Title Question

Fire-Man · #1 09/26/13, 03:54 PM

Someone wanted to buy our used car yesterday and insisted that we ONLY sign the title, not fill it out or date it. Told us we can do a bill of sale---I give them their money back and told them to leave---refused to sell it to them. Figured they were up to doing something illegal. While I was getting the paperwork with the woman, found out her Man put a tag on the car---he had to take it back off when I refused to sell it------found this out when I went back in the yard-----running them off.

Would it be illegal to just sign it without filling it out with the new owners name.

TMTex · #2 09/26/13, 04:06 PM

Legal or not, if you sold the car to them and they didn't send the title in for update, you'd be responsible for any tolls, parking tickets and photo enforced tickets that they incur.

You made the right choice.

texican · #3 09/26/13, 04:13 PM

What would be illegal? You have the cash, they have the car... do you need something for your records proving you don't own the vehicle anymore? They need 'your' signature, proving that they have legal title from the former owner, and a Bill of Sale to show the Sheriff, in case you (or someone else) called the law saying a vehicle was stolen...

If you get whatever cash in hand, that you wanted for the car, what's the problem... I wouldn't care if they crushed it, drove it to Mexico, or into a pond.

texican · #4 09/26/13, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMTex

Legal or not, if you sold the car to them and they didn't send the title in for update, you'd be responsible for any tolls, parking tickets and photo enforced tickets that they incur.

You made the right choice.

You mean I can drive around doing illegal things in a vehicle I bought 5 years ago (that only rarely has to cross directly across a 'road' to get to the other side) and three owners back (last 'registered' driver) would get all the tickets!!! Woohoo! Now, if I could only find a traffic camera at the bottom of a very steep hill (can't get it over 35mph)...

TMTex · #5 09/26/13, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texican

You mean I can drive around doing illegal things in a vehicle I bought 5 years ago (that only rarely has to cross directly across a 'road' to get to the other side) and three owners back (last 'registered' driver) would get all the tickets!!! Woohoo! Now, if I could only find a traffic camera at the bottom of a very steep hill (can't get it over 35mph)...

So, you bought my car?

KCFLY · #6 09/26/13, 04:27 PM

In some states sales tax is based on the value listed on the back of the title. They could have easily put down a low number, basically fraud, and with your signature on their, you would be part of it if they were caught.

CurtisWilliams · #7 09/26/13, 04:57 PM

I have bought and sold cars on a signature title only. It has never caused me a problem. My guess is that the new owner will put in a lesser sales price to pay less sales tax, or resell it and not have to pay for a new title, or simply sit on it without registering it for a while.

About 20 years ago, I sold a vehicle. It then accumulated many parking tickets, and then was abandoned. The new owner had never registered it. The city tracked me down as the owner of record, and sent me a bill. I called the city hall, and explained that I had sold the car six months earlier. That was the end of it.

MO_cows · #8 09/26/13, 05:07 PM

I think you did the right thing. Why should you leave it blank so they can cheat on the sales tax by filling in a lower sales price? The way I see it, if I enable someone else to cheat on sales tax, that's just more taxes they are gonna extract from me and everyone else who is honest at some point to run the county.

Or, maybe they had a plan to sell it to someone else and make money on it, that's why they wanted it left blank, to sign over to the new owner after they made money off you. Too bad, so sad. They better mark it up enough to cover sales tax and title fees. The cost of doing business.

TMTex · #9 09/26/13, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CurtisWilliams

I have bought and sold cars on a signature title only. It has never caused me a problem. My guess is that the new owner will put in a lesser sales price to pay less sales tax, or resell it and not have to pay for a new title, or simply sit on it without registering it for a while.

About 20 years ago, I sold a vehicle. It then accumulated many parking tickets, and then was abandoned. The new owner had never registered it. The city tracked me down as the owner of record, and sent me a bill. I called the city hall, and explained that I had sold the car six months earlier. That was the end of it.

It's nice that your city actually took care of that. I've had a different experience from the city of Austin, Texas. I sold a car and put everything on the title before signing it. There's a seller's section to submit and I scanned it in to my computer before sending it in to the DPS. Everything was above board and the seller's portion of the title was supposed to protect me from the parking tickets, etc.

About a year later, I got a bill from the City of Austin for unpaid parking tickets. When I called them, I found out they had a warrant out for my arrest over the tickets. Luckily, I'm not in their jurisdiction and don't have many reasons to go to Austin.

I found the scanned title portion and the bill of sale and sent them to Austin. I also called the DPS to ask them to update their records. Following up a bit over a month later, I found that Austin still had the warrant out for my arrest. I resent the documents and they eventually rescinded the warrant.

It didn't cost me much, but that's beside the point. If I had driven through Austin on my way to somewhere, (which happens from time to time due to work), and got stopped by a cop there, I would have been arrested. That would prevent me from reaching my destination on time and put my reputation of being reliable at risk. The car I would be driving would be impounded at a cost of $100.00 per day while my wife finds the documents and clears everything up. Judging from Austin's ability to clear things up, I'd probably be in jail for at least a week and my car would be released when they rescinded the warrant.

Austin has these nice things called "no refusal days" where they stop people and do DUI checks. Some of the stops are random and even if you're doing the speed limit, you could get stopped. My right foot evidently has some sort of lead alloy in it that causes my car to go faster than some would think reasonable. My car also evidently looks like it's speeding when it's parked. Judging from my speeding ticket collection, I'm probably more likely to be pulled over than many folks out there.

So, about $700.00, a week of hanging with the dudes downtown and whatever it costs to have my wife driven from two cities away to deliver the documents at a minimum. (My wife doesn't drive).

It's not worth the risk and in my case, I did everything right. What if I didn't scan the seller's document or just signed the title? Good thing I don't go through Austin that much.

Sawmill Jim · #10 09/26/13, 06:04 PM

What he wanted is called an open title not legal in most states . Also some states now require a bill of sale too. I got a buddy has a dealer license because i buy out of state so if anyone gets picky i let him buy it for me .

watcher · #11 09/26/13, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texican

You mean I can drive around doing illegal things in a vehicle I bought 5 years ago (that only rarely has to cross directly across a 'road' to get to the other side) and three owners back (last 'registered' driver) would get all the tickets!!! Woohoo! Now, if I could only find a traffic camera at the bottom of a very steep hill (can't get it over 35mph)...

In most states yep, until the title is legally transferred you are considered the legal owner and therefore legally liable.

The bill of sale MIGHT offer some protection but only if its notarized or legally witnessed. Without that its next to useless in a court of law.

Wis Bang 2 · #12 09/26/13, 06:53 PM

This is a common practice in New Jersey.

With taxes already so high; people got several hidden taxes by raising Motor Vehicle fees. One involves an 'old' title. A simple title [no loan] used to be $4.00 until it was 12 business days past the date then it was $20.00 so it was common to not date them.

The current fees would be $25.00 Jacked up over $50.00 if 'late'.

You can't beat the sales tax, they review then against book value and 13 months later send you the bill for the difference plus penalty & interest since it is over a year old! You can't do anything else w/ Motor vehicle until you pay up or get the former owner to sign off that there was damage, etc. to warrant the below market value sale.

Fire-Man · #13 09/26/13, 07:19 PM

These People had no problem with me putting the price they paid on the title(in the little square) they just did not want me to write out Whom bought it, address etc.

I talked with a DMV Employee and see said it was illegal to NOT fill it out completely.

There is No way that you can be sure they will get the title /paper work transfered if some one buys your car unless you go with them and watch.

I do wonder what would happen if someone buys my car and never gets the Title transfered and drive it regular, uninsured, no paperwork and get in a wreck where someone dies and the Driver runs, only name they will come up with is mine.

calliemoonbeam · #14 09/26/13, 07:20 PM

The reason I've known people to do this was that, once there's a sales date on the title (here in Oklahoma anyway, not sure about everywhere else), they only have 30 days to get it changed over into their name, which means paying the sales and excise tax and purchasing the new tag.

On the first day it's late, there's a $25 charge and then so much per day added on for every day it's late after that. If they know they won't have the money for 2-3 months, they leave it undated and then they don't have to pay the late fee or the daily penalty up until the date they actually change the title over.

It's not right or legal, but I've known lots of people who've done it. I was asked to do it once and refused. They acted like I was crazy or what rhymes with a witch, lol, but I didn't care. I never even thought about being on the hook for tickets, accidents and stuff! Just cheating on the taxes and tag was enough for me.

But with those people actually putting a different car tag on there (before they even left your driveway, much less finished the deal!), it sounds like they were up to some kind of serious fraud. You did good to send them packing!

texican · #15 09/26/13, 10:39 PM

Wouldn't pulling the plates negate any future tickets?

Sawmill Jim · #16 09/26/13, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texican

Wouldn't pulling the plates negate any future tickets?

When some one put another plate not matching the car it would get interesting fast should the cops run that vin number . Jail and towing come to mind

Wendy · #17 09/27/13, 12:10 AM

Quote:

These People had no problem with me putting the price they paid on the title(in the little square) they just did not want me to write out Whom bought it, address etc.

I talked with a DMV Employee and see said it was illegal to NOT fill it out completely.

I just bought a different car yesterday. Went to get plates today & I filled in the info for buyer. The guy I bought it from didn't. He only filled out his info, the odometer reading, the price, & date. Maybe it varies from state to state.

Alice In TX/MO · #18 09/27/13, 06:42 AM

Texican, yes, you can get tickets on a car you sold but the new owner didn't do the title transfer. It has happened to my son.

Alice In TX/MO · #19 09/27/13, 06:43 AM

In Texas now, you have to declare a purchase price that is within reason. They look up Blue Book value at the title office.

Yvonne's hubby · #20 09/27/13, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire-Man

Someone wanted to buy our used car yesterday and insisted that we ONLY sign the title, not fill it out or date it. Told us we can do a bill of sale---I give them their money back and told them to leave---refused to sell it to them. Figured they were up to doing something illegal. While I was getting the paperwork with the woman, found out her Man put a tag on the car---he had to take it back off when I refused to sell it------found this out when I went back in the yard-----running them off.

Would it be illegal to just sign it without filling it out with the new owners name.

I dont know if its really illegal, its a fairly common practice around this area, but it sure isnt very wise. Unless the title is transfered to the new owner, YOU are responsible for any accidents, tickets or other problems that might happen after you sell it. It is not something I would do.