Please define sustainability

[joebill]

I just noticed a thread that had been started recently about "sustainable" feeds for critters, and I have a lot of trouble defining that term in all it's uses, which are frequent.

The gent who posted it is considering planting something "sustainable" because, amongst other things, he can't grow barley seeds for sprouting, so it's not "sustainable" for him.

So......Anything else planted in a desert setting will need water that may or may not be available in the future in enough quantity for crops planted in dirt. That's a variable, uncontrollable element. What am I missing?

I hear about "sustainable" lifestyles, but life itself is only sustainable to a varying and unpredictable level and for a varying and unpredictable time. I get the feeling that some believe that lifestyles and farming ventures can be made immune to the law of entropy. Doesn't make sense to me.

I also recall reading where somebody suggested that getting away from propane and buying a large chainsaw would "reduce one's dependence" on outside forces, but IMHO, the propane truck is many times more reliable than the chainsaw. I used to work on them for a living, and I can tell you that they are anything but "sustainable" in the long run. They need gasoline, too, and files and new chain and......Well, you get the picture. Sometimes, too, they lay down and die the second year you use them.

Speaking of which, so do animals, so anyone who is not breeding their own risks an interruption in supply.

I'd like to hear some examples of "sustainable" lifestyles and homesteads, and why people believe that they can sustain them without input from outside, please......Joe

[nostawmama]

I consider sustainability to be able to support oneself for all needs. I don't think that such a thing is ever actually perfected therefore when I talk of sustainability I think more of a movement toward self sufficiency over the long term.

A homestead can be very self sufficient but as discussed in the thread titled: farm cycle, not importing resources from the outside to balance out the exports will eventually eat away at the resources.

Also unforseen deaths (of plants or animals) can cause a species to become unsustainable without outside input.

No man is an island.

[DaleK]

Sustainability as it's mostly used these days generally derives itself more from a desire to bring down others as "unsustainable" rather than anything real.

[Sawmill Jim]

Years back and some still do folks went to town every month or two . Raised what they ate. If that chains saw quit and they couldn't fix it on the cheep they got out the cross cut saw or a one man saw . Trees I got LP i would have to buy . Now I got a chainsaw that if i had all the wood i have cut with it we could both retire , it has never been touched .A lot depends on the amount of fluff or goods a person wants .Needs are really very few ,its wants that take over in a lot of cases.

Does one have to have a car ,boat and all manner of things to live ?

[Shrek]

Sustainability is achieved when your second or third crop of toilet paper has been harvested.

[Sawmill Jim]

Originally Posted by Shrek

Sustainability is achieved when your second or third crop of toilet paper has been harvested.

That is called cat tails they grow down by the pond provided you don't eat all the young shoots . Next

Or junk mail . I bet a few remember those Sears Roebuck Catalog and watch out for those slick pages .

[Paumon]

Sustainability is an oxymoron. Seriously.

[am1too]

I would say it is more a realative independence. Do what I want as I can. IOW I can wait the retailer out and buy on sale if I have properly prepared myself for those needs I can not meet by myself such as oil/gas/electric. IOW I can grow most if not all my food. I can give up coffee, tea and soda pop. I do not need TV or the phone to live. Once I have my soil in great condition it will require less outside resources such as fuel to condition it. Can I do it when I am 80? I do not know. I do know a cow puncher who still runs cows at 80. Have lunch every Friday with him.

Now some one said that propane is cheaper. Great run the stove when the electric is down. I can have heat with wood while the electirc is down. And it is far cheaper. Including the saw and supplies I have never spent $500 in a year for heat and retain my privacy. Further more I have been told I can get all my fire wood already cut for free. Just have to haul it home.

[salmonslayer]

Yet another poster trying to define others....what is a homesteader, what is sustainable, what is a Christian......it goes on and on and the common theme is someone trying to tear down someone else. We recently had a poster arguing about the fact that no one here was really a "homesteader" because we didnt meet his definition...you sound like his twin.

Sustainable is what I need to supplement my income and be able to live and thrive for me and mine. You like propane and I like wood heat, so what? I have easy access to wood and its literally free here so saving the $200 - 300 a month on the propane bill is a big deal. If your chain saw breaks down and your not capable of figuring out how to fix it or use an axe then propane is obviously best for you. I am struggling to be kind in my response to your thought that propane is inherently more sustainable than wood because the propane truck is reliable and shows up on time....seriously.

You seem to be trying to argue that those who claim to be striving for sustainability arent really doing that because as you state "I have a lot of trouble defining that term in all it's uses, which are frequent". Maybe you should not be so wrapped up in terminology and just encourage people to continue to be more self reliant.

[plowhand]

There are different ways to look at sustainability, but basically it just means that whatever you are talking about is holding at the same level or degree......whether it's an income. a crop yield, a fishery, game animals, or if you sell enough timber to live off the revenue every year and by the time the last section is harvested the first is ready to cut again....it's a sustainable income.......if it's enough to sustain you....if the price has fell 90% then the timber yield may sustainable ...but the revenue isn't

Sustainable feeds....better find out what'll grow in your area, and then save enough seed to plant a couple years.....especially the way the weather is now....it's hard to save seed oats from a field of heavy oats blowed flat on the ground and kept due to several weeks of rainy weather

I think self-sufficientcy and thrift....might lead closer to a sustainable situation

[Wayne02]

Originally Posted by salmonslayer

Yet another poster trying to define others....what is a homesteader, what is sustainable, what is a Christian......it goes on and on and the common theme is someone trying to tear down someone else. We recently had a poster arguing about the fact that no one here was really a "homesteader" because we didnt meet his definition...you sound like his twin.

Yep, homesteader elitism is alive and well. I love passing judgement on others from the loftiness of my superior computer chair.

[Wayne02]

Homesteading Sustainability: The ability to continually earn income from employers (or other off-homestead income venues) sufficient to support the homesteading lifestyle.

Not the romantic and pretty definition most of us would prefer, but it is reality for many these days.

[Jennifer L.]

I'd say it depends. I can grow feed for 100 cows here if I had to, and I have in the past, but feed for 100 chickens has to come from the feed store. Cows are sustainable for me, chickens aren't (6 chickens are probably sustainable from kitchen scraps). Now, I have to factor in diesel and machinery, but even at that, I can still cut and mow away hay for a few cows with a scythe if I had to, still can't/don't want to deal with grains for chickens. This farm would be sustainable for firewood if I went out and cut it, but I usually buy it because I don't like to work alone in the woods with a chainsaw.

I doubt very few people live a completely sustainable lifestyle unless they use very little or live in Third World conditions. Doubt very many people on this forum would want to go that far, although I think a lot of us could if we had to. So I guess I'll just stick with the definition that sustainable is producing something with few to no inputs from outside people.

[tarbe]

I took the OP to be saying that when a word is used so often without a common understanding, it comes to mean anything and nothing.

I tend to agree (assuming that is what is being said).

When I think of the word "sustainable" I tend to lock-up because by my definition, nothing is really sustainable without adding some qualifiers....time being one.

So for me, "sustainable" has become "less unsustainable than some other option" or "less prone to interruption than some other option".

Tim

[joebill]

Well, first off, I did NOT mean to step on anybody's toes. If I did, I apologize. I just hear that word a lot, usually in a negative sense, as in it's "NOT" sustainable, and wondered exactly what IS......

As for myself, I have no reason to look down my nose at anybody, because the only thing that makes my lifestyle sustainable is trade. I guess I could become a "nut and berry man" as my friends used to call me, and survive on what we can grow and raise and hunt, but that's not our current lifestyle. Probably won't be many years until I could NOT live that lifestyle because of age.

we make a few products and sell them, and that keeps the money flowing in well enough to sustain our lifestyle. We also grow some stuff, raise some meat, etc. We are also a "boost" to the folks who provide the small timber we process into some of our products, so that money stays rural and local, as does some of the money that local retailers make selling our products.

Part of what puzzled me is the fact that some seem to believe that trade disqualifies a lifestyle as, well, you know.........and without it, our family either be facing major changes or circling the drain. It's what kept primitive societies hereabouts functioning, and I think it's one of the most valuable tools we can use in rural lifestyles.

Again, sorry if I inadvertently offended. It's a word that always had an "absolute" sound to it, that seemed to be used to describe a set of rather "non-absolute" circumstances in many cases....Joe

[K.B.]

Originally Posted by Jennifer L.

I'd say it depends. I can grow feed for 100 cows here if I had to, and I have in the past, but feed for 100 chickens has to come from the feed store. Cows are sustainable for me, chickens aren't (6 chickens are probably sustainable from kitchen scraps). Now, I have to factor in diesel and machinery, but even at that, I can still cut and mow away hay for a few cows with a scythe if I had to, still can't/don't want to deal with grains for chickens.

could you sustainably feed the cows to the chickens?

[snowcap]

It's where as little outside input as possibe is added and when there is out side input it should come from some one elses waste. Or if things do have have to be purchased none is wasted.
things like resturant waste for compost.
I just stopped raising rabbits, and started raising quails. I have to buy game feed for the quails, but hopefully the will produce better than the rabbits.
digging into your pocket to deep with little reward is a no no when it comes to sustainability.
But I am not at the point where I am willing to produce quail feed.
There is a difference between sustainability and self reliance.
But as long as I earn the money to buy my own quail feed ect. I consiter my self, self reliant.

[fatrat]

Sustainability means whatever you want it to mean. Another such word is biodiversity. They are words with no real definition or a changed definition. They are used to get people to conform to something, usually with a political or social agenda.

[arabian knight]

Originally Posted by fatrat

Sustainability means whatever you want it to mean. Another such word is biodiversity. They are words with no real definition or a changed definition. They are used to get people to conform to something usually with a political or social agenda.

I like that. It means different things to different people, so no one meaning can cover all circumstances or areas where folks live. Even in years past folks went "into town" for supplies so they were not ALL self sustained either.

[Fat Charlie]

Originally Posted by fatrat

Sustainability...biodiversity. They are words with no real definition or a changed definition.

Really, they simply aren't absolutes. Your land can have more or less biodiversity, but you cannot achieve biodiversity. Your food production can be more or less sustainable, but you cannot achieve "sustainability" unless you choose to simply define it as "affordably."