Well seems to be going dry....

rio002 · #1 08/19/13, 03:31 PM

Hi all!! Need to pick some brains out there as I am currently dead ended in what to try next. Problem: We live within an acre of Wenatchee River, good river but it fluctuates alot through the seasons. We have a shallow well about 30ft that was put in in 1980, the pump is only 4 years old all the elctrical (pressure switch, gauge etc.) is also only a few years old. Every winter our well goes from recovering fully in about an hour to 60psi to taking about 8 hours to recover, and spring, summer, fall it is wonderful and we have plenty of water on demand. This spring however the powers that be renovated the leaky, concrete canal that sat uphill from our well into a closed pipe system. So all summer we have had "winter" water supply which means you can run 1 load of laundry or 1 load of dishes in the morning and if you're careful all day, there's water left for navy showers at night. A week ago we had a big storm come through which raised the river 8 inches and gave us plenty of water for the day....but the next day when the river dropped back down to it's normal depth, our well can only pump to 30psi and then you hear the pump run dry. When all the lines to the house were still full of water, the gauge would hold pressure just fine at 30psi with the pump manually shut off until we used water in the house. Currently if I turn the pump on it will pump to 30psi, shut it off when it sounds dry and the pressure will slowly drop as it refills the houselines, I can repeat this procedure 1 time in the next 2mins. but then not again for about 8 hours.Luckily we were able to hook into the new irrigation system a few months ago with some neighborly help with the digging and we are able to run hoses to the house and carry 5gal. buckets in for laundry, toilet flushing etc. But otherwise the pump has to be off to avoid burning it out, my regular pump guy came out and said that we probably are running dry due to the irrigation change that probably was partially supporting our well all these years and our extended hot weather spell. I tracked the river fluctuations back for this year and sure enough when the river is at 18.2ft or deeper we have water for the day, but any less then that and we are out. Any one have experience with this? One company (over the phone) mentioned hydrofracking but there is no guarantee of results. Any ideas?

copperkid3 · #2 08/19/13, 03:49 PM

Bite the bullet, reach deep into your pockets

and prepare to pay the big bucks

to have a DEEP WELL drilled.

Alice In TX/MO · #3 08/19/13, 03:56 PM

That well is crazy shallow. Drill a new one.

jwal10 · #4 08/19/13, 04:05 PM

Do you know if the foot valve is near the bottom of the well or how much water is below the foot valve? May be able to lower the foot valve. May only be temporary though.

Do you drink this water? What is this other irrigation water? Is it drinkable. Can it be added to the well to replenish it? If it is not drinkable (potable) do not add it to the well, it may/will contaminate the well. Can you set up a tank and pump to use the irrigation water for the house. Not for drinking....James

farmerDale · #5 08/19/13, 04:10 PM

It sounds like under your particular circumstances you need a deeper well for consistency. Some areas have shallow wells. Ours is 30 feet as well, but it doesn't run dry. A neighbor has a 6, yes SIX foot well, which feeds his household needs, but for animals he needs a second source.

I agree with the others, probably need a deeper well... Sorry bout that.

rio002 · #6 08/19/13, 04:49 PM

jwal10--Nope no foot valve, it's a submersible pump which has a check valve above it, being that it will hold pressure when the houselines are full means that the check valve is working right. And yes, this well provides our drinking and house water normally. As for the irrigation, nope not drinking it, it's standard straight out of the river pumped down a pipe to us. Considered, drinking it for about a second lol then I talked to our pump guy and I mentioned that I've been getting this gelatinous goo in the pool skimmer basket that we'd never had before and wondered if it was a sealant from the new irrigation line they put in for this end of town. He said nope, not sealant...it's bacteria from filling the pool with said irrigation. So can't drink it or add it to the well.

Interestingly enough, after I posted this, I got to thinking. It was Trout Unlimited that put in the new irrigation system, I had attended the meetings and questioned them about this precise possibility of if by replacing the old leaky concrete open canal irrigation system with a new closed pipe pressurized system if that could affect our well. Of course they said no but I think I better give them a buzz and let them know whats going on, looks to me like their project caused this, plus since the new system all of the (what was thought to be) 'natural springs' on the property have dried up eliminating water to the goat trough, lower yard and the creek that used to run in front of our house. Shouldn't they have to fix this?

agmantoo · #7 08/19/13, 04:52 PM

A large cistern would go a long ways toward providing the quantity. My concern would be consuming what I perceive to be surface water.

ronbre · #8 08/19/13, 04:53 PM

i agree, get that deep well in

jwal10 · #9 08/19/13, 05:03 PM

Don't know why they should fix it. You have been using their water all this time. Not like they dug a deeper well and are now "stealing" your water.

Still, is your pump at the bottom of the well? If not, it could be lowered into the water. I also would be concerned that your well is/was under the influence of ground water if the well level came up when the river did....James

joebill · #10 08/19/13, 05:08 PM

You live on a river, you probably have been consuming surface water all along, with a 30' well.

You can take measures to make it safe enough by adding a fairly cheap bleach pump and a large enough pressure tank to ensure that the bleach has about 20 minutes to work on the water before it's used. All this is not ideal, but what you have been drinking is probably worse, since it is untreated and coming from an irrigation ditch, more or less.

Lots of different systems out there for treating surface water, and you have lots of it on hand, between the ditch and the river, but don't imagine it's anything but surface water unless it comes from a deep aquifer.

You may need to do some filtration along with the chemical treatment or light or whatever you choose for exterminating bacteria. You can read up on slow sand filtration, or a small household filter might suffice. Unless you want them in your business, don't start asking government agencies about your water quality. Private labs are better and they are PRIVATE.

I'm no lawyer, but I doubt that you can sue because an outfit that used to give you free water isn't doing it any more. Only guessing. Good luck....Joe

Harry Chickpea · #11 08/19/13, 05:20 PM

I agree with all of the above. The long and short of it is that you have been existing on an unpowered and underfunded system and it has now caught up to you. If the concrete sluice was cracked and damaged, the company is under no legal obligation to crack and damage the new pipe to serve you.

Are we to understand that you have no legal access to the water or the pipe as a source of your water? I'm going to assume that.

First, with a 30' well you are essentially drinking surface water anyway unless it is lined all the way to the bottom. No way would I drink that water out of the well.

Second, it seems like the river only feeds a significant amount of water to the surrounding land at flood stage. That happens. If you sit on a rock shelf, that can happen even if you dig 1,000 feet down.

You are going to be spending money. The absolute first thing I would spend it on is a cistern. Think of it as a storehouse for any water you can get. Even better - get a divided cistern or two of them, so that one can have treatment chemicals and act as a settling tank. Total capacity must be at least 1,000 gallons and in your situation 3,000 would be much better.

Second, doulton cermaic filters to go on your drinking water supply. It is much safer.

Third, a simple pump to go from the cistern to the house. If you want to go cheap, "Harbor Freight" has $100 pumps that do the job.

Fourth, maximizing the water out of the well might involve setting float valves so that the cistern gets a charge of water every time the well has the capacity.

Fifth, and only after the first four, explore going deeper with the well or fracking, and set a top budget figure. It is easy to waste thousands on a dry well.

rio002 · #12 08/19/13, 05:34 PM

jwal10--My reasoning that they should fix it is because prior to their massive overall of the irrigation system, my well ran fine most of the year which coincides with when the irrigation was on. I brought the possibility of this happening to their attention in which they brushed me off, and now it has happened, due to their project, if I caused my neighbors well not to run, I'd be on the hook to fix it. I bought the property and water shares 16plus years ago with what was thought to be a decent natural running water supply. It does tend to fluctuate with the river, always has, but never to this extreme of no water. I know they have provisions in the contract for damages caused to property owners (there is only 107 of us on the whole system) and thought maybe this falls into one of them. For all of these years I paid the same for my shares on a gravity feed basis that the other neighbors paid for their shares with pump delivery. Just as I didn't know for certain that my well was being supported so much by the old system until now, they didn't know for certain that it was either. Just hoping for a little contractual light at the end of the tunnel as affording this which I hear can run upwards of 5kplus and my husbands recent hospital stay bill (6k after the reduction based on income) is a huge problem. Anyway, you mentioned a concern about the well being influenced by groundwater because our supply fluctuates with the river, isn't all well water supplied by groundwater vs. surface water? As far as I know the well is 30ft. deep and the pump sits at 25ft, I am unsure how much closer it could go without picking up silt/sand etc.

rio002 · #13 08/19/13, 06:01 PM

joebill--Apparently the old canal/irrigation system was feeding our well but the old canal was 60ft or so away up a steep hill, so as the water seeped out of the old canal it was under ground and had to go through 60ft of sand/dirt filtration before it entered our well water lol isn't that how natural filtration works? We actually had the water tested a few years ago and the only thing that was a little high was nitrogen--guessing because the well sits not far from an old horse corral, but was listed as everything in safe levels.

Harry Chickpea--I do have every legal right to my private well and the separate irrigation lines on my property right up to where they enter the main line at my property line. It's not like I tapped a line to the old canal and ran it to my well lol it just so happens that how ever much was leaking from the old canal underground 60ft away uphill, was finding it's way into my well and adding significantly to our water source. We had the water tested a few years ago as I mentioned to joebill and it all levels came back safe to drink, so we had no concept of how much irrigation was supplying to our system at the time. Ummm you're assuming that this was theft of their water, that we were knowingly benefiting from the counties lack of maintenance and that now "it's caught up to me" as though this water problem is punishment. This concept couldn't be further from the truth, I legally own my water share rights. Everyone who lives close to a river with a well naturally assumes the water is supplied from the river. I had no idea that the old canal was leaking so much into my well and exactly how could I even have tested for that, to be able to say what percentage was theirs vs. my natural water? I do appreciate your info. on putting in a cistern it may be the way have to go plus a filtration system of course, which I have never had either, kind of figured people have been drinking out of wells for years and we're all still here but it would probably be a good investment.

I don't plan on suing Trout Unlimited, but if they have a provision in the contract that would cover this or a portion of it, I'm not turning them down. Proving fault on this one way or another would be difficult at best, I understand that. They are a wonderful organization it just so happens that their project has caused serious ramifications on my property. I have been in contact with them today and awaiting a call back, with an expensive problem like this I think most of you would at least make a phone call :O)

Alice In TX/MO · #14 08/19/13, 06:02 PM

No, some water wells are in the aquifers deep below layers of soil, rock, etc.

jwal10 · #15 08/19/13, 07:23 PM

There is ground water, surface water and water from aquifers. The water from the canal is surface water, the river water is seeping under your property and coming into your well IF as you say, it is making your well level rise and fall. Aquifer water is below a impervious layer, you drill through that layer and have a well that is not under the influence of a contaminated source. Here in Oregon a water system under the influence needs to be treated, almost the same as surface water. Chlorine at a minimum....James

rambler · #16 08/20/13, 12:25 AM

I don't see how anyone could view this as someone else's problem.

You have a poor well. And it was set up to use water that was leaking out of a broken irrigation system.

They did, in fact, fix the actual problem they were causing - leaking water.

You need to man up and build yourself a proper well.

My 260 foot deep well just died, so roll up the sleeves and have a new on dug.

Just how it is, can't pass the buck to so eone else.

I grew up on a similar system to yours, a 30-40 foot well with a windmill over it. Every spring with the snow melt, it would pretty much fill up with surface water from the ditch 100 feet away.

Kind of an icky situation, if you think about it.

They made us do a new well back between the 60s and 70s.

Much better deal, a good deep well.

I probably sound harsh, don't mean it that way, just hard to communicate easily in short text messages. I think your well was not up to standards, and it clearly is not producing enough water. You were trying to borrow water from your neighbors, well fine who.e that lasted, but it is not their fault you have a poor well and were, in effect, taking water from them. Once they fix their water setup to operate correctly, you are the one that needs to fix your substandard well, in my opinion. You need to set up a well that gets water from your property, not uses the mistakes or veeakdowns of the neighbors, if that makes sense. I would not bother to call them or try to blame them for my poor well. They would owe me nothing, in my opinion.

Paul

joebill · #17 08/20/13, 07:40 AM

Certainly nothing wrong with calling the folks and laying it out for them, but not accusing them. It's complicated. If they were not there, would the water they are using contribute to your water supply? Not a question for you, really, but to illustrate that water "ownership" by either of you detracts from the other. They could have an easy solution, like allowing you to keep a cistern full from some local valve or something. Water rights only apply when there is water. No water, you have a right to a dry hole.

Yes, that's natural sand filtration, but it's vulnerable to all sorts of surface influence, and I'd dang sure put a bleach pump on it and set it so that the water had a minimum residual bleach content after sitting 20 minutes. Cheap and easy......Joe

rio002 · #18 08/21/13, 06:05 PM

jwal10--Thanks for the clarification one the differences, I'm not new to owning a well but I'm certainly new to understanding just how they work underground :O)

rambler-- I can certainly see your point and therein lies the problem. When we bought this place everything tested and produced just fine to the point where it wasn't questioned as to 'where' the water supply was coming from as it had been since 1980 when this property was established. So it becomes a case of 'we didn't know and neither did they', only that it was possible once it was recognized that our fluctuations matched the irrigation on/off schedule. However 'poor' our well was, it still worked and supplied water. What you're saying is akin to, if you had a beat up crappy car that worked and you used it and I ran in to it making it unusable--then I shouldn't have to pay for your damages because it wasn't new to begin with? There is an obvious cause and effect in my water situation, my well used to work prior to their 2.85 million dollar project and now it doesn't. Once again though, we weren't 'trying' to borrow water from anyone or 'taking' it from our neighbors, we simply did not know how much/if any was being contributed via the 113 year old canal above us, even Trout Unlimited, professionals at this type of thing, didn't think we'd have any problems. Luckily their trying to correct it, so we'll see how that pans out.

Joebill--I did call Trout Unlimited (met with them yesterday) they spent the time to check over the estimate I have for the well in comparison to connecting us to city water and are trying to make this right. It's nice that the main guy I deal with is a neighbor down the road and very understanding. He mentioned it's mostly because I brought the 'possibility' to their attention last fall at the meeting and perhaps they should have looked closer in to it but of course he's not admitting fault and neither are we lol. He's a good guy and I'm certain if something can be done, he'll make it happen. Now that I have learned much more about water systems/filtering we've decided the new system will have a filtration on it of some sort. I'm not worried about our water safety here but better safe than sorry applies here also:O)

K.B. · #19 08/21/13, 06:41 PM

I hope it all works out for you somehow - access to water is pretty close to the top of a homestead priority list in my book!

Even if you can get a well working again, adding in a cistern to help even out your supply/demand would be a good way to go. I would go with a large cistern for primary water catch off the roof, then bigger cisterns (uphill from the house, if possible) for feeding your house supply pipes.

There are relatively inexpensive (~20$) ceramic filters available to set up your own systems for drinking water. Definitely better safe than sorry!

jwal10 · #20 08/21/13, 06:56 PM

You say you pay for water right shares.... to irrigation water only, you have your own intake or source site. Not at your well. You are paying for irrigation water. Do you have a meter on your well and pay for the amount used? No water, no pay? You also talk about the river rise and fall affects your well? Your well is not an isolated or sealed well, a good rain probably also affects your well, too. although you say you had "winter" levels before.

I would say the well is what it was when it was drilled. I would be worried about the well having "more water spring and fall", is it from the river level or from groundwater intrusion. Interesting in that you would think the river is highest in the winter.

You were only lucky to have had the leak. The other springs were only from the canal water also. I see no cause and effect other than your well level was influenced by the leak. No ones fault, just you were not told at sale, what the well produced when it was drilled. Can you get a well log from your state at the time of being drilled.

I have a lot of knowledge of our state and wells as the city I worked for drilled an ASR (aquifer storage and recovery) well. We had to keep data loggers in 26 wells year around and monitor other small wells we had dug, to see how our ASR well affected all the wells in a 2 mile square area around it....James

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