Spring Development questions

bigd-bigm · #1 02/02/13, 08:43 AM

I am developing a spring and had a question. After a few days of site development - I think I have found that the best place to put my cistern for the spring water is on the opposite side of the creek (spring is on one side and cistern on the other.) The creek is in a fairly deep valley and I guess there are two ways to pipe the water to the cistern.

1) Construct some supports and run the pipe through the air to the other side. I have some steel beams I can use for this project that would work well (c-shaped so the water line could sit inside.)

2) Run the line underground (semi-major endeavor, digging by hand) so the pipe will follow the "U" Shape of the valley, and allow the water to seek its own level to flow into the cistern.

So my questions are...

a. Which method would be preferred?

b. How much slope would be recommended in either case.

c. We are in Western PA - Temp today is 9 F - lows are around 0F for a few days. I guess so long as the water is flowing - no worries about freezing? Distance between spring and cistern is about 25 feet.

Thanks for any advice

dkhern · #2 02/02/13, 11:12 AM

i dont have enough experience to offer advice to your questions. however one concern i would have is how much water comes down the creek with a heave rain? here ive seen sm creeks get large with lots of trash/logs washed down. if a log hits your pipe i suspect its gone.

bigd-bigm · #3 02/02/13, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkhern

i dont have enough experience to offer advice to your questions. however one concern i would have is how much water comes down the creek with a heave rain? here ive seen sm creeks get large with lots of trash/logs washed down. if a log hits your pipe i suspect its gone.

This creek really doesn't have any rushing currents - so I don't think that will be an issue. It is a babbling brook when the water is running alot - and nearly dry during the dry season.

TnAndy · #4 02/02/13, 06:55 PM

From my spring collection box to my storage tanks is about 150'. I use a roll of black plastic 3/4" pipe from the box gravity feeding the tanks. It lays right on top the ground. Water runs all the time, never freezes, lows at times below zero.

bigd-bigm · #5 02/02/13, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TnAndy

From my spring collection box to my storage tanks is about 150'. I use a roll of black plastic 3/4" pipe from the box gravity feeding the tanks. It lays right on top the ground. Water runs all the time, never freezes, lows at times below zero.

Thanks that is good information.

jwal10 · #6 02/02/13, 08:32 PM

I would bury it, done, never have to worry IF the water stopped and it did freeze. No worry about something tangling in it and breaking it. Unless it is so rocky it is very difficult. Do you just let it overflow at the tanks?....James

bigd-bigm · #7 02/03/13, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwal10

I would bury it, done, never have to worry IF the water stopped and it did freeze. No worry about something tangling in it and breaking it. Unless it is so rocky it is very difficult. Do you just let it overflow at the tanks?....James

Yeah - under the ground may be better. I have an overflow at the spring source, at the spring box (filters and settles silt and I will also have one at the tank (I have a well being pumped into this tank also - which is why I need an overflow here too.)

Any ideas on the slope I would want to keep on the line (or if I bury it, what Delta should I keep between the heights of the tank and the spring?)

Waterwheel Farm · #8 02/04/13, 06:54 AM

Spring Development questions - Homesteading Questions

This is a second spring that I use for the livestock tanks. I'm basically using a 3" PVC pipe to run into a 10" plastic culvert turned upright and buried about 4 feet. The bottom is set in concrete with a 1 inch plastic pipe that runs about 650 feet to a couple of frost-free hydrants. There's a screen at the end of the white pipe, and also a removeable strainer in the bottom of the black pipe. The problem I've run into is even with strainers enough debris gets by that flow starts getting restricted in the underground 1 inch line and I occasionally have to use air to blow/flush it out. If you run the line underground to your cistern you might think about leaving a place to hook ai/waterr to to flush yours. This is a temporary setup to see how it works. My thinking right now is to install a tank around the vertical black plastic pipe, run water into that, then let it overflow into the black pipe. I'm hoping this will let junk settle out more before it gets into the smaller line. Good luck with your project!

o&itw · #9 02/04/13, 02:02 PM

The best "drop" from a source to a reservoir is 1/4" per foot. That keeps solids of all sizes moving(dirt, grains of sand, etc) so they don't cause a clog. If you want major stuff to settle out, you need a large diameter (a couple of feet or larger reservoir) with the second outlet a bit above the first. The idea is to spread out the "current" to all most nothing. Screens will always clog up (or around here get built up with calcium) so the idea is to settle anything of any size out first. The "reservoir" needs to be closed on top. If it needs an overflow, you want a downwards turned elbow. In the previous example, you would want the stand pipe to be several feet across minimum with something covering the top, the outlet should be a few inches higher.

One might get buy with a plastic 55 gallon barrel with the inlet at about 10" above the bottom and the outlet about 20" above the bottom with the overflow at 25" ( if I remember correctly a barrel is about 30 inches high) That would seem too small to me to allow enough room for everything to settle, but it would be inexpensive to try. If you are going directly into the cistern as the OP specs, I wouldn't think it would be much difference as the feed pipe from the spring would be fairly short. If you run it in the air (I am assuming that the area is probably rocky) it needs to be high enough that a "gully washer" wont take it out over the stream.

bigd-bigm · #10 03/06/13, 01:26 PM

Thanks for your help - We just got the first spring water in the house this past weekend - Big project but well worth the effort!

bigd-bigm · #11 01/01/14, 01:58 PM

Well - It has been one year with the spring water. We had good water supply till the fall where it slows way down to a trickle, but it kept running. - We have a well too that pumps into our cistern daily and makes up the difference when the spring is slow.

So glad we made the leap and developed that spring. - If anyone has any questions on the process - I can share my experience related to any specific questions.

Thank you to all the folks who gave input while we were in the process of developing the spring.

bja105 · #12 01/01/14, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigd-bigm

Well - It has been one year with the spring water. We had good water supply till the fall where it slows way down to a trickle, but it kept running. - We have a well too that pumps into our cistern daily and makes up the difference when the spring is slow.

So glad we made the leap and developed that spring. - If anyone has any questions on the process - I can share my experience related to any specific questions.

Thank you to all the folks who gave input while we were in the process of developing the spring.

I would love to see any pictures. How do you run the well pump to fill the cistern? Float, timer, manual switch? Were in PA is your property? Our farm is near Dayton and Mayport, PA. I Would like to pipe a spring for watering our livestock.

TnAndy · #13 01/02/14, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigd-bigm

Well - It has been one year with the spring water. We had good water supply till the fall where it slows way down to a trickle, but it kept running. - We have a well too that pumps into our cistern daily and makes up the difference when the spring is slow.

So glad we made the leap and developed that spring. - If anyone has any questions on the process - I can share my experience related to any specific questions.

Thank you to all the folks who gave input while we were in the process of developing the spring.

Glad it worked out for you !

Key with a small spring, where the output goes down in dry times ( usually Sept-Nov here ) is LOTS of storage. I started with a 1,000 gallon concrete tank in 1982, and later in 1995, built a 10x20 building back in the bank below the spring and put two 1500gal plastic.

Even when our spring drops to a quart/minute output, that is still enough with that much storage. Qt/min over 24hrs 360gals.....more than we typically use in a day.

bigd-bigm · #14 01/08/14, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bja105

I would love to see any pictures. How do you run the well pump to fill the cistern? Float, timer, manual switch? Were in PA is your property? Our farm is near Dayton and Mayport, PA. I Would like to pipe a spring for watering our livestock.

Here are some sketches of the setup I used with some information (hopefully the attachements show up) - We are loacated in Pittsburgh PA. I can attach some pictures after I take some (after it warms up a bit).

I got alot of the information on the spring development from online videos from Engineer775

bigd-bigm · #15 02/05/15, 11:55 AM

Does anyone know of a good hand pump that could be mounted in the house to pull drinking water out of a well/cistern? I want to pull the water from a depth of about 50 ft (50ft head) plus pressurize our system which I understand adds another 100ft head. So about 150 ft head all together.
This would be for periods were electric power is lost.

Ideas???

Thanks

spur · #16 02/05/15, 01:24 PM

I am a Pa. resident also. Two considerations that I didn't see mentioned above. #1 you better live well off the road in virtual seclusion with out any near neighbors or #2 be prepared to deal with some very expensive permits and extensive regulations before you start. It is specifically illegal to do anything over, under, or around any water source in Pa. with out DEP Permitted approval.( Most States will have similar regulations ) It matters not if it is on your property. Doesn't matter if you or I consider that the work can't possibly affect the stream or spring. There are State Inspectors that their lively hood depends on their being able to tell you what is best for you and the environment. Unfortunately common sense doesn't necessarily enter into the equation!