Pick a diesel generator for me! :)

[Annsni]

We're ready to buy a diesel generator for the house. I've asked a few different questions about generators in the past as we tried to figure out if we could fix our old one (no) and what we might end up getting. Because of regulations around here, a natural gas or propane one would cost us probably in the ballpark of $300-500 just for permits to install so forget it. Looks like we'll go diesel.

I just want an emergency generator that would run the fridge, freezer and furnace. A few lights will be run as well (that's what's wired into the generator switch). We will store it outside - doesn't need to be a permanent installation but we WILL build a shelter for it with a lock so we can keep it out there. Honestly, we don't need a generator often (in the last 10 years, we've maybe needed it three times - Sandy being the longest period of time and that was just 44 hours. From April to October, we have no need for the furnace and we have a large sailboat with refrigerator/freezer and full electric including microwave where we can move to - if it's survived whatever caused the power outage.

So that said, what would you pick for something like this? Not a whole house installation but just a portable generator that would get the job done. Most likely we'll have to order this since no one around here sells any that we can find (we're on Long Island).

Thanks!

[farminghandyman]

How many KW do you want?

and you will pay a lot more than $200/500 for going diesel, the price of spark engine and the diesel for the same HP in a small engine is significant,


tried to do and apple for apple comparison, first is diesel, electric start, $2900
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too..._744380_744380
Honda gas, (with proper carburetor can be used on LP or NG), $850
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_378_378



home stand by unit 7KW LP or NG $1860
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...4679_200434679

here is Honda gas powered unit, 4.5 KW $1100
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...7313_200467313

about the same size diesel, 6KW $3500
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...duct_8792_8792

a Chinese copy engine and generator, 5.5KW $630
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...9024_200419024

the inverter units are not cheap, gasoline 5.5 KW $4000
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...5501_200585501


disregard any surge rating on generators, If they go into the surge rating for any length of time, they most likely will kill the unit, unless it is for only a few seconds,
There are a lot of places to buy generators, i choose Northern for a unified example, but there in the ball park for price, and I feel they have a OK product, the stuff I have bought has been good,

[davel745]

Maybe check out these people I have bought from them and am satisfied.

http://www.generatorsales.com/

[SectorSteve]

http://www.auroragenerators.com/gene...sel-generators

[Allen W]

Originally Posted by davel745

Maybe check out these people I have bought from them and am satisfied.

http://www.generatorsales.com/

I've looked at their products and wondered how they performed. It's good to know someone has bought from them and been satisfied.

[Annsni]

Originally Posted by farminghandyman

How many KW do you want?

I know nothing of how many KW we need. Hubby would know though. What we had before was a 4KW but I'd guess that might not really be what we want and we'd want to go a bit bigger.

and you will pay a lot more than $200/500 for going diesel, the price of spark engine and the diesel for the same HP in a small engine is significant,

I'd rather pay more to get a good generator (and more for diesel vs. gas) than to pay the government more money to allow us to put in a natural gas/propane generator. There is SO much regulation on it that I'd rather not let them get another foot in my door. So I'll pay $1000 more for a generator that I don't have to get the village to approve. Knowing them, they might actually even tell us no!

tried to do and apple for apple comparison, first is diesel, electric start, $2900
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too..._744380_744380
Honda gas, (with proper carburetor can be used on LP or NG), $850
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_378_378



home stand by unit 7KW LP or NG $1860
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...4679_200434679

here is Honda gas powered unit, 4.5 KW $1100
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...7313_200467313

about the same size diesel, 6KW $3500
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...duct_8792_8792

a Chinese copy engine and generator, 5.5KW $630
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...9024_200419024

the inverter units are not cheap, gasoline 5.5 KW $4000
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...5501_200585501


disregard any surge rating on generators, If they go into the surge rating for any length of time, they most likely will kill the unit, unless it is for only a few seconds,
There are a lot of places to buy generators, i choose Northern for a unified example, but there in the ball park for price, and I feel they have a OK product, the stuff I have bought has been good,

Thanks! I'll give the info to hubby and we'll start looking!

[Darren]

If you can afford one, buy a Hawkpower. None of the other home sized generators you'll see have a prime rating. A prime rating means you can run the generator continuously at that load until enough hours have elapsed to require an oil change. That means you can run it 24/7. It's not unknown for the Lister Petter diesels used in the Hawkpower units to run 40,000 hours before needing rebuilt. I didn't make a mistake typing 40,000 instead of 4,000.

That also tells you you are buying a unit that's extremely durable. The typical home units can't be run continuously for long periods of time. Generac for one. has a clause in the warranty which automatically voids it if the generator is operated that way.

[davel745]

Originally Posted by Allen W

I've looked at their products and wondered how they performed. It's good to know someone has bought from them and been satisfied.

I bought a 17 KW Tri fuel generator for back up power it works very good.

[Nimrod]

I too have been researching generators. I will eventually need one for my off grid place.

Why does the "village" have any say in what you do? Is it because of noise? Diesel generators come in quiet or noisy flavors just like generators powered by other fuels. I would not buy anything unless you can sneak it in under the radar or it's been approved.

Why do you need a generator? Is it temporary backup in case the power goes down or do you plan to run it 24/7? What do you intend to run off it? A submerged well pump is probably 240 volts so, if you have to run one of those, you have to have a genny that puts out 240 volts as well as the 120 volts most do. Can the 240 volt genny also put out 120 volt power at the same time? I want to be able to weld with my 240 volt welder and have a light on at the same time so I can see what I am doing.

What do hope to run at the same time? The power a genny puts out is limited and unless you get a really big one, it can't handle everything at once. If you are doing laundry, the washer is running, the well pump is running, and the electric water heater will come on part way through. Most gennys can't handle this. You can still do laundry but you will have to turn off the water heater and keep the agitator from starting until the tub is filled and the pump turns off. Keep in mind that starting an electric motor takes 2 to 3 times the electricity than it takes to run it once it gets going. My 3000 watt generator can't start the compressor unless there is no pressure in the tank but will pump up the pressure to the max once it gets started.

The way to figure out what you need is to decide what items you have to run at the same time and add up the watts to find out how much power you may be using all at once. There is a sticker on the back of most things that tell the watts it uses. Some things are rated in amps instead of watts. To convert, multiply amps times the voltage (120 or 240) to get the watts. The formula is Amps X volts = watts.

Your house has circuits that are usually 15 or 20 amp circuits. The 4000 watt genny you had would supply 4000 watts divided by 120 volts = 33 amps. Imagine that you can only run 2 circuits if they are both maxed out.

The quality of the electricity that a generator produces depends on what generator you buy. You can get a genny that produces pure sine wave electricity. This is the same as you get from the electric company. It will run anything you currently run from the electricity the electric company provides as long as it pots out enough power. Examples of a pure sine wave genny are any Honda or Yamaha with the model number ending in i or iS like an eu3000i. The i stands for inverter and these models are wery wery quiet (Elmer Fudd). If you are going to sneak one in under the radar, get one of these. Most gennys put out modified sine wave electricity. It's cheaper to make a genny this way but the electricity they produce won't run electronics at all or there is a buzzing or the electronics can be damaged. The modified sine wave electricity can make electric motors run hot and shorten their life.

If you need a genny that will be very dependable, get one that runs at 1800 RPM. Most run at 3600 RPM and the engines get twice the wear of the slower running ones. The Hawk Power ones that Darren recommended run at 1500 RPM.

How do you chose the fuel that a genny runs on? In your case it seems that the "village" has an ordinance against gasoline or propane or natural gas ones but not diesel so you may have to go with the diesel. A consideration is if you have other things that run on that same fuel so you have some on hand and don't have to set up a new fuel storage system.

Diesel keeps forever if you keep water and sunlight out of it. If it is very cold where you live, you will have to be very careful what blend of diesel you run your genny on. Summer blend can start to jell up at 17 degrees which will plug up the filter and the genny won't run. Winter blended will still flow at -40 since you see the 18 wheelers running at that temp but they might have fuel warmers. Diesel motors are hard to start at low temps. Here, in MN, I would have to have one with glow plugs to warm one up or it wouldn't start when it's really cold. You don't want a generator that won't start when it's really cold. Diesel engines are very long lived. The price is about twice that of gasoline or propane gennys.

Propane or natural gas fired gennys will burn the cleanest so they won't build up a bunch of carbon and gunk. The propane will keep forever. They will cost a bit more than a gasoline one. Propane evaporates at -46 degrees so it's not a problem unless you are at McMurdo station.

Gasoline gennys are the cheapest and the most prevalent. Gasoline won't keep much beyond a year, even if you put in stabilizer, so you will have to rotate your gasoline storage. The carburator will have to be rebuilt every 3 or 4 years. gasoline will ignite at -76 degrees so the cold is not a problem for the fuel.

All internal combustion motors can be hard to start in really cold weather so I plan to have the genny in a place I can heat up if necessary.

Electric start is also a necessary feature for us old folks.

This one looks interesting.
http://www.generatorsales.com/order/...00iSA_Tri_Fuel
Could be good for a backup. It's pure sine wave, 120 volt and 240 volt, and I like the tri-fuel. It doesn't seem to be as quiet as I thought it was. Also check the Honda eu 2000i.

I am also considering this one but the price has gone way up and some say parts are hard to find. I sometimes see one around $1000, most $3000 or more.

YouTube

It's 1800 rpm diesel so very long lived, 120 or 240 volt, modified sine wave, and rather noisy. Could be a siren song to a zombie.

[Annsni]

Originally Posted by Nimrod

Why does the "village" have any say in what you do? Is it because of noise? Diesel generators come in quiet or noisy flavors just like generators powered by other fuels. I would not buy anything unless you can sneak it in under the radar or it's been approved.

Our village only has requirements for natural gas or propane generators and there is quite the process to get it approved - and they don't even tell you what the cost for the permits will be (building and plumbing permits) until after you submit schematics, the plan of action and the information on the generator you will install. I think that is ridiculous. Diesel and gas generators are fine from what I can see.

Why do you need a generator? Is it temporary backup in case the power goes down or do you plan to run it 24/7? What do you intend to run off it?

It would be for standard power outages, of which we don't have a lot. Even with Sandy, we were only out two days. As I said, I need to run the refrigerator and freezer year round and the furnace in the winter months. I'm not looking to run much more than that unless our power was out for weeks and then I MAY want to run the washing machine - but I would be concerned about issues with that since it's a front loader with lots of electronics so I'd probably go with hand washing before I used the washer. Finally, we possibly would be charging a few things but even that would be iffy since we have other options for charging electronics (solar powered charger - Power Monkey Extreme - and the cars).

What do hope to run at the same time? The power a genny puts out is limited and unless you get a really big one, it can't handle everything at once. If you are doing laundry, the washer is running, the well pump is running, and the electric water heater will come on part way through. Most gennys can't handle this.

Fortunately, our water is city water with no wells so no need to run that. Our furnace is gas but we need electric to run the circulator pumps. Other than that, it's the freezer and fridge.

The way to figure out what you need is to decide what items you have to run at the same time and add up the watts to find out how much power you may be using all at once. There is a sticker on the back of most things that tell the watts it uses. Some things are rated in amps instead of watts. To convert, multiply amps times the voltage (120 or 240) to get the watts. The formula is Amps X volts = watts.

Your house has circuits that are usually 15 or 20 amp circuits. The 4000 watt genny you had would supply 4000 watts divided by 120 volts = 33 amps. Imagine that you can only run 2 circuits if they are both maxed out.

The quality of the electricity that a generator produces depends on what generator you buy. You can get a genny that produces pure sine wave electricity. This is the same as you get from the electric company. It will run anything you currently run from the electricity the electric company provides as long as it pots out enough power. Examples of a pure sine wave genny are any Honda or Yamaha with the model number ending in i or iS like an eu3000i. The i stands for inverter and these models are wery wery quiet (Elmer Fudd). If you are going to sneak one in under the radar, get one of these. Most gennys put out modified sine wave electricity. It's cheaper to make a genny this way but the electricity they produce won't run electronics at all or there is a buzzing or the electronics can be damaged. The modified sine wave electricity can make electric motors run hot and shorten their life.

If you need a genny that will be very dependable, get one that runs at 1800 RPM. Most run at 3600 RPM and the engines get twice the wear of the slower running ones. The Hawk Power ones that Darren recommended run at 1500 RPM.

Thanks for that info! It will be helpful!

How do you chose the fuel that a genny runs on? In your case it seems that the "village" has an ordinance against gasoline or propane or natural gas ones but not diesel so you may have to go with the diesel. A consideration is if you have other things that run on that same fuel so you have some on hand and don't have to set up a new fuel storage system.

Diesel keeps forever if you keep water and sunlight out of it. If it is very cold where you live, you will have to be very careful what blend of diesel you run your genny on. Summer blend can start to jell up at 17 degrees which will plug up the filter and the genny won't run. Winter blended will still flow at -40 since you see the 18 wheelers running at that temp but they might have fuel warmers. Diesel motors are hard to start at low temps. Here, in MN, I would have to have one with glow plugs to warm one up or it wouldn't start when it's really cold. You don't want a generator that won't start when it's really cold. Diesel engines are very long lived. The price is about twice that of gasoline or propane gennys.

Gas is fine but we found after Sandy, gas was hard to come by but diesel could be had easily. We have a sailboat with a 50 hp diesel engine so we could cycle through fuel without an issue from April to November. We are on Long Island so we get cold but under 20 is not normal for us.

Propane or natural gas fired gennys will burn the cleanest so they won't build up a bunch of carbon and gunk. The propane will keep forever. They will cost a bit more than a gasoline one. Propane evaporates at -46 degrees so it's not a problem unless you are at McMurdo station.

Gasoline gennys are the cheapest and the most prevalent. Gasoline won't keep much beyond a year, even if you put in stabilizer, so you will have to rotate your gasoline storage. The carburator will have to be rebuilt every 3 or 4 years. gasoline will ignite at -76 degrees so the cold is not a problem for the fuel.

Gas would be easiest to get as far as a generator but like I said, gas was very hard to get for the fuel during Sandy. Until they started rationing it, you could stand in line for 4 hours, have a limit of 10 gallons and not be guaranteed you'd get anything even if you did wait! But my friends with diesel cars? They drove right up to the pump and pumped away.

All internal combustion motors can be hard to start in really cold weather so I plan to have the genny in a place I can heat up if necessary.

Electric start is also a necessary feature for us old folks.

This one looks interesting.
http://www.generatorsales.com/order/...00iSA_Tri_Fuel
Could be good for a backup. It's pure sine wave, 120 volt and 240 volt, and I like the tri-fuel. It doesn't seem to be as quiet as I thought it was. Also check the Honda eu 2000i.

I am also considering this one but the price has gone way up and some say parts are hard to find. I sometimes see one around $1000, most $3000 or more. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Cv0wqkDnM
It's 1800 rpm diesel so very long lived, 120 or 240 volt, modified sine wave, and rather noisy. Could be a siren song to a zombie.

Thanks for all of your help! I really appreciate it!

[JoePa]

I have a portable gas generator - 43000 KW - when the power goes out I take it from my outdoor garage and run in next to my house - I run a extension cord through the dryer outlet and put a multioutlet on the end of the extension cord - I also run a 240 cord from the generator through the same dryer outlet - this way I can run extension cords up to my frig in the kitchen, the TV, the freezer in the basement - can also hook up the 240 to the pressure switch on the well so I can have water - also have the sump pump hooked up - I'm planning on getting another gas portable generator to have one as a backup in case one doesn't start - we lose power about ounce every two years - I always have about six 5 gallon cans of gas around which I use to run different equipment - if I ever ran out of gas I can always take it from my vehicles - I think gas is a good way to go -

[unregistered353870]

From what you've said you want to run the smallest diesel generator you can find should do the job. Here's a chart to look at what you want to run and just add those up to see what you need: http://www.vmisales.com/voltmaster/appchart.html

I recommend 1800 RPM over 3600 RPM but sometimes it's hard to find smaller generators that run at 1800.

[fordy]

Originally Posted by Annsni

We're ready to buy a diesel generator for the house. I've asked a few different questions about generators in the past as we tried to figure out if we could fix our old one (no) and what we might end up getting. Because of regulations around here, a natural gas or propane one would cost us probably in the ballpark of $300-500 just for permits to install so forget it. Looks like we'll go diesel.

I just want an emergency generator that would run the fridge, freezer and furnace. A few lights will be run as well (that's what's wired into the generator switch). We will store it outside - doesn't need to be a permanent installation but we WILL build a shelter for it with a lock so we can keep it out there. Honestly, we don't need a generator often (in the last 10 years, we've maybe needed it three times - Sandy being the longest period of time and that was just 44 hours. From April to October, we have no need for the furnace and we have a large sailboat with refrigerator/freezer and full electric including microwave where we can move to - if it's survived whatever caused the power outage.

So that said, what would you pick for something like this? Not a whole house installation but just a portable generator that would get the job done. Most likely we'll have to order this since no one around here sells any that we can find (we're on Long Island).

Thanks!

............I would suggest the Slow turning 6,125 watt diesel genset with the 2 cylinder perkins diesel engine ! $4499 , it is water cooled , has a replaceable oil filter and is just going to sip fuel when operating . Diesel has atleast a 2 year service life , IF it is treated or maybe longer . Natural gas\propane will remain viable for years , Propane energy content(Btu's per gallon) is just under gasoline by ~2,000 btu's per gallon .
...........Three major considerations prior to purchase , (1) the engine should be water cooled , (2)should use an external oil filter , (3)and should run at 1800 rpm(slow) when ginning 100% max power .
............1-Horsepower will generate 746 watts , so you can use that standard when evaluating HP vs power produced by any ginny you might be interested , IN ! fordy

[Nimrod]

A slow turning diesel would be the best generator for longevity. If the world ended tomorrow I would want a slow turning diesel and a bunch of fuel.

Your needs are different. You want a generator for emergency backup. It doesn't have to run 24/7 for a decade. I have had a gasoline genny since YK2. It can power the well pump, the fridge, and the freezer but not all at once. I keep it stored with the gas drained out of the tank and carb. It gets fueled and fired up a couple times a year and it starts right up. A gasoline fired genny is durable enough for your needs.

If you want the convience of having the fridge, freezer, and the furnace all able to come on at once, I would find out the wattage that the freezer, the fridge, and the furnace draw, add them together, and at least double the total to arrive at the minimum wattage the genny should be. You can get by with a smaller genny if you are willing to manually turn the fridge and freezer on, one at a time, at the breaker box several times a day for a few hours. This is all they need to keep your food from spoiling.

You can run the fridge, freezer, and furnace from a modified sine wave genny. If you want to run the washer, the computer, the stereo, and other electronics, then you need a pure sine wave genny. If you have an electric dryer it is 240 volt. Don't try to run it off a 120 volt genny. I wouldn't spend the money to buy a 240 volt genny.

Here is what I would do in your situation. You already have natural gas in the house. I would buy a tri-fuel generator of the appropriate size. It can run on gasoline or natural gas or propane. Run it on gasoline for now. If the "villiage" hears it and inquires, it is a gasoline fired genny and doesn't need any special permits. Keep the parts on hand necessary to hook it to the natural gas. If there is an emergency, and gasoline is hard to come by, hook it up to the natural gas. If the "village" learns that you have hooked it up to the natural gas for the emergency, tell them to go perform what is a physically impossible act in most cultures.

Look into what the "village" requires to hook up a gas grill to the natural gas. If you can do that without incurring the wrath of the "village", then put it where you want the genny if you need it. It is a simple operation to switch the gas feed from the grill to the genny.

For a pure sine wave genny, get one of the Honda or Yamaha i series like the http://www.generatorsales.com/order/...000iS_Tri_Fuel .
They come in bigger and smaller sizes too and they are really quiet. If you can get away with a modified sine wave genny then shop the big box home stores for a tri-fuel of the right size.

It sounds like you already have a transfer switch wired into the system. Use it. It's the safest way to hook up a genny.

[uhcrandy]

I would look at the Military MEP series of generators, they are great. Look up "government liquidations", and you can bid on one.

[Raymond James]

I normally recommend people to take a look at a PTO operated generator . I have a 10 KW that cost less than $900.00. I have the diesel tractor already on hand.

I have some real quite Honda 2000 for camping they can be hooked together to operate a camper AC , microwave, charge batteries, TV, Fridge, Very pricy $1,800.00 for the pair but they are quite and can be picked up and carried like a suit case. I home built an extended run system for them. They put out 4 KW combined.

Add up the items in your home that you want to be able to run . Remember you do not NEED run everything at the same time. Example you could run the freezer at night for 4 hours every other day and keep things frozen. Biggest item is if you decided you needed it is AC.

I think if I lived in a suburban area I would consider putting what ever generator you get on a trailer. I have seen manufactured power units that have a solar panel, battery bank, inverter and a generator on board. You can move it where ever you might need it to run anything you need. This may seem like a higher cost but then you were talking about a generator and putting it in a shed or building a shed for it.

From a preper prospective getting a enclosed utility trailer, putting a battery bank in it, an inverter, generator, solar panels on top then fill the trailer with food/water/clothing you would have your home backup power and your get out of dodge provisions ready to be hooked up and go.

There are inexpensive loud generators but I would recommend an inverter as much of your laptops, cell phones need power that is steady. The inexpensive generators have power fluctuations.

Have your home wired to receive a generator by a licensed Electrician and make sure you have a manual disconnect from the grid. You must always make sure you cannot feed power back into the grid with your generator you do not want to hurt a power company lineman.

[palmergenerator]

Another brand to throw in the mix: Kuboto, specifically the GL 7000 or GL 11000. They already have a tank, they are quiet, and they are Kuboto so they will last forever. (We repair and maintain generators, so we say this from experience.) They'll give you plenty of power to run the essentials.