Old house, nw issues...LOL!

**Roadking** · #1 02/28/14, 10:01 AM

Just put a new hot water heater in. Filled it and reopened all the lines. First drop is the kitchen sink...perfect.
Washer and laundry sink are next. Good.
Powder room next...water is tepid...both hot and cold outlets.
Upstairs...all COLD (we have a well, water is about 50 degrees).
Closed the Cold water feed...getting hot water out of the cold side. closed each feed at each source, then as expected, no water out the cold side. Must be a mixing valve somewhere along the lines (at one time it was a boarding house, and it was a common practice around here, from what I hear to prevent burns).
Followed all lines, about to check under the vanity upstairs as that is the only place I can't visually see the entire feed. Have to remove it.
In the event there isn't a mix valve...what else?
It did get better when I only opened the cold up a 1/4 turn...apparently that is where it always had been, I just never noticed.
Old houses...what do you expect.

Matt

**Roadking** · #2 02/28/14, 12:27 PM

Okay. Shut cold feed off to experiment. went to downstairs shower truned on the cold faucet...cold for a bit (shouldn't be any water coming out, but it's full strength), getting warmer and then 125 hot.
Next, feel all cold water lines in house, starting with where it comes thru floor from the basement and splits to bathroom and upstairs. Feed is cold...good, not the heater. Feed to upstairs, hot. Check upstairs at shower (next drop). Cold feed is hot. Cross the bathroom to the sink/vanity...cold feed is cold. Looks like the missing link is there...of course, just drywalled downstairs.
Looks like I'll be lifting the floor this weekend to find the culprit...grrrr! Well, on the plus side, it's too cold to enjoy being outside.
Have plenty of PEX, Shark Bites, implements of destruction ready. Oh, the fun I have to look forward to, but it will be worth it in the end...I hope.
Matt

Harry Chickpea · #3 02/28/14, 12:44 PM

You might want to replace the mixing valve on the shower before opening up walls. Problems there are common. If there is something in the wall, it is a tempering valve. That would be an unusual place for one though.

**Roadking** · #4 02/28/14, 01:30 PM

I shut the cold feed off to the shower before, and like all other faucets, when the line feed is closed, nothing comes out. A plumber friend many years ago gave me that advice to make my last home renovation easier.
Thanks for the input.

Matt

BlueRose · #5 02/28/14, 02:54 PM

No advice just wanted to say good luck. Tearing up a floor is no fun.

Nimrod · #6 02/28/14, 03:50 PM

I can't quite follow what's happening. A possibility is that the hot water pipes to the second floor are almost plugged with minerals. (hot water pipes will plug up faster than the cold ones). When you turn on both the both the hot and cold water, the higher pressure in the cold side won't let any hot water come out. How's the pressure when you turn on just the hot water?

**Roadking** · #7 02/28/14, 03:55 PM

Pressure is fine on both sides.
The part of hot water (or any water, for that matter) coming out the cold side when the main feed for cold is off tells me I opened the main feed too much and the hot and cold are connected somewhere. Guessing that was their method of a mixing valve...lower volume on the cold side...
Appreciate the input as we are just trying to run it down. Got some time on my hands, and I can always use another project...LOL!

Matt

Harry Chickpea · #8 02/28/14, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roadking

Pressure is fine on both sides.
The part of hot water (or any water, for that matter) coming out the cold side when the main feed for cold is off tells me I opened the main feed too much and the hot and cold are connected somewhere. Guessing that was their method of a mixing valve...lower volume on the cold side...
Appreciate the input as we are just trying to run it down. Got some time on my hands, and I can always use another project...LOL!

Matt

No. Tempering valves have no respect for pressure when operating properly.* A defective one, however...

*as long as the outflow pressure is less than inflow pressures.

k9 · #9 02/28/14, 07:48 PM

Everything worked ok with the old water heater?

**Roadking** · #10 02/28/14, 09:56 PM

No, old water heater kept things "tepid"...about 1/3 full of sediment... going to clean and keep aside for backup.
Putting shut off valves in tomorrow after the split off to isolate the upstairs bathroom. if that works, then I've got some work to do.
If it doesn't , buying 200' of PEX and making a new run...LOL!
Either way...no fun.
Had a few friends to talk about it with...the cut off valves are the final way to isolate the issue.
Why do I love old houses?

Matt

#11 02/28/14, 10:18 PM

This is very confusing . I am assuming that everything was working correctly before you installed the new water heater ? I will assume you have 2 pipes coming up through the floor from the basement ? 1 hot & 1 cold ? The kitchen is the first drop & you said it's perfect , next drop is washer & laundry sink & you said good . Is there a difference between ( perfect ) in the kitchen & ( good ) in the washer & laundry sink or did you just use 2 different words ?
Next is the powder room & you said tepid in both hot & cold ? I wonder if the solenoid valve in the washer could be stuck in a position that is allowing the water to mix there ? Have you tried shutting off the faucets that the washer hoses connect to & see if that made a difference ?

blooba · #12 02/28/14, 10:23 PM

I don't understand if all you did was replace the water heater, how would this of changed anything else? Are you sure you haven't turned a valve on/off that wasn't or hooked things up wrong? Just replacing the heater shouldn't change anything, unless of course as mentioned, something either got dislodged and is jammed up in the pipe or something is defective.

Was everything working properly before the heater died?

bigjon · #13 02/28/14, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blooba

I don't understand if all you did was replace the water heater, how would this of changed anything else? Are you sure you haven't turned a valve on/off that wasn't or hooked things up wrong? Just replacing the heater shouldn't change anything, unless of course as mentioned, something either got dislodged and is jammed up in the pipe or something is defective.

Was everything working properly before the heater died?

It's not uncommon for quite a bit of junk to be dislodged when working with water pipes , especially old ones .

**Roadking** · #14 03/01/14, 08:44 AM

Figure something got dislodged. Goin to put in shut off valves to cut off upstairs and test my thinking before I start ripping apart.
And yes, it is confusing...that's why I put it in "writing" to keep my mind straight...it helps me from forgetting what I have done and what I'm about to do.

Matt

Rustaholic · #15 03/01/14, 09:13 AM

One of my sweet wife's uncles had a wood stove in the basement that had a water coil in it to preheat the the cold water before it was sent to the water heater. His wife showed me the steam coming from the kitchen faucet every time she opened it. They had to put a tempering valve at the output of the water heater.
ALSO
A friend here has one of those outdoor stoves that heats water and it has a heat exchanger along side the water heater with 185F water flowing through it. He also had to use a tempering valve there.

Old houses are a mystery until you get all of it's systems figured out.
Is there a rear access to the downstairs shower valve?
Seems like I would start there.

**Roadking** · #16 03/01/14, 10:21 AM

Yup, checked all mixing valves.Getting ready to put in the cutoff valves.

Matt

**Roadking** · #17 03/01/14, 11:30 AM

Cut off valves in, shut off the upstairs and downstairs works as it should. At least I answered my original question...where was it messed up. Now I have isolated the area at least, and kids can take a proper temp shower...LOL

Matt

#18 03/01/14, 11:39 AM

Is your upstairs tub/shower valve/faucet one of those with the built in tempering valve ?

**Roadking** · #19 03/01/14, 12:15 PM

No, just a standard two handle with mixing valve. It tested fine. It must be between the shower and the sink...I'll tinker with it later...boys want to go sledding, and my buddy I count on as a spare set of eyes is at a baby shower for his grand daughter.
He agreed that there is either a tempering valve gone bad or a simply crossover hooking the hot and cold together (the latter most likely due to when the plumbing was done, and this wasn't exactly an affluent area) in the ceiling or floor, depending on which floor your on.
Going to access from the kitchen ceiling as it's easier to repair drywall than flooring.

Matt

bigjon · #20 03/01/14, 01:14 PM

happy hunting and good luck!