Frozen pipes in unheated crawlspace.

superduty5.9 · #1 01/03/14, 07:59 AM

I have only lived in the house for 8 months. House is 11yrs old. Everything has been good so far untill last night when it dropped to *3F in NW Ohio. I talked to the guy who drilled the well and hooked up the water. The 1" black plastic water line come through the foundation on one end of the house and lays on the gravel floor and runs to almost the other end of the house to the pressure tank. Then back almost the entire length of the house to the main line into the house with a shut off. The supply pipe is not insulated. The crawlspace is unheated but the floor is insulated so I don't think any of the pipes inside the houe is the problem. I closed and insulated the vents a month ago. The guy who installed this said he has done hundreds of homes this way and has never had a problem with the pipes freezing.

I moved from an old farm house where the pipes froze all the time. When we bought this house I thought this problem was over. I would like to permanentally solve this problem if at all possible. I was thinking of buying some 1" blue rigid board insulation and cutting it in strips. Then hollow out the inside for the pipes to lay then sandwiching two pieces together to make a 2" layer of insulation. I would need about 120' to do all the pipe. My problem is will insulating the pipes prevent the freezing by itself or do I need a heat tape too? I think just insulating without heat would only work to a certain temp and then after that it would make it worse. Any ideas? Thanks James

karenp · #2 01/03/14, 08:05 AM

we have a light on a switch, put a heat lamp bulb in and just reach in the access to turn it on when it gets cold. we never had it freeze, but we are a little warmer (Delaware).

hercsmama · #3 01/03/14, 08:13 AM

Dh is a plumber. when we bought our place he went into the crawlspace and wrapped every pipe he saw with heat tape, then put that foam pipe insulation on top, then wrapped them again.
Our duct work runs under the house, in the crawl space, but we are using wood heat, so not much warming under there.
So far our lowest temp was 2* with a windchill of -35, and we have had no problems at all. HTH.

superduty5.9 · #4 01/03/14, 08:13 AM

I wondered about a heat lamp too. I think the previous owners may have done that. My crawl space is 30'x80'. I wonder how effective a heat lamp would be in such a big space. Thanks very much for your reply.

brosil · #5 01/03/14, 08:14 AM

I'd get an electric heater in the crawl space until you get some insulation on the pipes. The heat tapes come with thermostats so they don't activate until about 36 degrees. It's worth running them, in my opinion.

DaleK · #6 01/03/14, 08:34 AM

Can you move the pressure tank?

superduty5.9 · #7 01/03/14, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaleK

Can you move the pressure tank?

I could move it and I wondered why it was like that in the first place. The guy who installed it said he always puts the tank near the access door which is at opposite end of house where water line come into foundation. If I moved it to the other end I could shorten my electric supply to the pressure switch by about 60-70' and my water supply by about 120-140' but then if there was a problem I would have to crawl almost the entire length of the house to get to pressure tank. I would do this if I knew for sure it would work. Thanks for the reply.

superduty5.9 · #8 01/03/14, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brosil

I'd get an electric heater in the crawl space until you get some insulation on the pipes. The heat tapes come with thermostats so they don't activate until about 36 degrees. It's worth running them, in my opinion.

Would heat tape work on plastic pipe? do they make them in 120' lengths? I bought one years ago and for a 6' heat tape it was like $28. I would do it if it would work in my application. Thanks for the reply.

fishhead · #9 01/03/14, 08:56 AM

Could you move the pressure tank to shorten the line and then put an access door on that end of the house?

I would insulate the lines with pipe insulation. It's fairly cheap and easy to use. I have it on my lines in the basement to keep the hot water hot and the cold water lines from sweating in the summer.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/MD-Buildi..._src=17588969#

A heat lamp won't add any significant heat to such a large space.

You could also bury any exposed lines in the crawl space. As long as the ground is dry you could still insulate the pipe with pipe insulation.

Allen W · #10 01/03/14, 09:13 AM

Are the lines all frozen or just spots? Dad had trouble with water freezing untill he found ad plugged a gap near the pipes. If you insulate the lines can you do them together or would you have to do them sepertly?

superduty5.9 · #11 01/03/14, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishhead

Could you move the pressure tank to shorten the line and then put an access door on that end of the house?

I could but that would involve block work and a new door. Maybe something for this summer.
I would insulate the lines with pipe insulation. It's fairly cheap and easy to use. I have it on my lines in the basement to keep the hot water hot and the cold water lines from sweating in the summer.

Insulating does not add heat just prevents less heat loss. Do you think that just pipe insulation would prevent frozen pipes in *0 - *-10 weather?
http://www.homedepot.com/p/MD-Buildi..._src=17588969#

A heat lamp won't add any significant heat to such a large space.

You could also bury any exposed lines in the crawl space. As long as the ground is dry you could still insulate the pipe with pipe insulation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allen W

Are the lines all frozen or just spots? Dad had trouble with water freezing untill he found ad plugged a gap near the pipes. If you insulate the lines can you do them together or would you have to do them sepertly?

Not sure about how much is frozen. I will investigate after work. Thanks for the replys!

Harry Chickpea · #12 01/03/14, 01:04 PM

Heat tape is generally in the six foot range, but there is a trick. Put the heat tape around the pipe at the lowest spot. If you need to angle the pipe up a little, do it. The warmed water will rise in the pipe and the cold water sink to where it can be warmed.
You can extend the effectiveness of heat tape with that trick and insulation by a number of feet.

watcher · #13 01/03/14, 02:20 PM

A couple of ideas. In one house I lived in we wired up several heat lamps, each placed near where the water lines came close to the foundation, and put them on a switch. When really cold weather was called for we'd check to make sure there was nothing near the lamps and turn the switch on.

I lived in another house where things froze under the house we rented big forced air kerosene heater and stuck it in the crawl space door to thaw things out.

Waterwheel Farm · #14 01/03/14, 03:17 PM

I used similar to this (see link)underneath an uninsulated old house trailer and it never did freeze up. You just cut it to length, attached a quality male electric plug on one end, and tape up the other end. They make different wattage ratings of heat trace, you'd probably just need the lowest for home. I did mine on the cheap and just plugged it in when I knew temps were gonna be cold. I did eventually hook it up to a thermostat. I just taped it to the line and it never froze, but I also eventually added that black foam tube insulation to it as I gathered a few bucks. Good luck, I've felt your pain.

http://www.heatingelementsplus.com/1...tml?language=1

Pony · #15 01/03/14, 04:14 PM

We've had great success with heat tape, and yes, even on plastic pipes.

The stuff is easy to use, inexpensive, and can buy you more planning time if you decide to relocate your tank.

Ozarks Tom · #16 01/03/14, 05:12 PM

The well guy was just making it easy on himself to service the tank, and possibly to charge the original owner for more pipe. Move the tank, use heat tape and insulation. Never worry about it again.

fishhead · #17 01/03/14, 05:20 PM

Yeah the block work and new door sounds like summer work.

Yes the insulation would only hold existing heat in the lines. If you got the next larger size it would fit over most of the pipe diameter and the heat tape.

It it's -10 in the crawl space I would try to figure out a way to close it up during the winter. That should raise the temperature up a bit, maybe even close to freezing.

Another summer job might be to glue 2" blue styrofoam to the blocks on the outside. That would help hold the ground heat where it's needed. Before gluing I would cover the face of the insulation with "facing cement" to make it safe from UV breakdown. I did that and it's a lot easier to do with it lying flat on a saw horse compared to vertical next to the ground.

fishhead · #18 01/03/14, 05:27 PM

Here's a 100 footer. http://www.menards.com/main/plumbing...105-c-8588.htm

I would attach it zip ties to get the maximum distance as opposed to twisting it around the pipe.

jwal10 · #19 01/03/14, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishhead

Here's a 100 footer. http://www.menards.com/main/plumbing...105-c-8588.htm

I would attach it zip ties to get the maximum distance as opposed to twisting it around the pipe.

This and pipe wrap. May need a heat lamp turned toward the pressure tank. Many time the smaller orfices and pipes freeze all the way through (solid) first....James

superduty5.9 · #20 01/03/14, 08:25 PM

Thanks guys for all the replys. I got home from work late and to my suprise ( wife didn't text me to let me know the pipe thawed out). I did crawl under there to check on possible leaks. No leaks!! I used my infared thermometer to check how cold the pipes are. Coming through the foundation *34. Pipe laying on the ground *26-*28. Pressure tank and pipes in that area *30. On the 3/4" line coming out of pressure tank to house supply they strapped it up to the bottom of the floor and it was a nice warm *36. Headed to Lowes or HD tomorrow to get some supplies.