. It took a very long time to repair our family though. Good luck to you all.

watcher · #7 03/14/14, 08:37 AM

To problems I see. One is common the other specific to your situation.

Are you really ready, willing and able to do the work necessary? I've seen a LOT of people who start off all gung-ho but when hit in the face with the reality of it give up. Its a 24/7/52 job with no sick days, no vacation, and no automatic pay raises for time on the job.

Second, the other couple. Its hard work and takes a lot of dedication to keep a marriage together trying to keep two families, even if they are related, together almost always fails. There are probably people who are or were on the board who have tried it and had it fail. I don't know but I don't think we have anyone here who is making it work. You should put out a msg to see. If so they could give you a lot of info.

am1too · #8 03/14/14, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exclavius

So, i joined the site a few weeks ago, and have been reading a fair bit. Got some great ideas, and learned some new things... So I guess it's time now to sit down and outline my plan for me and my family, and see what all you out there think. Am I crazy? or can i succeed with what i have in mind?

160 acres. 5 cleared (fallow in alfalfa cover crop for a few years) the rest 10 year old cut-over forest that's been replanted (a few pockets of older trees remain), with a few ponds/widened streams throughout, a bit of swampy land but not much. The streams actually originate from a spring on the property. Soil is clay-silt-loam. Between the 48th and 49th parallel, so about 100-110 frost free days per summer (zone 3a). Property is quite remote... maybe only 20 minutes to a "town" but in winter, it will be skidoo to get there.

The plan:
Two couples, two kids each couple, 4,11,10,16 years... (add a couple years by the time this all happens)

Rather than two "houses" in the traditional sense, we are going to build smaller cabins that are essentially just for sleeping and having a "place that is your own" then build a larger "common" building, which will have the kitchen and recreational area.
I've already factored in the cost of buying a band saw mill.

One of the reasons we're going, is to escape modernity, but we are kinda hypocrites .... The living areas will not have electricity, but we will have a solar array set up to run some DC Freezers (about what $8-10k will set me up with) and recharge batteries for radio/flashlight basics

We will farm as much of the 5 acres as we need/can. Livestock will be chicken/duck/goose, and we will hunt as well. There are deer, moose, bear, raccoon, porcupine, plus gamebirds and more. Decision isn't made yet as to if we will have goat(s).

The intent is to be completely self-sufficient. ... Yes I can see down the line having to buy new plastic film for the greenhouse, or new mason jars, maybe treating ourselves with a can of coffee or box of tea sometimes... I suspect that there will be some seeds we can't collect ourselves as well, so they might have to be replenished. Obviously fuel for chainsaws and sawmill will have to be purchased as well... unless we can set up a 'still down the line. So no, i know total self-reliance isn't going to happen, but the closer i get the better, cause every "purchase" will chaff my britches real good.

anyways, I hope this post will act as both an introduction of myself to you, the community here at HST, and spur some suggestions for me, from you... anything is appreciated and don't worry I have pretty thick skin

Wishing you the best.

emdeengee · #9 03/14/14, 12:40 PM

Thank goodness for the hippies of the 1960s and 70s whose social experiment in communal living exposed some of the problems.

Your plan should absolutely include a business and a social contract. If you are joining together more then one family there are serious questions to consider.

On the business side – who owns the land? Is one family the owner and the other the tenant? or is it equal financial contributions? If the later – what happens if one family decides this is not the life for them? Do they have to walk away with nothing or does the remaining family have to buy them out and just how would that be made to happen?

How would expenses and profits be shared? Who and how do you decide what your plan of action is going to be? Is it just the males or is it the couples together or is it based in each individual having an equal say and what about the children as they become adults. If the two adult children belong to one family then there could be a serious imbalance of power if they are considered equal partners and side with their parents. On the other hand if they are just considered labour why would they want to stay? And if there is a disagreement of how to proceed with developing the land how will you settle this?

As for the social side. Have you lived and worked with your potential partners? If not then you should move in together (sharing a kitchen but going home to sleep) for a few months to see how you really get along. An off the grid camping excursion is a great way to find the cracks and stressors.

Since there are children who will be adults when you start this in a couple of years as well as children who will need schooling what is the division of labour going to be like when one family has to devote time to home schooling or transporting to shool and activities? What say will the adult children have in the life decisions? Do they get to bring in partners and who gets to vet them?

What happens if someone gets ill or has an accident? Are all willing to devote their life to taking care of this person for whatever may be the duration? How do you reassess work and profit? What happens if one couple gets injured? Who pays for the medical care? Is it broken down by family or does the whole commune contribute?

What happens if it all fails. How will you move on to another life?

Doing this is very exciting and the rewards are enormous. But you absolutely have to plan and consider human nature and the strengths and weaknesses of all involved.

You said that you have a couple of years before anything happens so this gives you a lot of time to learn to do everything that you will require. Volunteer or hire yourselves out to work on farms etc and start preparing/growing food as you would when you are on the land or actually go to school to learn. It is best to learn everything and practice everything you can before hand especially when you have a family depending on a new lifestyle. Homesteading is not easy so if you can cut down on the on-the-job training by having lots of practical experience everything will move along more smoothly. Baking your own bread while learning to manage a wood stove makes for unnecessary stress. Learn to bake first. Learning to split wood when it is already freezing outside is an exercise in frustration.

Wishing you success in whatever and whenever you instigate your plan but hoping that you will practice a lot before you head off into the new life. We spent years learning and practicing and it really made the transition very easy.

ronbre · #10 03/14/14, 03:32 PM

whew good luck with that..

I find that saving seed on my OP produce is a lot easier said than done and I'm in zone 4/5....the problem is getting the produce to grow mature enough to set seed.

with a greenhouse you'll get some, my swiss chard reseeds really well in the greenhouse so I never have to reseed that..and I am able to save seed from some plants..but I'll be honest I'm having a real problem saving seed at this zone level.

I'm starting a lot more plants early inside now so maybe they'll be a little more mature at seed saving time..but I'm not going to place my $ on it.

with this really bad winter we lost a lot of our trees that weren't surrounded by chicken wire to rabbit damage again this year..probably 100 trees will have to be cut off at ground level and regrown from stumps again..I did however have my good fruit trees and nut trees surrounded by wire fencing where I was able to do so..but even then the snow got so deep that some adventurous rabbits were able to do some damage above the 4' high wire cages.

Exclavius · #11 03/14/14, 05:49 PM

Well, i want to thank people for all that they've suggested and said, and for their wishes.

@emdeengee THanks for those ideas and things to consider, and yes i have at least considered everything you've mentioned. There is one owner to the land, the other couple will be technically renting from us. We've agreed that decisions are made by a discussion of adults and children if relevant, then I make the final decision. My "wife" actually is more "male-chauvinistic" than I am, so... I don't have to worry about feminism gettin' in the way there.
As for the social issues of the two families, we have great synergies, most people around us aren't just sure how our families are.. we live apart, yes, but our lives are very intertwined..

Illness being covered, this is Ontario, so other than transportation .. not an issue.

The "if we fail" everyone of us has to ask ourselves that before we go, and after asking ourselves that, then can we go. But for me... I can always sell the property and get at least enough to set myself up in some business

we will certainly be doing as much pre-learning and pre-adjusting to the ways that things will be like as we can.

Luckily 3 of the 4 kids are gung-ho about it, the fourth... that's perhaps the biggest hitch... but she's not dead set against it... it's just questionable..

@ronbre

Thanks for the info about seed saving.. the more i've been reading lately gives me much the same opinion as what you just said. The greenhouse as you say might hold the keys to some success on that.. and might help prevent cross-fertilization too.

About hunting land.. well 90% of the area is crown land, not accessible by road.. so yeah plenty of land to hunt.

Again, thanks to all who replied your input is helpful.

palm farmer · #12 03/14/14, 06:39 PM

I watched a similar plan fall apart down in Mexico,aquaculture and chickens, IMO, they were not as organized as they should have been, lots of interaction, and the 24/7 grind of working together, they were at each others throats after 8 months, the guy who ended up buying hired some locals and built a small hotel and bar n grill , was wildly successful, till the cartels burned it down

Shoestringer · #13 03/14/14, 06:43 PM

I was thinking about you today and thought I would recommend a good first aid course for all of you. As much help as OHIP will be with medical expenses, real life saving happens right away, in the bush. Look into first responders courses from Red Cross or St. John's Ambulance. They might seem a bit expensive but well worth it. Very good stuff to bring a little reality into people's thinking and a great confidence builder for the younger members. If only one of you knows what to do, the tree will fall on them.

k9 · #14 03/14/14, 06:57 PM

What is your background? Have you done any of this before?

Maura · #15 03/14/14, 07:17 PM

I think either people vote, or you decide. You can't have both. Sit down, talk it out, and if you can't come to the same conclusion, then shelf the idea and talk about it again.

topofmountain · #16 03/14/14, 07:23 PM

The thing that I always think about is the money. These Ideas are great but it takes money & a fair amount in the long run.
My wife & I have started our place in November. We are paying cash as we go. My wife has a good paying job & our expenses are pretty much covered by my monthly retirement. We stared with a fair amount of money saved. But money never goes as far as we hope or plan. There are always unexpected things that come up. Repairs, replacement of wear items, medical co-pays, etc. We feel a strong need to maintain a savings so putting everything into a place isn't really that good of stewardship either. Too many times in my life I have seen things happen that I was so thankful to have a back up of money. Having a lot of things to sell is great but there is an old saying "things are ONLY worth what someone is willing to pay you for it". That is great if you don't need the money but if you do that puts things into a whole different perspective.
Just my two cents.

ronbre · #17 03/15/14, 09:49 AM

being totally dependent upon your property for food the first few years also can be iffy..I would suggest getting perennial plants and fruit and nut trees and bushes in right away, even before you spend bucks on solar..as food is more important than electricity..also make sure you can protect your babies from rabbits and deer..as they will eat what they can get to. Chicken wire is a huge help there..i buy bamboo stakes by the bundle and 4' high chicken wire..you'll also need a wire cutter, a good one.

Water is also extremely important and getting it out of the ground..water and food and shelter should be tops on your list..then go from there

emdeengee · #18 03/16/14, 02:39 PM

[QUOTE=Exclavius;7001498]Well, i want to thank people for all that they've suggested and said, and for their wishes.

@emdeengee THanks for those ideas and things to consider, and yes i have at least considered everything you've mentioned. There is one owner to the land, the other couple will be technically renting from us. We've agreed that decisions are made by a discussion of adults and children if relevant, then I make the final decision. My "wife" actually is more "male-chauvinistic" than I am, so... I don't have to worry about feminism gettin' in the way there.
As for the social issues of the two families, we have great synergies, most people around us aren't just sure how our families are.. we live apart, yes, but our lives are very intertwined..

Illness being covered, this is Ontario, so other than transportation .. not an issue.

The "if we fail" everyone of us has to ask ourselves that before we go, and after asking ourselves that, then can we go. But for me... I can always sell the property and get at least enough to set myself up in some business

I sincerely hope that anyone wanting to live an alternate lifestyle finds success. But the chances are always greatest with a balanced concept. Unfortunately I see yours as not very balanced.

Living together is always very different from just having an intertwined life. What starts out as fun and an adventure tends to change when everyone realizes the hard work and sacrifices that have to be made. And when they are not even. And there is always stress when there are hard times or when things go wrong. And they will - even if it is the failure of the garden because of the weather.

How long until the 'renter' realizes that their work only serves to advance the owner? That no matter how much is discussed the final decision does not actually involve them at all unless they can convince the owner. Who wants to spend their energy always negotiating with someone else? Whose ideas will always take precedence if there is a different outlook?

And then there is the realization that 20 or 30 years down the road they will be in the same position as on the first day - and are actually only there on sufferance and for the duration of any lease. Can be gone in a heartbeat if there are problems or can end up homeless if the owner decides he does not want to do this anymore. Or the owner makes a complete mess of the finances and there are major money problems.

How long until the owner begins to think that he is putting much more into the whole project then the renters? What happens when the renters decide that they want to leave or put their energies into earning enough for their own place? And the fact that you only consider your out if you fail (sell and set yourself up in business) does not bode well for your "partners".

As for healthcare in Ontario or anywhere in Canada. There is a lot that is not covered - dentistry for one thing as well as prescriptions - and if someone ends up in hospital or away for treatment their contribution to the labour force disappears.

**Terri** · #19 03/16/14, 05:42 PM

Kids need things. School paper, shoes, birthday gifts, etc. So, choose your market and your product.

Once the finances are figured out, happy building!!!!!!!!!!!!!