Please review my heat plans for all electric home

[imautoparts]

Hi all,

I'm buying a 1955 1250 sq foot open-plan ranch. Note: All doorways have doors but the one leading into the kitchen. Our goal is to have heat if the power is out, and to minimize annual fuel/electric costs.

We're in Northern Indiana, and I want to have a combination of standard electric/radiant for most weather, and supplemental propane/woodstove for when it gets to -10.

Here is the proposed heat plan. PH = direct-vent propane radiant (through wall venting), RP = solid state radiant, ceiling mounted, CRP is cove-mounted radiant, red lines are baseboards. All electric is 220V for heat - we have a brand new 200 amp load center.


Comments, suggestions and all other input very welcome. This is a plan we intend to install Summer 2014. We are in no hurry at all.

[Nimrod]

I hope you are independently wealthy. I would not build a house with electricity as the primary heat.

http://www.nationalreview.com/campai...y-skyrocketing

Otherwise, your plan seems to be to keep everything at a base temp and heat the areas being used as needed. Good plan.

[imautoparts]

Originally Posted by Nimrod

I hope you are independently wealthy. I would not build a house with electricity as the primary heat.

http://www.nationalreview.com/campai...y-skyrocketing

Otherwise, your plan seems to be to keep everything at a base temp and heat the areas being used as needed. Good plan.

I don't like to disregard someone's opinion, but the National Review is an Obama bashing internet blog with foil-hat level conspiracy leanings. I did read the article, and it is simply not true.. If you do any independent research at all you will see there is massive downward pressure on electric rates due to the massive amount of renewable coming online.

I'd like to keep the thread on track please. Does anyone have an opinion on the heating layout I've proposed?

[Studhauler]

Once you add the propane heaters, you can put the electric heat on an off-peak, if they offer it in your area. Off-peak is about half the rate of your existing metered electricity.

[imautoparts]

Thanks - I don't know about off-peak. I think also they can give you a break if you are willing to get reduced service during summer peak load.

That is no problem for us - we're using a whole-house fan and evaporative cooling the first year to see how that works out.

[dizzy]

Don't have any advice to offer, but my house, w/the exception of the wood stove and my clothes line is 100% electric. My electric bill is LOWER than many people who have gas, oil or whatever.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Good grief and pollywogs. Electric heat? Most expensive, least efficient. Horrible idea if the power goes out, too.

Here's another source of info:
http://energy.gov/public-services/ho...g/home-heating

You do understand that the electricity is generated by burning something else somewhere else, then transmitted to you? Not an efficient system.

[TnAndy]

Ceiling electric heat is the sorriest form of electric heat they ever came up with. Your head is hot while your feet freeze.

I didn't read the article on electric rates, but your statement that rates are going down to to massive amounts of renewables is simply not true. Coal fired plants are being phased out due to environment concerns, and being replaced with natural gas.

Alternative energies, once thought to be the savior, are now falling out of favor many places because the power companies can't deal with the varied input...cloud passes over, solar input goes to pot.....sun shines bright between 9 and 3, but high demand is 7am to 9am, and 5pm to 9pm. Wind stops blowing, and input dies. Power engineers hate it, and are winning the war inside the power companies.

[imautoparts]

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

Good grief and pollywogs. Electric heat? Most expensive, least efficient. Horrible idea if the power goes out, too.

Here's another source of info:
http://energy.gov/public-services/ho...g/home-heating

You do understand that the electricity is generated by burning something else somewhere else, then transmitted to you? Not an efficient system.

I'm prejudiced - my Dad was a reddy-kilowatt all electric builder for 40 years till he retired in 1985.

My home now is a 2500 square foot house with 100% ceiling radiant heat, 5 bedrooms, four baths, wet bar and mud room sink. We have two giant hot water heaters and we keep it toasty in the winter. It was built in 1968 and we have lost two ceilings - once due to a plumbing leak upstairs, and I just lost my kitchen due to a thermostat failure/overheat this year. 44 years is not a bad lifecycle considering a typical price to repair or replace any other type of system every 20 years.

I should have posted this earlier - we are in the green band in NE Indiana.



Electric last year was $240 a month (averaged). Typically it is around $210, but we had two people extra living with us all year. We live in a very expensive area for electricity - our rates are 33% higher than neighboring Ohio utilities.

The new 10 pound 24X48 and 24X65 solid state ceiling panels resolve both efficiency (30% more efficient than even a current embedded ceiling radiant), like the embedded ceilings they last life of the structure, and they are very very cheap (under $300 per panel). That isn't exactly expensive, especially when simply adding gas heat to our existing AC upstairs and down has been quoted at over $18,000 (we need to do new cut ins upstairs as the existing AC utilizes a whole house fan as the blower).

I just wish we had higher ceilings in this house we are buying - with the 8' ceilings we can't really use ceiling radiant unless it is coved in smaller rooms, or has a window to reflect off of. Radiant heat reflects with near 100% efficiency (acts like a mirror) off glass.

[arabian knight]

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

Good grief and pollywogs. Electric heat? Most expensive, least efficient. Horrible idea if the power goes out, too.

Here's another source of info:
http://energy.gov/public-services/ho...g/home-heating

You do understand that the electricity is generated by burning something else somewhere else, then transmitted to you? Not an efficient system.

In this day in age I would never ever building a home for heating with 100% electric. The way electric rates are going up and up and up and with this government trying to do bad things it is ridiculous to even THIINK about such a thing. And ANYTHING that is used that changes something into something else, that is Electric Into Heat. You are changing one type of energy into another one. You NEVER want to Change a form of energy into another form. If you do, it costs Hard Bucks. Expensive bucks at that.
Changing one form of energy into another type is nothing but expensive. And to do a 100% electric home, geesh electric goes out and you have NOTHING. Electricity is no longer Penny Cheap.

[Danaus29]

Electricity is bad, wah wah, blah blah blah. My house is all electric and when I use the electric exclusively it costs less per month in winter than others in this area who heat with anything other than wood. BTW, the op said buying not building. As in house and baseboard heat are existing.

As for the plan, get rid of the ceiling mounted radiant heat. It will never keep the floor warm. Same with the radiant panel in the bath. The wood stove should be in a more open area, where you have planned it's blocked by a close wall. Scoot it closer to the outer corner and get a thermal fan to set on top. You do need heat in the bathroom. Either a small heater or a radiant floor system is the way I would go.

Why wait until the temps are -10F before using the wood stove? Keep a few cords on hand in case the electric goes out.

Add insulation as much as and where possible. Seal up cracks around the windows and doors. That helps more than just about anything.

[Alice In TX/MO]

This thread reminds me of something that we witnessed.

Hubby is a petroleum engineer, and he worked in the North Sea on semi-submersible drilling rigs years ago. One of the other engineers was dating a local girl. At a nice dinner one night, she spouted off about how she didn't understand the big deal about drilling for oil. "We have electricity." Um.... yeah. Right.

As mentioned above, any time you change one form of energy to another, you lose. Coal has to be mined and trucked and burned to generate electricity which is then converted to heat. Petroleum has to be explored for, drilled, piped, refined, transported, burned to generate electricity, etc.

Electricity is NOT efficient.

Here's a link to a pretty good graphic about energy loss when coal is used as the source:
http://www.energyliteracy.com/?p=235

[andyd2023]

OK "Imautoparts" so you bought the house? Either way I think you have a well thought out plan.
Adding propane and wood heat can help things a lot. My advice ( YMMV) With wood heat, if you can vent for outside combustion air. keep the chimneys as simple as possible. Use fans to move air over the wood stove. ( except when the power is out....) Used seasoned firewood!!
For propane the most efficient are the non-vented heaters, but watch out for C02 build up and humidity. ( C02 alarm? ) I heat with Wood and a propane/heat pump set up. I also live in Texas
Remember every dollar you invest in insulation, is a dollar that saves you money!
Andrew

[Alice In TX/MO]

We've had an Earth Stove wood heater in our home since 1979. It has never gone out or had to be replaced. We've never had to purchase wood. Yes, we've spent some money on fuel for the truck hauling firewood home and for a chain saw or two. Hubby was actually using his favorite chain saw today; he's had it 31 years.

[rambler]

Seems complicated to have 3 sources of heat, certainly understand 2.

Here, electric would seem expensive and long term, unstable.

The past year, lp has become in very short supply in fall and this winter. Next year, they will reroute a second pipeline running the 'wrong' way and create an even bigger artificial shortage here locally.

Wood is a lot of work that becomes more difficult as you age.

So, perhaps if you can afford it, the 3 different sources is a fine idea.

For efficiency, a ground loop heat pump is the way to go, big startup cost tho. Wood as a backup or supplemental heat as a person wishes seems like a good thing too.

Paul

[imautoparts]

I appreciate all the feedback.

Here is a final plan for the home, and you will notice I've taken the forum's advice and relocated the wood stove to a central spot. Each red rectangle is a radiant panel, each line is an existing baseboard that will be replaced/retained.



I'm also thinking of two propane supplemental/super cold weather heaters. They are the red squares on the living room wall and the bedroom wall. - they only cost around $200, and they might save me some serious headaches especially if we do experience any kind of lengthy power outage.

Anybody know the basic guidelines for locating a propane tank on a property?

[Alice In TX/MO]

In my location, it has to be 20 feet from any exterior wall.

[Awnry Abe]

Looks like a lot of folks read the subject line and went straight to offering an opinion without reading the OP. (I am very frequently guilty same.)

Our house was newly constructed in 2011. We went with a similar approach. Our sources of heat include:

Electric heat pump w/ propane set to kick in down in the chilly temps.
Electric heated ceramic tile floors. (we don't have any wall-to-wall carpet).
High-effeciency wood stove
A propane fireplace
Lots of large south-facing windows.

Our propane usage is neglegible. Our electric bills in the winter are about the same as sprint and fall. We take our biggest hit when we need to cool, and that isn't really high comparatively. The choice to go with large south-facing windows was probably the best move. We plopped some $$$ into really good blinds so the A/C could keep up in the summer. As long as we aren't lazy about raising and lowering them, we collect a great deal of free heat everyday as it passes from the east to the west.

I don't know what a radiant panel is, but I imagine it is similar in concept to our heated tile floors. Our house feels so comfortable on most days that are sunny that the furnace doesn't even run. In fact, it wasn't installed properly, and we weren't aware that it wasn't even working until my mom house sat last February and didn't know how to turn the floor mats on.

In short, I think you have a good plan.

[badlander]

That house after your modifications still doesn't look like an open floor plan. I would propose removing several more of your walls. Our bedrooms have wide doorways that face the wood stove. your bedrooms are going to be mighty cold in the winter running wood. When you have an inevitable power failure due to heavy wind, snow or ice and find yourself depending on your stove for heat, you are going to have a lot of folks sleeping in the living room in order to keep warm. Even with our bedrooms directly off the main open living area, they get mighty chilly by morning once the fire has died down overnight.

How many BTUs is your wood stove capable of producing? You might find that one capable of heating your whole house will have the living room intolerably hot while the rest of the house is chilled unless you have a way of moving the heat around, especially with a hall way and bedrooms that are away from the main living area. Our EPA stove is rated at 75,000 btu, and will heat our 1200 foot downstairs to 80 degrees when it is really cranking. We have another 100 or so square feet upstairs that it will also warm comfortably during the day if we leave the door open.

Our old home BHS (before homesteading) was a ranch style home with a similar layout. We oft times talked about putting in a wood burner for emergency and supplemental heating and abandoned the idea due to the realization that we wouldn't be able to heat the back of the house due to the closed floor plan.

I didn't read if you had a ready source of wood on your property. Now is the time to cut some trees for next seasons heat.

[mnn2501]

Radiant heat from the ceiling in Indiana -- sorry but that's the worst plan I have ever heard.
You're going to be very sorry if you do that.