Suit or Walk Away?

Tango · #1 12/12/13, 10:31 AM

Hi Ya'll,
Been a while since I last checked in. I've walked into a mess here and I am seeking advice. I purchased 10.3 acres in Tennessee in July. The land was heavily overgrown with wild blackberries and I couldn't get to most of it. I saw several outbuildings that were stuffed with garbage and one large shop that was falling down and also loaded with junk. I knew the property needed work.
1) The deal maker was it supposedly had a pond, but the area was so overgrown, I couldn't walk near where it supposedly was. Turned out there was no pond. Only a depression at the bottom of two slopes where rainwater could collect.
2) After hiring a bulldozer company to tear down and haul away dilapidated buildings and trash and clearing the front of the property, I saw there was no pond and had one dug due to the drainage problems I was discovering. SO now there is a large beautiful pond. As the property started getting cleared I saw there was no end to the garbage including broken glass, and old tires everywhere. The more I cleared, the more trash I found.
3) Some of the trash I can gather by hand over the next few years so I kept thinking, it would be okay even though it was way more than I had ever considered.
4)During one of the first walks into the middle of the property, I found what appeared to be an area where a bulldozer threw in mounds of junk, maybe an old home and old trailers into a swale that probably is a water route in heavy rain. It is uncovered, about 20 feet deep to the top of the trash and potentially dangerous for any livestock so my thought of another cow or a small herd of dairy goats is out of the question for now.
5) The neighbors tell me this used to be a junkyard at one point - or probably more correct to say a "collector" lived here in the distant past.
6)The seller told me he had never walked the property and he was selling as is. I thought there might be something here since I couldnt walk the whole property so I had the closing attorney add that the seller didn't know what "as is" was, thinking the seller was being honest with me. He told me there used to be a mechanic shop here- the large falling down building- At the time I was thinking of my own liability if there were stored tanks underground beneath the shop but I no longer think the seller was honest with me.
7) All of this has happened in a short time. I was building a cabin here while I kept uncovering trash, being the optimist I used to be, I thought it would be okay, but I've walked the whole parcel now and I don't think I can manage to clean this place up. It will take years before I can bring livestock here.
8) The real estate ad which brought me here from out of state painted a very deceptive picture of the property and I later learned that not only did the seller claim never to have walked the property, the agent who wrote the ad had never walked the property either.
9) The seller's disclosure mentioned nothing about even the visible trash and the seller had never lived here but his son had.

I've never been involved in litigation or a lawsuit, so I don't know about them at all. I don't know if the above is cause for a lawsuit or if it is just food for anger and frustration. I am thinking of three options right now:
1) Sue the seller for a partial return of selling price to cover half the expenses of the cleanup (which is nearly $10k right now) I would use proceeds to finish clean up.
2) Sell by owner with owner financing being up front about the condition of the property (it is all out in the open now) and maybe being able to recover my money and allow a young couple to start a life on 10 acres with a brand new small cabin. I can get my money back but will take years this way so will have to live with my family for a few years which is okay.
3) Put on market and maybe not get all my money back but walk away and start over.

All the above are possible. I did confront the real estate company but didn't do anything other than tell them their ad was deceptive and their seller must have known the real conditions here.

If I go the route of #2 above, I would be asking for a substantial down payment and checking credit - though accepting a poorer credit rating- so that I wouldn't be stuck with more problems.

What say ya'll? Any advice? Thanks.

Bret · #2 12/12/13, 10:43 AM

Keep going. Make it better for you and next person. See the value that is there. Find shortcuts for the trash. Handle each thing once. Multiply yourself. Get help and mix in fun stuff. Get someone to harvest the scrap and ask to keep a little of the cash to keep your chainsaw full. Enjoy the exercise. Think only progress and happy thoughts.

mnn2501 · #3 12/12/13, 10:49 AM

You bought the property on an 'as is ' basis after the owner told you he had not been able to walk the property, and you admitted that in the beginning you could not walk the property either so obviously the guy was not lying to you.
There is a principle involved 'caveat emptor' that's been around for a couple thousand years - it translates into "Let the buyer beware"

There is no lawsuit here however if it was used as a dump there may be federal cleanup money available HOWEVER there will be many federal regulations involved in the clean up and eventual land use allowed and I certainly would not want to go down that path myself.

Sounds to me that you did not do your 'due diligence' and now you have buyers remorse. Sorry, but this is on you, not the past seller.
Either deal with it or sell the property 'as is' disclosing what you know about the property. I doubt you'll even come close to breaking even, but you might be able to dump the property.

am1too · #4 12/12/13, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tango

Hi Ya'll,
Been a while since I last checked in. I've walked into a mess here and I am seeking advice. I purchased 10.3 acres in Tennessee in July. The land was heavily overgrown with wild blackberries and I couldn't get to most of it. I saw several outbuildings that were stuffed with garbage and one large shop that was falling down and also loaded with junk. I knew the property needed work.
1) The deal maker was it supposedly had a pond, but the area was so overgrown, I couldn't walk near where it supposedly was. Turned out there was no pond. Only a depression at the bottom of two slopes where rainwater could collect.
2) After hiring a bulldozer company to tear down and haul away dilapidated buildings and trash and clearing the front of the property, I saw there was no pond and had one dug due to the drainage problems I was discovering. SO now there is a large beautiful pond. As the property started getting cleared I saw there was no end to the garbage including broken glass, and old tires everywhere. The more I cleared, the more trash I found.
3) Some of the trash I can gather by hand over the next few years so I kept thinking, it would be okay even though it was way more than I had ever considered.
4)During one of the first walks into the middle of the property, I found what appeared to be an area where a bulldozer threw in mounds of junk, maybe an old home and old trailers into a swale that probably is a water route in heavy rain. It is uncovered, about 20 feet deep to the top of the trash and potentially dangerous for any livestock so my thought of another cow or a small herd of dairy goats is out of the question for now.
5) The neighbors tell me this used to be a junkyard at one point - or probably more correct to say a "collector" lived here in the distant past.
6)The seller told me he had never walked the property and he was selling as is. I thought there might be something here since I couldnt walk the whole property so I had the closing attorney add that the seller didn't know what "as is" was, thinking the seller was being honest with me. He told me there used to be a mechanic shop here- the large falling down building- At the time I was thinking of my own liability if there were stored tanks underground beneath the shop but I no longer think the seller was honest with me.
7) All of this has happened in a short time. I was building a cabin here while I kept uncovering trash, being the optimist I used to be, I thought it would be okay, but I've walked the whole parcel now and I don't think I can manage to clean this place up. It will take years before I can bring livestock here.
8) The real estate ad which brought me here from out of state painted a very deceptive picture of the property and I later learned that not only did the seller claim never to have walked the property, the agent who wrote the ad had never walked the property either.
9) The seller's disclosure mentioned nothing about even the visible trash and the seller had never lived here but his son had.

I've never been involved in litigation or a lawsuit, so I don't know about them at all. I don't know if the above is cause for a lawsuit or if it is just food for anger and frustration. I am thinking of three options right now:
1) Sue the seller for a partial return of selling price to cover half the expenses of the cleanup (which is nearly $10k right now) I would use proceeds to finish clean up.
2) Sell by owner with owner financing being up front about the condition of the property (it is all out in the open now) and maybe being able to recover my money and allow a young couple to start a life on 10 acres with a brand new small cabin. I can get my money back but will take years this way so will have to live with my family for a few years which is okay.
3) Put on market and maybe not get all my money back but walk away and start over.

All the above are possible. I did confront the real estate company but didn't do anything other than tell them their ad was deceptive and their seller must have known the real conditions here.

If I go the route of #2 above, I would be asking for a substantial down payment and checking credit - though accepting a poorer credit rating- so that I wouldn't be stuck with more problems.

What say ya'll? Any advice? Thanks.

You might consider fraud by the real estate agency. Stuff like this is all to uncommon. I have a neighbor who has been trying to sell a property for 20 years with non repairable termite damage to the point of being unlivable. A $25,000 liability to a $40,000 asking price. It would be cheaper to burn and replace than to try and fix. The real estate people and owner are angry with me for sharing the truth with inquirers. The problem is the inquirers trespass on my property to view it, not to mention the ruckus my dogs raise at activity within view.

where I want to · #5 12/12/13, 11:00 AM

I have no idea what the rules of your state say about it. In some states, allegations made in an advertisement are some guarantee. In others, it is totally buyer beware.
The first thing to do is to become very familiar with your state codes, realtor licensing requirements, etc so you know what limits you have. Because certainly the people you are going to try to get money from already know.
Most States these days have online acces to state and county codes.
Also get comparables of similar places- it may have already been sold at a discount because of this. And you need to know anyway. And get what documentation on what you were told- if it comes down to a "he said" it is really a long shot.
A lot depends on your feelings about this- if you love everything else about it, I would try to pry the money out of the seller and real estate agent as that would probably be easiest.

Tango · #6 12/12/13, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mnn2501

You bought the property on an 'as is ' basis after the owner told you he had not been able to walk the property, and you admitted that in the beginning you could not walk the property either so obviously the guy was not lying to you.
There is a principle involved 'caveat emptor' that's been around for a couple thousand years - it translates into "Let the buyer beware"

There is no lawsuit here however if it was used as a dump there may be federal cleanup money available HOWEVER there will be many federal regulations involved in the clean up and eventual land use allowed and I certainly would not want to go down that path myself.

Sounds to me that you did not do your 'due diligence' and now you have buyers remorse. Sorry, but this is on you, not the past seller.
Either deal with it or sell the property 'as is' disclosing what you know about the property. I doubt you'll even come close to breaking even, but you might be able to dump the property.

You are right, I didn't do my due diligence. It is the very last time I expect honesty from anyone. We all learn sometime and this has been my time. But the seller owned this property for 8 years. And it wasn't always overgrown. He told me he bushhogged it himself. I seriously doubt anyone could be here for more than a couple of months without learning the history of the place from passers by. And his son lived here for years. And dumped his garbage here too, apparently. But if I have to suck it up and move on, of course I will.

TRAILRIDER · #7 12/12/13, 11:03 AM

Yes, sounds like you have done a lot of work. How far along are you in the cabin building? Is it possible that you could go on with it? Take a different look at things, maybe fence a very small safe area for the goats? A small area for a cow and calf pair? And wait until you are further along to add more livestock? It sounds like now that you see the whole picture, it is looking overwhelming to tackle. Understood. I can see that you feel like you've been ripped off. But with all you have already done, maybe its worth working through it? Good luck in what ever you choose.

Oh and I cannot give you any legal advice...but I would guess that "as is" is exactly what it means. The old saying "Buyer beware" seems to be appropriate advice here.

It would be nice to see a few pics of your property if you have time : )

Wolf mom · #8 12/12/13, 11:04 AM

Sure like what mnn2501 said. AS IS is as is....

Actually, 13 acres only looks overwhelming when you take it as a whole. It looks like you've already made a good inroad to cleaning it up.

Section it off, clean one section at a time. Sell metal for scrap, keep wood for firewood, be creative with the "junque", see if you can burn a lot - you can do it - look at what you've told us you've already done.

jwal10 · #9 12/12/13, 11:09 AM

Did you pay too much or have run out of money and grunt? Bad deal for sure but you are on your own on this. Is there much scrap that can be gathered and hauled in when prices are high? There are tire places that take tires almost free, a dollar or too. We have a community cleanup here and IF we load, they take for a dollar each, 3,000 tires this year alone. Be careful, who knows what is in there if it was old buildings and junk hauled in, cheap dump, a few dollars, no care about the land, just money coming in. Did the son of the owner do this? I have seen it here, dope money. Let people dump there, out of the way, no thought for future. Have you found old oil or fuel dumped?

....James

Tango · #10 12/12/13, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by where I want to

I have no idea what the rules of your state say about it. In some states, allegations made in an advertisement are some guarantee. In others, it is totally buyer beware.
The first thing to do is to become very familiar with your state codes, realtor licensing requirements, etc so you know what limits you have. Because certainly the people you are going to try to get money from already know.
Most States these days have online acces to state and county codes.
Also get comparables of similar places- it may have already been sold at a discount because of this. And you need to know anyway. And get what documentation on what you were told- if it comes down to a "he said" it is really a long shot.
A lot depends on your feelings about this- if you love everything else about it, I would try to pry the money out of the seller and real estate agent as that would probably be easiest.

I'm not feeling at ease here. Not so much the place but the deception and that what I wanted to do with it is on a backburner until other things are resolved - until there is money for that. So maybe walking away would be easier.

jwal10 · #11 12/12/13, 11:17 AM

Can you get most of the trash into that dump hole that is there. Can you burn at all? Get everything in the hole, start on fire and bury, let it burn its self out. I wouldn't stay close while it is burning, who knows what is in there. My BIL is fire chief here, had a house fire, he was in the smoke. Had heart problems, found out it was a meth house....James

Tango · #12 12/12/13, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRAILRIDER

Yes, sounds like you have done a lot of work. How far along are you in the cabin building? Is it possible that you could go on with it? Take a different look at things, maybe fence a very small safe area for the goats? A small area for a cow and calf pair? And wait until you are further along to add more livestock? It sounds like now that you see the whole picture, it is looking overwhelming to tackle. Understood. I can see that you feel like you've been ripped off. But with all you have already done, maybe its worth working through it? Good luck in what ever you choose.

Oh and I cannot give you any legal advice...but I would guess that "as is" is exactly what it means. The old saying "Buyer beware" seems to be appropriate advice here.

It would be nice to see a few pics of your property if you have time : )

Thanks

The cabin is finished except for the flooring. I hired a great contractor before knowing the extent of the problems. When I was trying to find the corners of the land I ran into the largest dump which is a bit dangerous imo. Until I found that, everything else was okay, even if it was way more than what I had bargained for. Now, I've run out of money basically - what I cleaned up with was my "seed" money but it is with land and a cabin free and clear so only an income is problematic presently. Could be worse but also could be much better

Tango · #13 12/12/13, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwal10

Did you pay too much or have run out of money and grunt? Bad deal for sure but you are on your own on this. Is there much scrap that can be gathered and hauled in when prices are high? There are tire places that take tires almost free, a dollar or too. We have a community cleanup here and IF we load, they take for a dollar each, 3,000 tires this year alone. Be careful, who knows what is in there if it was old buildings and junk hauled in, cheap dump, a few dollars, no care about the land, just money coming in. Did the son of the owner do this? I have seen it here, dope money. Let people dump there, out of the way, no thought for future. Have you found old oil or fuel dumped?

....James

I have not found any oil or fuel spills surprisingly, counting my blessings. But I have found many empty oil cans. When the old shop was removed the concrete pad was clean, no stains.

I paid a fair price but would have liked to have paid less, with hindsight. He had no interest in cleaning it up and I do. Prices here are going up and the conditions of the land simply wouln't have brought in more at the time. It could bring more now though. The entire front is cleaned and mowed and with a new fenceline on the road.

Tango · #14 12/12/13, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwal10

Can you get most of the trash into that dump hole that is there. Can you burn at all? Get everything in the hole, start on fire and bury, let it burn its self out. I wouldn't stay close while it is burning, who knows what is in there. My BIL is fire chief here, had a house fire, he was in the smoke. Had heart problems, found out it was a meth house....James

I'm afraid of burning and have no idea what is there though I suspect it is the original homestead and all the crap it contained. People in these parts bury trash or used to , now there are places to take trash to that are convenient to use. Itis hard to tell what was the "collector" which is often close to being a mental illness, and what was the result of what seems to be a string of mobile homes being placed here in rental situations probably and later being moved or being allowed to deteriorate here. I removed three mobile homes in advanced stages of decomposition and all the associated trash inside and around them. The county should pay me for beautifying the area. There is no way a small country community doesn't know the history of what used to be such an eyesore. I've probably raised property values for the whole street.

suitcase_sally · #15 12/12/13, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tango

1) The deal maker was it supposedly had a pond, but the area was so overgrown, I couldn't walk near where it supposedly was.

I really hate to say this, but here goes. If the "deal maker" was the pond, by gosh, come brambles or bushes, I would have found that pond before signing on the dotted line.

Tango · #16 12/12/13, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suitcase_sally

I really hate to say this, but here goes. If the "deal maker" was the pond, by gosh, come brambles or bushes, I would have found that pond before signing on the dotted line.

I had a beginning case of scabies gotten from a local motel at the time. I didn't know it was scabies until later but my skin wasn't handling the brambles well. Believe me, I tried. I still have the real estate ad boasting of the pond, lol. Another souvenir for never trusting again. The blackberries were over ten feet tall and thick as night. Ironically the pond was the easiest and cheapest part of this whole mess to correct. It does have the perfect place for a pond and with a few days of rain, it has almost entirely filled a 6 ft. depth and about 50 ft diameter. Provides a multi purpose drainage solution for rain water and if I stay, the best swimming hole....

Pig in a poke · #17 12/12/13, 11:53 AM

You said the pond was the deal maker. I'd try to let go of that if you can. Many farm ponds here in TN went dry when we had our "exceptional" drought a few years back. It happens. And it sounds like you've made a nice one yourself.

Did anyone do deeds research? Go to county deeds office and follow the ownership back chronologically to learn about the property's history, especially if you are worried about fuel tanks. But if you learn something you don't like, I'm not sure at this point if that helps you or hurts you, in a case against the seller.
But it will name past owners, whom you could track down if you feel like doing a little investigative work. At the very least, it may give some more information to follow up on that might help you make your decision.

Tango · #18 12/12/13, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pig in a poke

You said the pond was the deal maker. I'd try to let go of that if you can. Many farm ponds here in TN went dry when we had our "exceptional" drought a few years back. It happens. And it sounds like you've made a nice one yourself.

Did anyone do deeds research? Go to county deeds office and follow the ownership back chronologically to learn about the property's history, especially if you are worried about fuel tanks. But if you learn something you don't like, I'm not sure at this point if that helps you or hurts you, in a case against the seller.
But it will name past owners, whom you could track down if you feel like doing a little investigative work. At the very least, it may give some more information to follow up on that might help you make your decision.

thanks. i paid for a title search before i purchased to check for liens. i know the names of the owners but don't have current information on them. the property was divided into two pieces and the seller had purchased both and reunited them.

at this point i am thinikng to count my blessings and move on rather than sue the seller. what goes around comes around and i don't need to be present to know he will reap what he sows. and if i am wrong and he is truly as stupid as he pretended to be, then i am out nothing by letting it go.

grateful for all your replies.

#19 12/12/13, 12:06 PM

When I sold a property I inherited , I wasn't required to disclose anything because I had never lived there . It was an as is sale & listed as such . Buyer of course could have had any inspections they wanted BEFORE buying .

Harry Chickpea · #20 12/12/13, 12:14 PM

If you have a suit (which I am pretty sure you don't) you would likely spend more in legal fees than you would gain. As you have recognized, you didn't even begin to do due diligence. You learned a hard lesson. (Edit to add - if you purchased title insurance and there was a known defect, the insurance may help.)

Your real choices are to soldier on or put it on the market and take a loss. Fence off the dump area and consider that land a loss. If there is a contractor around that wants a place to dump broken up concrete, let him fill it.