Preg wife - take out loan for addition but we are debt free?

[PorkChopsMmm]

Long story short -- we built a 1.5 story 24x32 house on 20 acres 2 years back that was meant to be more of a vacation home on some land we bought. Wife fell in love with the place and wanted to move in, knowing the place is smaller but finished inside as if it was a dream house and making efficient use of the space. We have lived here for a year now and are now pregnant with our 4th child, sex unknown. We have 2 kids rooms that each have bunkbeds -- enough for the 3 kids we have now and maybe even the 4th kid (if it's a boy it would go in the boys bunk room, if a girl who knows) and we also have a dedicated small baby room. Total sqft is ~1200.

My wife homeschools and is doing a great job with the space we have. Before she got too far in the pregnancy she mentioned possibly enclosing part of our front porch to expand the living room and add another 1/2 bath. That is do-able and with saving we could cash flow that and built it relatively soon. That has now changed into adding an attached 2 or 3 car garage with workshop with a second story with 3+ more bathrooms that would be way larger than the original house. She wants this addition yesterday and wants to take out a $75k loan to get it done fast. Having built up our first house and her thinking that she wants to hire a contractor to build the addition (to get it done even faster) I think even this amount would not be enough money for what she envisions.

I am really struggling here -- we worked really hard, ate beans and rice for a year, and have made do with less to be debt free. We live on 20 acres, own the house outright, etc. and I can't fathom why she would want to go in debt for space we don't even need right now. I have tried to make concessions for smaller additions that we do overtime and cash flow -- none of those ideas sound good to her.

I know part, a lot, or all of this is nesting and I feel called to not lead our family into what I feel is a large amount of debt for space we don't need right now (e.g. I don't need an attached garage with workshop if it means going into debt) and with money we don't have. It would take us 10 to 15 years to pay back the loan -- assuming our cars don't explode and Murphy doesn't come to visit.

Any advice or been-there-done-that? It's hard to tell your pregnant crying wife that you don't agree with her plans.

[chickenista]

Oooh.. hard one.
Perhaps you could give lots of hugs and understanding, which you are doing!, and then try to make the best of the space you ahve now.
Maybe new bookshelves along a wall to free up some space, rearrange the kid's bedrooms to create more room, painting some rooms to freshen it all up.
Sometimes just re-doing/improving what you have will ease that desire.

[sidepasser]

Don't know what to tell you about your wife, but in my case, I'd have kids stacked like cordwood before I would go into debt for space I didn't need.

That said, my farm is paid for and I made every.single.payment and worked multiple jobs to get it paid off ahead of time.

I hate house debt. What if something happens and you lose a job, get sick, kids get sick, wife gets sick?

Maybe she would be satisfied to wait one year and see if she still feels the same way about the space? I would request that you revisit the idea one year after the birth of the baby and see if she still wants to go into debt to get more space, I bet she would be fine just like you are with maybe some small, paid in cash for, improvements.

[PorkChopsMmm]

Thanks guys. I think the shelf building idea is a good one -- I have tried to bring this up and she seems focused on just adding more space but maybe I can try and get her to brainstorm with me.

The "wait a year" idea is a really good one -- e.g. we won't make any big changes until we give it another year. I think with the birth of the baby her mind may change.

[MJsLady]

Sounds like a case of baby brain. I would never risk going into debt again unless it was a life/death kind of emergency.

I would ask her if the new debt would be worth her putting the kids in public school so she could get a job and pay down the new debt.
Not in a mean way but to help her realize what debt would mean to your family if your job cut hours or something.

[PorkChopsMmm]

Thanks MJsLady. Good point about the having to work -- kids in school part.

It would be interesting to hear feedback from any of you mothers out there who have struggled with space limitations and kids.

[emdeengee]

My neice rushed into buying a house with an extra bedroom (3) and a big yard as soon as she was pregnant again incurring a big mortgage (debt). Her husband went along with this. When she asked my opinion I told her that IMO their 2 bedroom townhouse was more than adequate for the first two years of the baby's life since it had worked so well for their first child. Their formal dining room was a great play room so their son only ever slept in his room. It is not as if the new baby needed a new room right away or was going to be out running the yard for a couple of years.

Sure enough the baby is not in her own room and is just learning to walk now. They could have saved a lot of money in two years. Enough to not have to increase their mortgage. If you have a room for the baby already (even though it is small) you could save for 18 to 24 months and then pay for the addition without incurring debt - or not as much as if you did it today.

[frogmammy]

Well, (not counting kids) there's TWO adults in this marriage.

Decision should not be based on what ONE person wants...even if ONE makes a bit more sense than the other. Strive for a meeting of minds, each of you give up *a little* and each of you get your way, *a little*. That way you are BOTH satisfied...mostly. Much better than ONE feeling bad & taken advantage of about the whole thing.

Talk, see what is doable that you BOTH like, to do now, and maybe make plans on paper for what you want to do in the future on the house and give it a timeframe.

Remember, TOGETHER, you can accomplish ANYTHING!

Mon

["SPIKE"]

I do not know where you are or the rest of your lifes situations, but the way the world is right now I would not risk going into debt for anything short of a life threatening event.

I am totally debt free. 10 1/2 acres and a mobile home. Building the house plans went away when I lost the last job.

Build on your self as you can afford. Don't mess up the front porch.

Peace of mind from being debt free is PRICELESS!

1200 sq. ft. is plenty of room. Use it wisely. It will all help your family be more close and loving in the end. When you build your shop, build where the loft can be used by the older boys as they age. LOL

20 acres and debt free can be paradise.(But what do I know. It is just me and the SO. I have worked on this homestead without a job for 4 years now BECAUSE I AM DEBT FREE! It has come a long way and we can survive a lot now without much external assistance or the need for a great amount of income. I do need to go back to work later this year.

SPIKE

[bluefish]

I had a nice reply typed out and then hit the wrong button and lost it all. ARGH!

Anyway, I was just saying that we live in an almost 900 sq ft garage while building a house. 2 kids and another on the way. We also homeschool. Managing seems to be mostly a state of mind, we don't mind it most of the time. If your wife has done well up til now, I'd say most of her problem is pregnancy and the related hormones and all that stuff. I can totally relate right now! If you can get her through this, it'll probably even out again after the baby.

I think MJ'sLady has an excellent point to bring up about having to work to help pay for the addition. I know I'd live (relatively) happily in a card board box to stay home with my kids. I do have to remind myself of that often at this stage, though. There are times that I'd like to be able to go in my room and lock the door so I don't have to hear the squabbling and nitpicking. My bedroom walls are blankets, though, so that ain't gonna happen. That's what I dream about most often lately, solid walls and doors.

[nostawmama]

I am a stay at home mom with limited space and I also homeschool. My youngest just turned 2 so I remember being pregnant and trying to set up for the little one. What really got to me was not so much space but organization! When nothing is organized it makes the simplest task take twice as long and when pregnancy makes thinking three times harder... ya get the picture. Space would still be awesome but the organization steps took tons less money and yes I can stay home because we made the sacrifice to not incur more debt. If she was with you 100% to get debt free I think that she will feel better later knowing that you held firm with her on continuing to be debt free.

I also think about it this way- find out how many hours it would cost YOU to pay back the loan and tell her that it is important to you to spend that time with her and the children (new baby included) not on space that is not necessary!

[Otter]

I'm going to be a dissenting voice here. Yeah, you should compromise, but give that woman some SPACE!!! House debt is building equity, not the end of the world. As far as I'm concerned, it is the only debt worth getting into.

I can see her going totally stir crazy in that small space with 3 kids and a 4th on the way. (For all you folks who say it's plenty of room - fine, for YOU, it's plenty, for HER, clearly not. Let's not be judgy about that)
Sounds to me like she's been doing the best she can with it, dealing as best she can, but enough is enough.
This is not the first time you've had space issues, I remember the thread about the dog. What was the problem? Space.

So I'd say to her that you guys need to talk and work out a compromise between her claustrophobia and cabin fever (I homeschool, it's rewarding, but there are days when I would happily send them to school and go to work to pay for a real, actual house, with closets and pantries and cabinets and furniture not crammed in and, and ... ok, I'm drooling) and your fear of debt.
But I would have that conversation WHILE enclosing the porch!! Go get some 2x4s, start work, and THEN start talking!

[Belfrybat]

I really agree with the "wait a year" before doing any serious building that would entail a mortgage. But you mentioned you could manage adding onto the living room and putting in another bath. Perhaps use that option as a bargaining chip to the "wait a year" scenario? That would provide more room and hopefully allieviate your wife's concerns about adequate room for the kids.

[farmerted]

you really don't want to do construction with a pregnant wife, just for "health concerns" ahem (find some scary thing online) or when you have small children. I have a friend who really did give his kid lead poisoning. I am a painter and refuse to work on houses with small children.
I have no idea what you should do, just giving you an out.
I currently have two houses, once I fix the farm one up and sell the current one I will be debt free, there is no way I will take out a loan ever again. I actually hope to save so much money I get ALL of my debts paid off. Then never use them again.
good luck.

[Taylor R.]

After working that hard at getting debt free, I can't imagine wanting something bad enough right then to have to take out a loan to do it. How far along is she? It sounds like she's nesting (though I don't suggest EVER saying to a pregnant woman that maybe their 'H words' are getting in the way of their typical logical thinking). I went nuts with my second. I insisted we redo some walls in the house to turn the dining room into a third bedroom, then decided after we brought him home that that wasn't necessary at all. He slept in our bedroom until he was 2. We spent money we could have saved and I regretted it.

Maybe she could use a weekend away from the kiddos to think about it? It is VERY easy to start feeling very overwhelmed and trapped when you're in a house with three kids all day, every day. Add on top of that the stresses of pregnancy and it's no wonder she's ready to make more room.

[emdeengee]

We live in an extremely cold climate now but before when we lived in a temperate area we expanded our living, playing and sleeping areas with a walled tent and screened room during the spring, summer and fall. Not to mention that when the house walls get to feeling tight you have a great excuse for getting outside - even in winter.

[lonelytree]

This is NOT a good time to go into debt unless you have the funds to cover it. My brother in law was raised with 9 brothers and 2 sisters in a 1200 sq ft house. They did fine with the little they had.

[Wendy]

That has now changed into adding an attached 2 or 3 car garage with workshop with a second story with 3+ more bathrooms that would be way larger than the original house.

She surely doesn't want 3+ more bathrooms?? Up until 2 years ago, we had about a 1200 square foot house with 9 people in it. The girls room looked like an army set-up with bunks in a row. Can't stack them the way the ceiling is. The boy's room was the same. We received some money from an aunt that passed away & that is when we added on. We paid cash for it. If we wouldn't have had the cash, we wouldn't have done it. We added a master bedroom & bath downstairs, & another bedroom & half bath upstairs. That is why I questioned the posting of 3+ bathrooms. No way do you need that many. We survived fine with just one when we had too. It's all what you get used too.

Me personally, I would not borrow money to add on. We just now put up a 2 car garage that we paid cash for. Took us 23 years to get that. I would definitely not go in debt with a new baby coming.

[jolly rabbit]

this is coming from the younger person (no kids, just got married in january) now is not the time to go into debt for things like this. Wait and save a year or so. (do it yourself if you can. add ONTO the house with the money saved, build your garage seperate (garage does not have to meet same standards as living quarters). Trust me do not do an attached garage, that's what my dad did, guess who gets yelled at for using power tools while my moms friends are over, or grumped at for starting the air compressor before 9am (mom is not a morning person lol) congrats on your expected child!

[PorkChopsMmm]

I greatly appreciate the feedback -- especially the camaraderie of those living with less space.

I see some immediate next steps...
1) Organize my own belongings -- I have some tools in bins that need to be out of the house. I will do that tonight -- hopefully my own organizing will encourage my wife to do the same or see what we have to work with.
2) Try to schedule a get away for her. 'Nough said.
3) Build shelving/storage -- I have the materials and talent I just need the direction. Hopefully I can ask her where she would want this storage.
4) See if we can swing the porch close-in -- the extra living space and half bath would only help.

Wendy, seriously, 3 bathrooms. When I asked her to sketch out her ideas she thought she could reduce it to 2 more bathrooms... but that is not including the extra 1/2 bath from the front porch close in. So we would go from 1 to 4 bathrooms. I don't think our septic could handle that load which just adds another wrench in the works.