Setting Fenceposts

[maddy]

I'm planning on installing new fencing (a mix of 3-strand barbed wire and field fencing) this spring. The corner posts will be wood--5 to 6 inches diameter. For a basic pasture application, would you set the posts in concrete, gravel, or just soil? I was looking at the QuickCrete product that you just pour in without mixing and thought that might be a good way to go. Your thoughts?

My soil is mostly hard-packed loam with clay about 6 inches down. Most of the year, the ground is very dry.

[Haven]

I use gravel for drainage. Concrete traps water around the post and rots it off.

[fordy]

Originally Posted by maddy

I'm planning on installing new fencing (a mix of 3-strand barbed wire and field fencing) this spring. The corner posts will be wood--5 to 6 inches diameter. For a basic pasture application, would you set the posts in concrete, gravel, or just soil? I was looking at the QuickCrete product that you just pour in without mixing and thought that might be a good way to go. Your thoughts?

My soil is mostly hard-packed loam with clay about 6 inches down. Most of the year, the ground is very dry.

...............You can set your posts without cement , by putting gravel in the bottom of the hole for drainage , and tamp them in . The key is to put them........DEEP , 4 foot minimum , and 5 would be better . Of course the strength of the post itself is an issue , IF you're using a round , wooden post like southern yellow pine , I would paint the full amount of length going into the ground with some kind of roofing asphault and them let them cure a while before setting them in the hole .
................My preference was always to use 'Used' oilfield pipe and weld the T's , corners and H's together . I always tried to set them 3 feet deep in a 9 inch hole with concrete . A 9 inch diameter hole 3 feet deep takes (2) 80 lb. sacks of sackrete , a 12 inch diameter hole 3 feet deep will take (4) 80 lb. sacks of sackrete . If you want to just pour the cement in the hole without mixing , be sure and fill the hole about half full of water before adding the cement . The cement will never fully cure if the soil is bone dry to begin with . fordy

[farmerDale]

Are you pounding them in, or digging them in? What kind of corner braces are you using? How long are the posts overall? I have made a lot of fences, and I have never used gravel, concrete, etc. I just use large posts for the corners, well treated, and with strong bracing.

[maddy]

My posts will be about 5 feet above ground for the field fencing and 3-strand. For deer fencing, they will obviously need to be much taller--perhaps 9 feet above ground.

For bracing, my thought was to install diagonal braces with a sunken concrete block for a deadman. I am open to other ideas; that was simply the method I read about.

[Horseyrider]

I had a fence professionally installed about ten years ago. It's all treated wood posts, and the ones for the corners and braces are really thick. All posts that aren't corners are set in gravel in drilled holes, and hand tamped. The corner posts and braces are in cement.

There has been almost ZERO movement in ten years. The latches on two of the gates had to be reset because they moved a half an inch; but otherwise, everything is as pristine as the day they set it.

It looks really nice; the installer even went down the line and cut the tops at exactly the same angle to shed snow, and it really does a lot for eye appeal.

[haypoint]

In clay, there will be no, or very little, drainage. I'd just try to pack the clay back into the hole.
Of greater importance is the cross braces. Resist the temptation to cross brace diagonally. Diagional cross posts at a corner will pull the corner post out when the fence pulls it. You need horizonal braces and run your tightening wires from just below half way up on the corner to just above half way on the support post. That pulls the into the corner hole.

[HDRider]

Originally Posted by Horseyrider

I had a fence professionally installed about ten years ago. It's all treated wood posts, and the ones for the corners and braces are really thick. All posts that aren't corners are set in gravel in drilled holes, and hand tamped. The corner posts and braces are in cement.

There has been almost ZERO movement in ten years. The latches on two of the gates had to be reset because they moved a half an inch; but otherwise, everything is as pristine as the day they set it.

It looks really nice; the installer even went down the line and cut the tops at exactly the same angle to shed snow, and it really does a lot for eye appeal.

My 66 year professional fencer guy sets them in quickrete.

[maddy]

Fordy, are you saying that you need only a gravel "pad" to set the post on, rather than gravel poured all the way around the post to fill the hole?

Haypoint, I'm trying to visualize what you're saying about the braces. I have some existing fence corners (built before I bought the place) that utilize three posts--one at the corner and one on each side of the cornerpost, about 4 feet away from it. There is a single horizontal 2x4 between the cornerpost and each of the two support posts, and there are wires that run diagonally between the cornerpost and the support posts on each side of it. Maybe that's what you're describing--except that the wires should be positioned a little differently?

Horseyrider, what do you mean by "hand tamped?" When you are setting the posts by hand (as I will be doing), are you supposed to whack them down with a mallet or something to give them a firmer footing? I was just planning on setting them in the hole.

[blue gecko]

Hand tamping means packing in the gravel/fill around the set post a few inches at a time. A 2x4 or iron breaking bar is good for this job but anything that will fit between the post and the side of the hole that will pack the fill tightly will do. Add more fill pack again until the hole is full.

A side note about barbed wire. I've seen more deer and other wildlife injured and maimed by barbed wire than I care to think about. IMO It really doesn't stop anything any better and animals get caught in it creating more damage and fence repair. We use 5 foot fencing instead.

[haypoint]

I think your 2x4s are done correctly and assume the wire braces are set up to pull the top of the support posts so they push against the 2x4, pushing the corner post away from the inside of the corner. I use 8 foot cedar posts as brace material, not 2x4s. Corner posts are 10 inch tops, braces are 4 inch tops and line posts are 5-6 inch tops.
All Redy-Mix concrete can be poured dry into the hole. Allowing the top of the hole to "mushroom" or "muffin-top" will cause the freeze/thaw cycles to push your posts out of the ground.

[motdaugrnds]

I can tell you what we did that have held very sturdy since 1997.

We used trested 4" fencing posts 8' tall. Dug hole at least 2 ft deep (depending on what type of pressure will be placed on it). [For our corners and gate posts, we used 5" treated fence posts, 3 ft into ground.] to get bottom of post below frost line.

We set a "flat" rock at the bottom of each hole, put the post on top of that rock, steadied the post with 3-4 more rocks at bottom, then poured quickrete into hole coming up about a foot. At that point (nearing top) we placed 3-4 more rocks to steady the post and then returned the clay/soil back into the hole, heaping it up around the post and tapping all securely with foot.

What we discovered DID NOT WORK was to put gravel in and around the post as it did not steady the post for very long; neither did returning only the soil; and even quickrete without the stabilizing rocks did not work as well.

We have never even had to use horizontal posts for corners or gates doing the posts this way.

As for keeping deer out, I doubt your 3 strands of wire will do that. (We actually prefer the deer to come into our pasture for hunting season; however, to keep them out of our acre-size garden, we did placed 8' posts in as described above, added field fencing 6' off ground; and then added 2x4x3 welded fencing a foot above that field fencing leting it hang over toward the outside. This has worked great!)

[dkhern]

i dont know where you are located. i dont know anything about frost heave and post. for corners i think N bracing is better than H bracing. n and the brace is going from the weakest point on the corner to the strongers point on the brace post place a loop of wire around botton of corner and around top of brace post and twist till tight pulling weakest point of brace post to strongest point on corner post. brace and wire will make X between corner and brace. i would also suggest metal T post for line post. here they are cheeper and you drive them rather than digging and then refilling. good luck

[maddy]

This is really great information--thank you all!

[fordy]

Originally Posted by maddy

Fordy, are you saying that you need only a gravel "pad" to set the post on, rather than gravel poured all the way around the post to fill the hole?

Haypoint, I'm trying to visualize what you're saying about the braces. I have some existing fence corners (built before I bought the place) that utilize three posts--one at the corner and one on each side of the cornerpost, about 4 feet away from it. There is a single horizontal 2x4 between the cornerpost and each of the two support posts, and there are wires that run diagonally between the cornerpost and the support posts on each side of it. Maybe that's what you're describing--except that the wires should be positioned a little differently?

Horseyrider, what do you mean by "hand tamped?" When you are setting the posts by hand (as I will be doing), are you supposed to whack them down with a mallet or something to give them a firmer footing? I was just planning on setting them in the hole.

...............Just in the bottom of the hole !
...............A second point about fence physics..............If you notice , on some fence corners the corner post will be rotated out of the ground . A fence corner should be shaped like an equal lateral traingle , both horizontial members the same length............now , IF you were to connect a post between the outer posts on the corners you would have the Base of the triangle .......then draw a line from the corner post to a point along the base that bisects it's length........creating 2 right triangles........That point is where the Combined forces of each side of the fence wire being stretched come together ! IF a diagional brace were set there the corner post would be mostly prevented from rotating out of the ground . , fordy

[maddy]

Fordy, I've often wondered about that. It seems logical that if using a diagonal support post it should be positioned to bisect the right angle created by the corner. However, I most often see diagonal braces that flare out in each direction along the fence line. I can't see how that would prevent the corner post from eventually being pulled inward.

[o&itw]

Don't know where you are, but the posts need to be set below the frost line (depth to which the ground will freeze in a bad winter) If you concrete your posts in, the concrete will tend to lift with a freeze also, tamping is better, and actually lets the water drain from the bottom of the post easier. That is usually at least 30 inches in the midwest. I would go for a little larger posts in the corner than 5-6". Personally, I would never set a corner post less than 3' deep and more is preferable.

A corner post should not "lift" unless it is not set deep enough. A brace should go from the bottom of the 2nd post to the top of the corner post. That keeps the tension of the fence from pulling the corner post over at the top. (it eliminates a guy wire stretching out away from the post) a tension brace, usually of #8 wire going though the top of the 2nd post and towards the bottom of the corner posts, keeps the tension of the fence from pulling the top of the 2nd post.

For the three posts in the corner, use at least 8" posts. Every so often down the fence, put a horizontal brace between two wooden posts, and then put a tension wire diagonally from top to bottom in both directions.

You fence wire will need to be "stretched" before you fasten it. One way to do this if you have an older tractor, is to fasten the wire at one corner, then tie it to the drawbar of the tractor past the other corner. Put the tractor in the lowest gear, and then leaving the ignition switch off, hit the starter for a second or two. If your fence is not on level ground, then you can just pull the wire hand tight against a tree or the tractor drawbar, and then go to the lowest or highest point in between the corners and lift, or push down the wire and it will tighten by itself due to the deflection up the hill or down the valley. If you have a lot of hills and valleys in between, you may have to experiment a bit or the wire may get too tight.

[fordy]

Originally Posted by maddy

Fordy, I've often wondered about that. It seems logical that if using a diagonal support post it should be positioned to bisect the right angle created by the corner. However, I most often see diagonal braces that flare out in each direction along the fence line. I can't see how that would prevent the corner post from eventually being pulled inward.

............Because the whole corner post is being pulled(inside) too the midpoint of the base of the triangle , by the combined forces of each side of the stretched fence wire as fare as I can tell . But most fence builders just add diagional braces to each side of the corner . , fordy

[farmerDale]

Originally Posted by o&itw

Don't know where you are, but the posts need to be set below the frost line (depth to which the ground will freeze in a bad winter)

Our ground freezes to 6 or 7 feet many years. Waterlines are buried at ten feet here. I have never pounded a post in with the concern of freeze lifting. I have never had frost lift a post. Must be different in other areas, I guess.

We have some 50 and 60 year old fences, which, if kept in good basic repair, are straight and true. For here, the key is very good quality posts.

Who thunk building a fence would vary so much one place to the next!

[haypoint]

I cannot make heads or tails out of the discriptions of braces.

Here is the wrong way to brace a corner:

N I I I I

if the left verticle line is the corner post and the right verticle line is the support post and the diaginal part is the cross support, then the tightening wire goes in the opposite diaginal direction to the cross brace. Fence pressure will pull the corner post. The diaginal brace will pull the top of the corner post up. The fence around the corner from this post will be pulling, and lifting the same way. After a few years the corner post will be out of the ground a few inches and pointing towards the inside of the pasture.

H
In this example, the corner post is again on the left and the support post on the right. The cross brace is level, horizonal. The wire goes around the top (down from the top by a foot or so) of the right support post and around the corner post, about a foot off the ground. When you tighten that wire, it pulls the top of the right support post and the horizonal brace pushes the middle of the corner post. There cannot be any lifting action as there would be if it were diaginal.

I I I H________H I I I (posts)

X________X (support wire)


Where there are gates, you must run two sets of wire braces. One diaginal for pulling the support post against the horizonal brace, pushing the gate post straight and another diaginal to counter the weight of the gate.

I put 8 foot posts in the ground about 3 feet.