Land for homesteading in montana

[anbro]

So my wife and I decided to expand our search for land a little from just eastern Washington to Idaho and Montana given their varying but more liberty-leaning laws.

We've found some options for acreage over there that we could do between Helmville & Drummond, but it'll be at higher elevation (About 5-6000ft). The options have springs and creeks. Looks like the caveat (it's always there, if it's not soil, water, terrain, no southern exposure, no timber, access, elevation it's cost) is that access may be difficult in the winter.

Our hope is to drive over there - about a 10 hour drive - and look around at a few of these properties, but our concern is that we may not be able to get to them this time of year.

Anyone from that part of Montana on here that I could pick your brain and learn a little about the area?

Specific questions I have -- what's the snow look like right now? I want to go look. I'm not new with the snow (grew up in eastern washington), which is part of my caution. We'd be in a 4x4 Excursion, could get chains if needed.

I probably shouldn't sign until I can see under the snow too, though.

Lets see, other questions... We're a family of 6 kids (the youngest is a month old, oldest is almost 14), homeschool, we are gardening for the first time this year. We'd be building our own stuff over there if we get land, developing a spring, etc (needless to say, we have to verify if said springs/creeks are useful or not). If any of you have done this sort of thing, particularly with a large family, I'd LOVE to hear about it or be directed to your story.

I know the growing season is really short there, particularly at 6000ft. My understanding is that greenhouses (heated, somehow, ideally) would be really helpful with that.

Any words of advice, direction to any land you know of for sale, would be really helpful. Income source after we moved would have to be a hodgepodge. I'm a software engineer and formerly in management consulting by profession, but also good at mechanic work, woodwork, kind of a generalist having grown up on a farm and still do my own work on almost everything from home additions to auto transmission rebuilds.

Sorry for the somewhat rambly post... my hope is to get a conversation going and maybe find out about the area from folks that live near there.

[Marcia in MT]

This is definitely not the best area for your garden! There are some gorgeous valleys in that area, but the elevation means that even in summer, the nights can be cold. Yes, the growing season is short. Greenhouses are expensive to heat, and solar ones are hard to use in the winter with the short, cloudy days.

And unless you find valley bottom/river bottom land, the soil is bound to be thin and rocky. Even then, it can be gravelly.

Every family needs some cash. What do you plan to do to earn it? As just about everywhere, Montana's economy is still shaky. And wages are generally lower, anyway.

Not really trying to discourage you (I can't imagine living any where else!), but you need to be aware of local climate and economic conditions and how you would deal with them. I'm glad you are doing the research -- best of luck to you!

[opportunity]

I wouldn't count on feeding yourself from a garden in that area. It can be very hard to get things to grow. The guy who lives next door to me works on a ranch in Drummond they can have a hard time getting in the crops and they have bottom land (as in the stuff that is not for sale at a price most can pay) You can expect snow until June and it can start again in August at those elevations. Right now we have about 8 inches of snow last week we didn't really have any in the valleys. We have been looking at property and access is a huge issue if they are lower priced there is always a good reason and it is that often you can't really get to the property or it's very hard to get to. The last two we tried to get to were not possible and we though they would be. There are also very few jobs in that area, and not a lot of people you can do odd jobs for since the population is so low.

[anbro]

Hey folks - thank you for the information. A couple more questions:

1) opportunity, you mentioned that you have about 8" of snow right now. What's your elevation? Trying to ascertain if I could get the Excursion in there or if I'm gonna be humping it with snowshoes to see.
2) You guys say you can't count on feeding yourself from a garden -- Yeah, the growing season is quite short. But if it's well managed w/ permaculture methods I would think you could make a very significant dent, even there, no? Sounds like a huge greenhouse(s) is in order, making use of every bit of space it can provide and finding a way to heat it
3) What is the local demographic? Will we find other families in the area? With few jobs, how do folks get by?

Income for us will probably involve a lot of working remotely for me. Which means satellite internet if there is no terrestrial broadband there (and the places I'm looking I'd be amazed if there is). But, I'm pretty handy, so odd jobs would probably help out too.

We're also looking in Idaho, but seems like the land I'm finding is more ideal in Montana, mainly because of finding springs and stuff on it.

[GaryS61]

My .02$ worth, you are looking in the wrong part of Montana. You can buy 20 A of irrigated land with a few out buildings a fixeruper house near Chinook Montana on the Milk River for about 120K unless it has sold. You have a far better chance of making a go of it with the irrigation and could grow just about what ever you plant. Climate is much better than where you are looking. You can not eat the view in the Mountains. Consider looking between Havre and Glasgow on the Milk River, between Billings and Glendive on Yellowstone River, and along the Musselshell River East of White Sulpher Spings to an around the Round Up area. Also along the Big Horn River between Hardin and its end at Custer. All of these are a much better choice, try to get about a 40A place and you should be able to make it work, you have saleable skills that will help a lot. Hint the further out from a bigger town the cheaper the place will be. I almost got a homestead near Wagner Montana on the Milk River and it was a homesteaders dream....... price was right buildings for coops, corrals, barn, shop, house all were in place, irrigated land long growing season for Montana etc.

GS

[GaryS61]

One more thing to consider is going nearer a city on any of the rivers I listed and getting a town..er job for either you or your wife to supplement the homestead. Good luck we sure love our little piece of Montana. We have a fabulous view it just isn't mountains at least from our house.... but from the back 80A we can see the Bears Paw Mountains about 50 miles South and away and to the East and West we can see for 200 miles each way. PM me if you need help finding a place

[Molly Mckee]

"2) You guys say you can't count on feeding yourself from a garden -- Yeah, the growing season is quite short. But if it's well managed w/ permaculture methods I would think you could make a very significant dent, even there, no? Sounds like a huge greenhouse(s) is in order, making use of every bit of space it can provide and finding a way to heat it"

Permaculture does not work too well in dryer, colder climates. At elevation, in MT or ID you will have both. Our ex-neighbor tried it and not only lost everything but did a huge amount of damage to the land.

Greenhouse growing at elevation is going to be very expensive, not only because you may have windy conditions which will require a substantial greenhouse but the heating will cost plenty. I think buying organic from the store would be cheaper.

Take the MT water rights into consideration when you look at property. You may have the water on your property but you may not be able to use it or as much as you want. Here in the mountains the phone and internet signals very from place to place. If you need it for work, be sure the property you are looking at has it available. If there is no power and you want it be certain the cost of extending it. It can cost thousands of dollars if you have to run power very far.

[Bret]

Learning from this thread. I tell people that when I step into my old block milk house, now the "line shack", that am suddenly in the middle of Montana. I have never been to Montana.

[SFM in KY]

I grew up on a ranch in south/central MT, elevation about 4000' and have seen snow on the ground every month of the year except July and August and have seen snow in the mountains in July. Not always and not usual, but it can happen. My grandparents homesteaded the original part of the ranch, raised a big garden and fed the family from it, 60 miles from the nearest town and two days by team and wagon when they arrived there to homestead.

It can be done. That said, there is a very short growing season, 90 days is the best you can expect so your garden produce is going to be limited to quick maturing crops and many of them will have to be started well before they can be planted outdoors. (My grandmother had a big south-facing enclosed porch where she started her seedlings).

I don't know what kind of acreage you're looking at or if you plan on any livestock, but in our area, which was a very good grazing area for MT we figured 20 acres per cow/calf pair for summer grazing, from May lst to October lst ... and that was in hills, not mountains, and not a lot of tree cover. Mountain country is not going to have nearly as much grass for grazing. That area is mountain country, will likely be heavily timbered, thin soil and the terrain steep. Also check very closely on water rights for any place you are looking at as you may not have unlimited access to any creek that crosses the property. Springs, yes ... creeks not necessarily. Gardens need to be watered, rainfall is definitely not adequate. Cost of winter heating needs to be considered and there can be significant periods of power outages in the winter. Depending on the specific area, you may not have cell phone service.

You will absolutely need a 4x4, with chains to be reasonably sure of year around access. I had a 4 x 4 Dodge diesel pickup, with chains for all four and there were times I needed them. Depending on where you are and how far off the county roads, you may have to arrange for private road clearing during the winter months.

That said, I'd gladly be back in MT without a second thought if it were possible.

[sisterpine]

Western Montana is really pretty, gets considerable snow and has the shortest growing season I ever dealt with. I lived near Deer Lodge at 7K feet and could only grow anything in a green house and even then it was tough to get tomatoes to ripen before frost. Green beans, corn and peas did we as did cauliflower and broccoli, squashes of all kinds that could stand the summer heat. At 7K feet we almost always had 3 FEET of snow on the ground by this part of winter and most of the snow seems to come in Feb Mar April. Before Christmas we could no longer drive our SUV or Truck to our stead and had to snowmobile from 7 or so miles away for work and supplies etc. We cut at least 10 cords of wood a year as we heated the cabin and two workshops. Had to keep the solar batteries from freezing as well. Lots of work to live like that. Wonderfully hard with a partner...no so good alone. Wishing you the best.

[Marcia in MT]

Have you ever grown anything in a greenhouse? There is lots of good information about using one year around: check out Eliot Coleman's books.

There's everything from a simple cold frame to a fully functional greenhouse; they can be simple to quite complex. And you don't want to know what my heating bills are running this winter for ours!

[anbro]

Originally Posted by Molly Mckee

"2) You guys say you can't count on feeding yourself from a garden -- Yeah, the growing season is quite short. But if it's well managed w/ permaculture methods I would think you could make a very significant dent, even there, no? Sounds like a huge greenhouse(s) is in order, making use of every bit of space it can provide and finding a way to heat it"

Permaculture does not work too well in dryer, colder climates. At elevation, in MT or ID you will have both. Our ex-neighbor tried it and not only lost everything but did a huge amount of damage to the land.

I think the point of permaculture is to not damage the land... I can't help but wonder what he did. Interesting.

Greenhouse growing at elevation is going to be very expensive, not only because you may have windy conditions which will require a substantial greenhouse but the heating will cost plenty. I think buying organic from the store would be cheaper.

Well, the reality is these properties aren't grid tied anyway so we'd be talking about combining classic ideas with unorthodox ideas for greenhouse heating I guess. I've read about folks succeeding at this, but I have a lot to learn to succeed at it myself, definitely no question there.

However, zone 4 seems to support quite a bit of the food we eat anyway. I see lots of garden threads from folks in higher altitude montana on other forums; it kinda sounds like the consensus here is that it's not a good idea though.

Take the MT water rights into consideration when you look at property. You may have the water on your property but you may not be able to use it or as much as you want. Here in the mountains the phone and internet signals very from place to place. If you need it for work, be sure the property you are looking at has it available. If there is no power and you want it be certain the cost of extending it. It can cost thousands of dollars if you have to run power very far.

Yeah, definitely agree there. It looks like from what I've read I can develop a spring and take up to 35gpm and I think it was 10AC-ft without any flack. Of course the obvious question is how much the springs in question actually put out and I highly doubt it's 35gpm. Be lucky if it's 3.

[anbro]

Originally Posted by SFM in KY

I grew up on a ranch in south/central MT, elevation about 4000' and have seen snow on the ground every month of the year except July and August and have seen snow in the mountains in July. Not always and not usual, but it can happen. My grandparents homesteaded the original part of the ranch, raised a big garden and fed the family from it, 60 miles from the nearest town and two days by team and wagon when they arrived there to homestead.

It can be done. That said, there is a very short growing season, 90 days is the best you can expect so your garden produce is going to be limited to quick maturing crops and many of them will have to be started well before they can be planted outdoors. (My grandmother had a big south-facing enclosed porch where she started her seedlings).

I was figuring it would end up needing a greenhouse attached to the heated home (I have some interesting earthship style ideas there) which I would build to collect as much solar energy passively as possible. The seeds would have to be started there, of course. Then outside have greenhouses to transplant to, maybe cold frame or maybe raised beds, depending on the soil. Obviously pollination has to be addressed.

I don't know what kind of acreage you're looking at or if you plan on any livestock, but in our area, which was a very good grazing area for MT we figured 20 acres per cow/calf pair for summer grazing, from May lst to October lst ... and that was in hills, not mountains, and not a lot of tree cover. Mountain country is not going to have nearly as much grass for grazing. That area is mountain country, will likely be heavily timbered, thin soil and the terrain steep. Also check very closely on water rights for any place you are looking at as you may not have unlimited access to any creek that crosses the property. Springs, yes ... creeks not necessarily. Gardens need to be watered, rainfall is definitely not adequate. Cost of winter heating needs to be considered and there can be significant periods of power outages in the winter. Depending on the specific area, you may not have cell phone service.

Cows not immediately likely although I'd consider a steer eventually if it supported it, probably chickens, maybe pigs, goats. Not biting all this off at once, ya know?

I prefer the timber personally; not a fan of the plains. Plus timber has other benefits (lumber, firewood). Ideally I'd like to have a woodlot that I could provide heat from, but I do understand that you can get a wood heat permit for the national forest to harvest up to 12 cords of firewood per year, which might be helpful as a supplement. I would heat with wood almost certainly.

I figured with creeks I won't be able to use the water although if there were enough head I'd totally use energy from it in the form of hydroelectric.

The property in question isn't on grid anyway so we'd have solar + generator.

You will absolutely need a 4x4, with chains to be reasonably sure of year around access. I had a 4 x 4 Dodge diesel pickup, with chains for all four and there were times I needed them. Depending on where you are and how far off the county roads, you may have to arrange for private road clearing during the winter months.

4x4 w/chains is no problem. I know it's probably more snow than even I had as a kid, but I grew up in eastern washington and did the 'get snowed in' thing lots of times with my family.

That said, I'd gladly be back in MT without a second thought if it were possible.

Kinda seems like this is a common consensus too, "it's hard, maybe impossible, but I love it there".

[anbro]

Originally Posted by sisterpine

Western Montana is really pretty, gets considerable snow and has the shortest growing season I ever dealt with. I lived near Deer Lodge at 7K feet and could only grow anything in a green house and even then it was tough to get tomatoes to ripen before frost. Green beans, corn and peas did we as did cauliflower and broccoli, squashes of all kinds that could stand the summer heat. At 7K feet we almost always had 3 FEET of snow on the ground by this part of winter and most of the snow seems to come in Feb Mar April. Before Christmas we could no longer drive our SUV or Truck to our stead and had to snowmobile from 7 or so miles away for work and supplies etc. We cut at least 10 cords of wood a year as we heated the cabin and two workshops. Had to keep the solar batteries from freezing as well. Lots of work to live like that. Wonderfully hard with a partner...no so good alone. Wishing you the best.

Ahh... snow. I love it and miss it so much. I also know from experience it can be a pain sometimes, but I have always loved the challenges it posed.

[Molly Mckee]

If you are interested in any kind of" earthship" or underground housing, you may have problems in some areas of the mountains. The topsoil is often thin, followed by decomposed granite that is not stable and granite is often close to the surface. We had to move our house when we went to put in the foundation--it was change the plans, blast or very expensive equipment. We are at 3000 ft on a ridge.

Be very careful in choosing your land. It might be a good idea to rent in the area if possible before putting the time, money, and effort into a homestead that won't be what you want it to be. It sounds like you are interested in land that could be hard to work with, or very expensive or both. Having said that, we would rather be in MT.

[Lupine]

Is anyone familiar with--or from--Sanders County? My sister lives there, and we're determined to make the move this Fall. (Actually, anywhere between Bonner's Ferry/Sandpoint, ID to Plains, MT)

I haven't seen a lot of hoop houses/high-tunnels out there, but if we get a place with enough protection from the winds, that's what we plan to try. We're looking for a drop-dead min. 5 acres, ideally 20+, but right now it seems like there are limited offerings in between those sizes. Of course, we need to get this place in town sold first, before we even dare to seriously look.