Heat pump?

[DamnearaFarm]

*sigh*
Whenever temps drop much below freezing, my heat pump can't keep up. I keep the thermostat set at 62 and when the temp is below freezing the room temp is between 58 and 60. The thermostat says the auxilary heat is on at that point.
The system is less than ten years old (we had it installed) and consists of two units, a 2.5 ton handling the upstairs (never had a problem) and a 3 ton downstairs.
We lived here several years before moving out and renting the house out for a few years. From the time we had the system installed until we moved out the system had no problem keeping up nor did my bill go over 300 dollars. The first renters called one day to say that they had no heat. When the repair company arrived, they found the small cellar area where the inside part of the downstairs unit is full of water, with the unit partially submerged. We hired a mom & pop company to repair the water leak and other damage. They thought the submerged part would have to be replaced but when they dried it out, it fired up. Since that time (confirmed by the family that bought the property through owner finance and later defaulted back to us) the heat has never really been 'right'. Air works fine but we still freeze in the winter and still pay bills between 400-500 dollars a month.
The house is well insulated (even between interior walls) in the walls/attic/floors.
I've crawled under the house myself and verified that the ductwork is in good working order.
Thoughts? Do I need to just replace the part under the house? The one outside? The whole danged thing?
Thanks.

[agmantoo]

When the outside temps drop to around 30ish the heat pump portion of the unit cannot extract enough heat from the cold ambient to heat the home. At that time you are dependent of the strip heat to kick in and heat the home. Just because the light on the thermostat may indicate that the strip heat is on does not necessarily mean that the strip heat is functioning. With the water issue I would question if the strip heat portion is functional. My best guess is that the strip heat is somewhere around 10,000 watts or more and that there are at least 2 elements. Either a strip element(s) is burned out or the sequencers that control the timing of the strip heat are defective. There should be a set of circuit breakers controlling the power to the strip heat. Possibly the breakers are tripped or defective. Check the breakers first. Look for a set of 240 volt breakers rated at 60 amps or more. When you locate the breakers reset them regardless if they appear on. PS check to see if the filter has been changed!

[Sawmill Jim]

Yep what agmantoo said plus at 35 degree you may as well go to emergency heat side and turn off the heat pump . I think electric has gone up a lot too. Some those older units the strips only one set would work unless you kicked the t stat up a bunch . Time for a wood burner, coat or large wallet

[Harry Chickpea]

In the interest of having safety margins, we have an unvented propane heater, and a working fireplace, as well as our heat pump. If the power were to go out midwinter, we would be fine. Current propane pricing is around $2/gal which places using our heater cheaper than using the strip heaters in the heat pump. I'd suggest you explore this option, as the heaters are inexpensive and on a cold day standing in front of one can be very pleasant.

On your unit - one other thing I would verify is that the outside coil is not freezing up and that the defrost cycle is working properly.

[dkhern]

get a heat/air professional. id guess the heat strips are not working properly if less than 10yr may still be under warranty

[jwal10]

You need a professional to do a complete service, heatpump and furnace. Check freon and clean the heatpump coils/fins. May have problem in either unit or both....James

[TnAndy]

Most likely it is a strip heater problem, BUT something else to keep in mind is 10 years is getting dated for a heat pump. Likely as not, the SEER rating on a 10 year old unit was in the 10-11 range....13 is now the minimum that can be sold, and there are plenty of 15-18 SEER units out there. Heat pump efficiency has improved a BUNCH in 10 years.

Fixing the strip heater is going to give you an electric furnace....with an efficiency rating of 1......you put one watt of electric in, you get one watt of heat out. With a new heat pump, you get up to 18 watts of heat out of one watt of electrical input.

Big difference.

You might check with the Morristown power board and see if they have a program going to finance the replacement.....often you can save enough on your electric bill to cover the cost of a replacement unit.

[Sawmill Jim]

Originally Posted by TnAndy

Most likely it is a strip heater problem, BUT something else to keep in mind is 10 years is getting dated for a heat pump. Likely as not, the SEER rating on a 10 year old unit was in the 10-11 range....13 is now the minimum that can be sold, and there are plenty of 15-18 SEER units out there. Heat pump efficiency has improved a BUNCH in 10 years.

Fixing the strip heater is going to give you an electric furnace....with an efficiency rating of 1......you put one watt of electric in, you get one watt of heat out. With a new heat pump, you get up to 18 watts of heat out of one watt of electrical input.


You might check with the Morristown power board and see if they have a program going to finance the replacement.....often you can save enough on your electric bill to cover the cost of a replacement unit.

I agree to a point . They can play with numbers all they want . What they don't tell you is about balance point at a certain temp outside a heat pump will reach this point same temp on both sides of unit . Another thing is when a heat pump goes into defrost cycle it reverses the freon and the air conditioner is on thus turning on the strip heat during this time to make up for the air conditioner running and cooling the house down . Back in the day they put a t stat on the units to kill the compressor at around 33 f . Lots of folks are sold a bill of goods because no one really explains the mechanics of how a heat pump really works .They are great in South Texas

[wannabechef]

Check the strips and operation like others say, but you may consider closing off the upstairs so all the heat doesn't migrate there.

[agmantoo]

Sawmill Jim

I have a geothermal heatpump. It thinks each day is 56 degrees F. I installed it myself and avoided the excessive purchase price. This is my second geothermal heatpump. The original unit lasted ~19 years.

[Sawmill Jim]

Originally Posted by agmantoo

Sawmill Jim

I have a geothermal heatpump. It thinks each day is 56 degrees F. I installed it myself and avoided the excessive purchase price. This is my second geothermal heatpump. The original unit lasted ~19 years.

Yep it is better to do things oneself Have seen some of the older units run many years my Ac at present is around that old . Most Geo units require a well ,has a compressor and heat strips too or some do . If hiring one installed one could buy two of the other units and not run the well . Also here if you need one worked on and can't do it your self you have had a bad day for sure .

Me if i own it i can fix it . Jack of all trades master of non

[wannabechef]

Originally Posted by Sawmill Jim

Yep it is better to do things oneself Have seen some of the older units run many years my Ac at present is around that old . Most Geo units require a well ,has a compressor and heat strips too or some do . If hiring one installed one could buy two of the other units and not run the well . Also here if you need one worked on and can't do it your self you have had a bad day for sure .

Me if i own it i can fix it . Jack of all trades master of non

You don't need a well...dirt works fine.

[bja105]

Call a pro, this is exactly what we get paid for. Much of the advise given is wrong and will cost you money.
Don't close off registers.
Don't switch it off below a certain temperature.
Please don't use a vent free propane heater.

I have a heat pump in a much colder climate and I am comfortable, and it is affordable to operate.

[northergardener]

I really don't know much about heat pumps, but I'm always confused when people say they don't work in cold climates. We've had a geothermal heat pump for more than 15 years, and our temperature rarely climbs above freezing outside in the winter. The man who installed our unit said that the most common problem he sees is people undersize the units and don't put in enough duct work. My understanding is that since the air comes out of the unit at 90 degrees, you need twice as much duct work as gas heat to keep a house warm.
When it gets really cold out, say in the -20 range, then the heat pump runs all the time, but even then we are plenty warm.
The major downside is if we don't have power, we don't have heat.

[Sawmill Jim]

Originally Posted by wannabechef

You don't need a well...dirt works fine.

Non in this area are done that way .Most are designed for fast installing and a selling points .I am sure would could use a chiller tower on a water source type heat pump but would be hard to put in a small package . Yep you can use a heat pump most anywhere and it work but is it a good idea in places also type of house makes a difference ie air loss or heat loss .

I started working on these things over 40 years ago i don't care how great a pro one thinks they are balance point will be reached after this point why run a compressor for nothing ?? I use wood heat so it is no skin off my nose if one wants to learn Google is your friend . http://www.arthurhewett.com/id26.htm or type in balance point of a heat pump . Also once that point is reached why have those heat strips kicking on when it goes in to AC mode to defrost .

After many years they did do what they should done a long while back that is a duel fuel unit instead of heat strips at balance point it goes to gas heat . Now to use a unit ,sell,install or work on one knowing the science of the complete process in not necessary nor is knowing an expansion valve from a capulatory tube

Most house owners just want warm most salesmen want to sell something . Be informed . or better yet

Please point out any misinformation in my posts .

[agmantoo]

Sawmill Jim,

Most Geo units require a well ,has a compressor and heat strips too or some do . If hiring one installed one could buy two of the other units and not run the well . Also here if you need one worked on and can't do it your self you have had a bad day for sure .

You are correct with your referencing the need to make a repair. And yes, I use water as the source for the heat and cool. I can also heat my hot water for nearly free when in the cooling mode. heat strips are not required but are convenient if needed. I have a wood stove as back up. The initial cost can be prohibitive if contracted to include the installation. IMO the charges for a geothermal are not justified as the unit is not that dissimilar from a conventional air to air unit. The benefit of the geothermal unit is the operating costs savings. In addition to the 56F water for extraction the replacement unit is 27 SEER. PS....the open loop water source unit is more efficient than a ground loop version. This benefit is seldom discussed.

[DamnearaFarm]

I'll check out the breakers and see about getting someone here to check the strips. We've had someone out twice since we moved back in three years ago. Evidently the folks who lived here before did as well.

We had the units installed through the heat pump finance program and they put in a 13 SEER unit. I had to sit down and figure it out but we had the system installed in 2004.

[Sawmill Jim]

Originally Posted by agmantoo

Sawmill Jim,

Most Geo units require a well ,has a compressor and heat strips too or some do . If hiring one installed one could buy two of the other units and not run the well . Also here if you need one worked on and can't do it your self you have had a bad day for sure .

You are correct with your referencing the need to make a repair. And yes, I use water as the source for the heat and cool. I can also heat my hot water for nearly free when in the cooling mode. heat strips are not required but are convenient if needed. I have a wood stove as back up. The initial cost can be prohibitive if contracted to include the installation. IMO the charges for a geothermal are not justified as the unit is not that dissimilar from a conventional until air to air unit. The benefit of the geothermal unit is the operating costs savings. In addition to the 56F water for extraction the replacement unit is 27 SEER. PS....the open loop water source unit is more efficient than a ground loop version. This benefit is seldom discussed.

Yep correct the cost of install on most any units now is a killer And being able to fire up that wood burner take a lot off any unit . Sounds like you and i both try to get $19.99 or even $21.00 out of every $20.00 we spend

I would like to use a wood fired water heater and radiators for my heat but have never got around to doing it now that would be cheep if i designed and built it my self . Thing now is i'm old and wore out . I just hate seeing water go over the hill and not reused .I knew a guy kept his going in his pond or could use in other manners .

What the heat pump sales men don't tell anyone is that thing can hit defrost mode every hour in cold areas .They never figure the wear and tare either just give you the sear bull. Running heat strips to compensate for defrost must of been over looked in the sear factor and added to the salesmanship side . All depending on location . .

In the old days we figured in windows , direction of house setting roof color and many other factors in the size of a unit , including CFM and square foot with layout restrictions . Never hurts to have a return in each room for a top job either .

And on huge houses we went with a zone system

[wannabechef]

Originally Posted by wannabechef

You don't need a well...dirt works fine.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_heat_pump

[bja105]

Originally Posted by Sawmill Jim

I started working on these things over 40 years ago i don't care how great a pro one thinks they are balance point will be reached after this point why run a compressor for nothing ??

Well below the balance point, even below 0, the heat pump still creates more than one watt of heat per watt of electricity, compared to strip heaters that always make one watt of heat per watt of electricity. So, even though the heat pump is not producing near enough heat to heat the house on its own, the heat it does produce is still more efficient than the strips. Also, shutting off your compressor in cold weather usually means starting it again in cold weather, which, even with a crankcase heater, is hard on compressors. Below 20 degrees, my compressor never shuts off, by design. The strip heaters cycle and the compressor keeps chugging along. Most wear and tear on a motor occurs on start-up, and factor in off cycle liquid migration displacing crankcase oil, cold weather starts can shorten compressor life.

Originally Posted by Sawmill Jim

Now to use a unit ,sell,install or work on one knowing the science of the complete process in not necessary nor is knowing an expansion valve from a capulatory tube

This is just ridiculous. Knowing the science is essential to installing and working on this equipment. Not a day goes by that I don't use physics and chemistry. The guys that never learned the science are the guys who call me for help. Knowing the science is also recommended for giving advise on the internet. Spelling "capillary tube" right also helps.

Originally Posted by Sawmill Jim

Most house owners just want warm most salesmen want to sell something

Sure we want to sell something, but good pros sell heating solutions, not just boxes like the manufacturers and distributors seem to want us to sell.

Originally Posted by Sawmill Jim

Please point out any misinformation in my posts .

Those are the errors I find.

Dual fuel is nice, if more complicated. I am starting to fall out of love with complicated systems as I get older. More parts to break do break more, and customers don't understand how fancy is supposed to work. I have never had to run a no heat call on a wood stove, and I wish more people had them and knew how to use them when they need them.