Considering moving west

[Bret4207]

This is a post I made on some other boards last month. The information is a little dated. We're still looking, Missouri has a strong appeal so far. I'm interested in other opinions. My wife like Virgina but I'm not sure why, seems like trading one east coast state for another is defeating the idea.


I currently live on the Canadian border in Northern NY, the Thousand Islands region. I've lived here and in the Central Adirondacks my entire life. Yesterday our Governor proposed CONFISCATING my guns. For the first time in my life I'm seriously considering leaving NY. I own 342 acres, a decent story 1/2 1890's farm house, good barn, garage, machine shed, meadows, pasture, woodlands and wetlands alive with deer, duck, turkey, rabbit, etc. I bought this place for $75K in 95, refinanced 5 years back for $90K to take care of some bills incurred by my family, you know how that goes. I figure I could get in the $175-225K at current values. I currently pay about $6K in taxes a year.

I first considered Texas, Idaho and Wyoming. From what I've seen, in those states you either live on a lot to 3 acres or so, or else you own thousands of acres. I didn't see much in between. And, honestly what I saw was outrageously expensive. My wife mentioned warmer climates, so I sort of looked for something with a climate more like Virginia or the mountains of North Carolina, IOW- two seasons, hot and HOT, aren't really what we want. We looked at Missouri and a little at Arkansas but I don't really know the country. I guess what I'm looking for is a very gun friendly state, (so go guns, so go the rest of your rights), that's not ruled by urban people. Some place I can get at least 30-60 acres or more and a decent home in decent community that isn't over run with trashy people, druggies, criminals, meth heads, bikers, etc. I'd prefer to be at some elevations of at least 850-1200 feet, out of tornado alley, free of large infestations of poisonous creatures- that's something we just "don't do" up north. I don't have a firm figure in mind but I'm also 52 with a decent pension from my state job (BTW- they've talked of simply defaulting on that!) and can do almost anything work wise. I want a farm, but I'm not locked into a particular type. I do sheep right now and would prefer to stay with them, but I could handle other options too. I know no matter where I go I'm going to have to educate people on the fact all of NY is not NYC and we aren't all named Vinnie or Carmine and don't wear $5K suits. My wife is not real fond of the whole "southern" thing, (don't ask, bad experience when she was younger), so we're not too interested in Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana, etc. No offense, it's too hot anyway.

So, I'm sort of looking for ideas on where to look. We're tired of the taxes and the laws and the constant struggle just to make ends meet. Now we're looking at losing our gun rights which is just the final straw. Suggests are gratefully appreciated.

[PonderosaQ]

We are in the mountains of SW VA and might fit your needs as might the mountains in NC. We have 4 seasons, decent gun laws, low taxes, we are at 1400 feet or thereabouts,not over run with poisonous critters. I have seen very few snakes in 10 yrs here. You see all kinds of animals here, sheep, goats, cattle farm etc. Warm enough to grow a decent amount of your food and the growing season is longer than NY. Hunting and fishing are popular There are others on the forum from SW VA who might be able to tell you more. Sad when politics make you leave your home..

[quietintheland]

How 'bout the UP of Michigan? You have a varied terrain, taxes are relatively low ($6000/year in NY - ouch). Though I'm not sure you will find even a large tract of land such as you have now for much less than 2-3K/acre. Not sure about guns, but you could check into. The closer you get to the Ohio River, the more likely you are to run into poisonous snakes. If it wasn't for that factor, I would have suggested Kentucky, which would fit the bill as far as being gun friendly. But maybe you would already consider that "the south" anyway.

QuietInTheLand

[TedH71]

Are you aware you have rattlesnakes in NY? Yup, you do. With what it's worth, I'm from Texas but currently live in Kansas. Texas has it's pros and cons. West Texas has 4 seasons...and unlike most of Texas, it does get snow but it does get awfully dry. Lived there for a year. Moved back to East Texas where it rains more (lately we have been going through a drought). I wouldn't know about property taxes since I've not bought property in Texas but can tell you Kansas property rates are much more reasonable than Texas simply because we also have a state income tax which Texas doesn't so they jack up the property taxes to make up for it. Oklahoma has lower property taxes and no state income tax and I've been to Oklahoma often enough to know I wouldn't mind living there.

[dkhern]

might look at ar/ok i think land prices are better than what i hear about e tx or mo. im talking about what land sells for not what they ask when they hope to sell to a texan or a yankie lol have 4 seasons gets cold (to me but not to someone who lives in a cold area) taxes are reasonable. do have some poison snakes and do get twisters (buy so does everyone between ms and ks. snakes you learn habit and then watch twisters i built a safe room hunting is good lots of natl forrest and leases. lots of lakes streams and rivers. ar is gun friendly i have shooting bench and range to 300 yd me and neighbors shoot a lot. ar is a shall issue ccl. ok is an open carry state. e and se lots of natl forrest. both rural areas small towns come on down. get to know people blend in ask questions help and be helped just dont come and try to convert anyone lol

[Bret4207]

Thanks for the thoughts. We aren't the "come and convert anyone" types up here. In fact that's what we're fighting- the citidiots trying to take an agricultural area and turn it into suburbia.

And yes, I know NY has rattlers, my grandmother used to collect the rattles in the Tongue Mountain area near Lake George, but that's way south of us.

[Bret4207]

Thanks for the thoughts. We aren't the "come and convert anyone" types up here. In fact that's what we're fighting- the citidiots trying to take an agricultural area and turn it into suburbia. We just want to be left alone.

And yes, I know NY has rattlers, my grandmother used to collect the rattles in the Tongue Mountain area near Lake George, but that's way south of us.

[kimmie4476]

How about Arizona? If you want 4 seasons there is the white mountain area or if you want milder hot and cool seasons (mild winter days but cold nights) look into southeastern Arizona. We do have rattlesnakes here, but you are going to see those almost everywhere, luckily it is an open carry state and most people I know carry a revolver with the first shot snake shot when we are out in the desert The drawback is that it is dry, you aren't going to have rivers and lakes in this area like you are used to seeing, but no tornados, hurricanes or shoveling your driveway out

[Callieslamb]

Missouri has tornadoes, poisonous snakes and more meth the more rural you get.
Maybe not so much in northern Mo. Arkansas will have the same. But MO land is cheap.

SW Michigan doesn't have ...okay, we've got all that stuff too- but our tornadoes seem to be more whimpy. Our land is more expensive, jobs are non-existant but you can grow anything you want to grow - as long as you don't want to grow citrus.

[Batt]

I'm not going to try to convince you on Missouri. However, I'm quite happy here. Some of the reason's are:
4 Season's, oh yeah. Course the summers and winters seem to get longer as I get older.
Taxes, Newer 1600 s/f house on 20 acres w/ lake view <$1000/yr.
CCW & open carry. Except some of the larger city will hassle you about open carry. Lots of lakes, rivers and forests for hunting and fishing.
Land prices are reasonable (I know of a nice house and 10 acres on the market for $89K, you could buy it for $80K).
Know most of the neighbors for a mile in any direction.
Building regulations (depending on the county) are relaxed or non-existent.
Snakes, yeah, but not the poisonous ones so much (Only seen 2 rattlers in the wild in my life).
Tornadoes occasionally, just need a good storm shelter or safe room.
Anyway, that's my thoughts on Missouri.
Good Luck on your quest.

[geo in mi]

I've always thought a person should move to something rather than away from something, and that you always take yourself with you.........

The average person can't be like Ted Turner, buy up half the state of Montana, and do pretty much what he darn well pleases on his own land. Those days are pretty much over and any area will have its share of rules, regulations, wacky people, and some kind of snakes. Not to mention rocks, clay, mud, ice, insects, and dust storms.........

I have said before: I'm gonna go out fishing--out there on the water I can fish, fart, spit, and smoke cigars and nobody can tell me what to do. Then I discovered that half the folks living on shore have telescopes, and that the township has an ordinance about urinating in public.........



geo

[salmonslayer]

To back up what Batt said above, we moved here to Missouri for basically the same reasons you have stated and we are very happy with our decision. We live at 1165 feet on one of the highest plateaus of the Missouri Ozarks, we have 4 distinct seasons, land prices are ridiculously cheap, we pay less than $400 a year in property taxes for our entire farm, and we found a small tight knit community where folks welcomed us. This area is still populated by the small family farm, mostly cattle, dairy and hay, and our entire county is sparsely populated (less than 15 people a square mile) and zoned agricultural. You can build whatever you want on your own property with no permit or inspection (except septic) and if it falls down on you its your issue...that can be good or bad depending on how you look at it. MO is an open carry state and you can carry a loaded concealed weapon in your vehicle with no permit and hunting is so big around here that the local school shuts down for the opening week of deer season.

But you have to be careful like anywhere else. There are some communities here I would never want to move to in this area. The crime rate in our county is exceptionally low and I personally have found the whole Missouri meth tag to be way over blown. We moved from Alaska where the meth problem was far worse than anything I have seen around here but it exists just like anywhere. I have never seen any bikers wearing colors but this is a popular area for riding motorcycles and they are for the most part friendly weekend warriors who have taken it upon themselves to purchase every piece of Harley leather product known to man....perhaps a business opportunity for you.

We have lived all over the country so some things just dont bother us (like snakes and spiders) so I dont know what to tell you about that not knowing you. We find them fascinating and during the summer I spend a lot of time in the woods cutting firewood and fighting brush fires as a Fireman and even then its rare to run into a poisonous snake. We arent considered right in tornado alley but we do have tornadoes in this area so if thats a huge issue then I highly suggest you work that out with yourselves before moving to virtually anywhere south of where you are now. Even Virginia has a tornado or two every year along with hurricanes (I have lived in Norfolk, Quantico, and Virginia Beach) and it would be pretty miserable if one member of the household lived in fear of the weather all the time. Also, you have to be resourceful and creative to make a living here...quite simply the economy sucks, the few jobs that are available pay low wages with no benefits, and lots of bartering goes on.

I dont know your political leanings but this is an extremely conservative and highly religious area, not that you would be harassed if your a Democrat or liberal because there are some around, its just that if it bothers you to constantly hear about how bad our current administration is or to hear prayers before and at the end of every meeting or public event this would not be the place for you. I will also state that in my county ethnic diversity doesnt go much farther than Amish.

City-data.com (Google it) is a good resource to check out demographics of various areas and there are forums on every state and I recommend that as a planning resource. Then you need to take a road trip and see for yourself to see if you would be a good fit. We started in Minnesota when we were looking and went straight down the line to Louisiana before we found our dream place here in the Missouri Ozarks but we also liked parts of Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Iowa.

Good luck in your search!

[LisaInN.Idaho]

Originally Posted by kimmie4476

How about Arizona? If you want 4 seasons there is the white mountain area or if you want milder hot and cool seasons (mild winter days but cold nights) look into southeastern Arizona. We do have rattlesnakes here, but you are going to see those almost everywhere, luckily it is an open carry state and most people I know carry a revolver with the first shot snake shot when we are out in the desert The drawback is that it is dry, you aren't going to have rivers and lakes in this area like you are used to seeing, but no tornados, hurricanes or shoveling your driveway out

I used to live in AZ and loved it but it doesn't just have rattlesnakes, it has more species of rattlesnakes than anywhere else in the world. Not to mention scorpions, gila monsters and a plethora of venemous spiders.
My area of northern Idaho has no venemous creatures at all, thankfully. But we do have grizzly bears, wolves, etc. The tradeoff is fine by me. But land is very expensive and jobs are scarcer than hen's teeth.

[Bret4207]

Originally Posted by salmonslayer

To back up what Batt said above, we moved here to Missouri for basically the same reasons you have stated and we are very happy with our decision. We live at 1165 feet on one of the highest plateaus of the Missouri Ozarks, we have 4 distinct seasons, land prices are ridiculously cheap, we pay less than $400 a year in property taxes for our entire farm, and we found a small tight knit community where folks welcomed us. This area is still populated by the small family farm, mostly cattle, dairy and hay, and our entire county is sparsely populated (less than 15 people a square mile) and zoned agricultural. You can build whatever you want on your own property with no permit or inspection (except septic) and if it falls down on you its your issue...that can be good or bad depending on how you look at it. MO is an open carry state and you can carry a loaded concealed weapon in your vehicle with no permit and hunting is so big around here that the local school shuts down for the opening week of deer season.

But you have to be careful like anywhere else. There are some communities here I would never want to move to in this area. The crime rate in our county is exceptionally low and I personally have found the whole Missouri meth tag to be way over blown. We moved from Alaska where the meth problem was far worse than anything I have seen around here but it exists just like anywhere. I have never seen any bikers wearing colors but this is a popular area for riding motorcycles and they are for the most part friendly weekend warriors who have taken it upon themselves to purchase every piece of Harley leather product known to man....perhaps a business opportunity for you.

We have lived all over the country so some things just dont bother us (like snakes and spiders) so I dont know what to tell you about that not knowing you. We find them fascinating and during the summer I spend a lot of time in the woods cutting firewood and fighting brush fires as a Fireman and even then its rare to run into a poisonous snake. We arent considered right in tornado alley but we do have tornadoes in this area so if thats a huge issue then I highly suggest you work that out with yourselves before moving to virtually anywhere south of where you are now. Even Virginia has a tornado or two every year along with hurricanes (I have lived in Norfolk, Quantico, and Virginia Beach) and it would be pretty miserable if one member of the household lived in fear of the weather all the time. Also, you have to be resourceful and creative to make a living here...quite simply the economy sucks, the few jobs that are available pay low wages with no benefits, and lots of bartering goes on.

I dont know your political leanings but this is an extremely conservative and highly religious area, not that you would be harassed if your a Democrat or liberal because there are some around, its just that if it bothers you to constantly hear about how bad our current administration is or to hear prayers before and at the end of every meeting or public event this would not be the place for you. I will also state that in my county ethnic diversity doesnt go much farther than Amish.

City-data.com (Google it) is a good resource to check out demographics of various areas and there are forums on every state and I recommend that as a planning resource. Then you need to take a road trip and see for yourself to see if you would be a good fit. We started in Minnesota when we were looking and went straight down the line to Louisiana before we found our dream place here in the Missouri Ozarks but we also liked parts of Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Iowa.

Good luck in your search!

Thank you, that's the type of info I was seeking. Politically I'm well to the right of our current Republican party. And while we're not zealots in any sense we are pretty regular church goers, prayers at the supper table, etc. I shouldn't over blow the snakes/spiders thing or the tornado deal either. While we don't have tornados we do have destructive winds, ice storms or epic proportion, etc. It's a trade off.

What about state taxes? I know land taxes are low in Mo, but what about income, school, auto, sales or other taxes? I've researched it a bit but the state and county has to pay it's bills somehow.

[Batt]

Originally Posted by Bret4207

What about state taxes? I know land taxes are low in Mo, but what about income, school, auto, sales or other taxes? I've researched it a bit but the state and county has to pay it's bills somehow.

State income tax is is spread across 10 brackets from 1.5% to 6%, but it is pretty easy to hit the 6% bracket. Sales tax rate is 4.225% state wide, however, some counties and city's can add on locally. Usually to the tune of 2-3%. School and auto taxes are in your yearly "real estate" or "personal property" taxes (can't remember which}, and not usually too much, depends on the county. Think mine was around $125 personal property for last year...I included that in my former figure of <$1000.

BTW: We're just right at 1000' elevation.

[salmonslayer]

Originally Posted by Bret4207

Thank you, that's the type of info I was seeking. Politically I'm well to the right of our current Republican party. And while we're not zealots in any sense we are pretty regular church goers, prayers at the supper table, etc. I shouldn't over blow the snakes/spiders thing or the tornado deal either. While we don't have tornados we do have destructive winds, ice storms or epic proportion, etc. It's a trade off.

What about state taxes? I know land taxes are low in Mo, but what about income, school, auto, sales or other taxes? I've researched it a bit but the state and county has to pay it's bills somehow.

There is a state income tax as Batt says though there is a petition drive to eliminate it circulating right now. The personal property tax isnt much either, we have a car, trucks, tractors, a 4 wheeler, cattle, chickens, trailers etc and its only a couple hundred a year. We do have state safety inspections for vehicles which costs $12.00 and is laughable IMO as it does nothing to keep the hoopties off the road and in the big cities some have emissions inspections. Vehicle registration is a little high ($55.00 for 2 year tags). The school tax is part of your property taxes and for me it makes up 80% of my $356 property tax, I think the library gets $11.00, the healthcare tax portion is $4.64 and the county gets about $7.00. Kind of hard to complain about that.

Gas is $3.04 a gal for 87 octane unleaded right now and we usually stay well below the national average. The tobacco and alcohol tax is incredibly low (can of chew for $1.80, 750ml of Bourbon for $8.00 etc) and in my area you can legally smoke in restaurants, stores etc though most have now prohibited that except in the country places. I mention that because after living on the West Coast for 17 years we were shocked on our first trip here when a waitress asked if we wanted the smoking or no smoking section.

Another great thing about here is you pump your gas and then go in and pay (now when I stop at a pre-pay it irritates me) and if you forgot your wallet they will tell you to just start a tab or pay the next time you get gas. Lots of folks have a hard time fitting in and I think its because they wait for folks to come to them while at the same time they immediately paint everything purple and put up no trespassing signs...that can really rile the locals who feel like they are being regarded as thieves. The Ozarks are traditionally wary of outsiders but if you get involved in the community, dont complain (and never say a bad word about anyone because everyone is related), and try to fit in you will be accepted. We found that joining a church, the volunteer fire department and showing up for fundraisers to support the local senior center, school etc.went a long way to helping us get integrated and I suspect that in another 100 years or so our great great grandkids might be considered locals by some . Mostly folks just let you be who you want to be as long as your not trying to change them.

One thing I didnt mention is that this area is geographically beautiful. Its green, lots of deciduous forests (the fall colors rival the NE IMO), the limestone kharst is geologically very interesting (we have a lot of caves), and the rivers, lakes and streams are top notch. If you enjoy wildlife we have tons of deer, wild turkeys, birds of every description (including Bald Eagles in the winter), rabbits, fox, coyotes, etc etc. and even the odd black bear now and again. Our place has a steady production of flowers, flowering trees, wild grapes, blackberries and various nut trees in addition to the apple, peach, pear, plumb and cherry trees. This is also the place where there are thousands of abandoned or near abandoned homesteads, old barns, and tractors and related machinery so its a gold mine if you like to work on stuff.

[dkhern]

ss is offering good advice about locals. lots of times they can be slow to warm up. theyve seen otherss come in and try to chang everything or be standoffish some adapt and make it but many sell out in a few years and go back to wherever. if you make the effort like said it will be okay. dont forget the part about kinfolks

[Bret4207]

Sounds a lot like where I'm from. We fit in great here because this was "upscale" compared to where we came from. They actually had a Walmart up here!

Sounds like the cost of living is a lot lower there. On the posting lands, I know what you mean, but IMO I'm not buying the land for someone else to use. Had that problem here. I don;t care if your grandfather could hunt here back in '47, he worked here then too for the guy that owned it then. Maybe that riles some people, but I pay the taxes on it, I pay the mortgage on it, I'm responsible if you get hurt on it, it's mine, stay the heck off. Been that way everywhere I've lived. The townies buy ATVs and snowmobiles and monster trucks for hunting I couldn't possibly afford and can't grasp why they shouldn't have full access to my land. If that makes them mad, tough luck. Buy your own hunting land if you want to hunt or use public lands.

[dkhern]

i agree about land use and at the same time it can be a way to access other hunting areas. i have neighbors i dont mind hunting my property if i know (i targer shoot a lot dont want someone downrange and not know) they have property and i get permision to hunt theirs. this way i can select who i make offer to. i like to squirrel hunt w/dog and atv. i can hunt mine, a couisen, neighbors go out in afternoon and make a couple of mile circle lots of fun and dont have to trailer to natl forrest. just n option

[grandma12703]

Been in southern MO for 2 years and love it. I wouldn't move anywhere else now.