Deadly herbicides???

[farmerDale]

This thread is for any of you folks who have an open mind, and wish to learn about conventional farming, (from a conventional farmer nonetheless), and why I think it has a bad rap. It is also intended to be educational to anyone who wishes to learn a bit. As people of the land, we owe it to ourselves to be educated about where food comes from, and how it is grown, in a truthful manner...

See, I have seen so many threads that talk about farmers spraying gallons of this, or gallons of that. Talk of the soil dying from herbicide use, of herbicides building up in the soils over time. of "chemical laden" grains. There are many, many misconceptions out there about farming.

Of course, if anyone cares to ask me a specific question, I will do my best to help you understand conventional farming!

Following, I will state a particular myth, then disseminate it with factual information, to help to show that the disdain out there for people like me who use chemicals on our farms is seriously unfounded. But first, why on earth do I use weed killing herbicides? For many reasons, a few follow.

1. It saves the soil from tillage.
2. It allows the crop to grow without a nasty yield impediment. Did you know, that wild oats at a density of only 10 per square meter can reduce flax yields by up to 25%? This is why we use herbicides, and is part of the puzzle as to why organic yields are generally lower. We do not spray for aesthetic reasons, but for economic reasons.
3. It over time eliminates the weed seed bank, so less herbicide is needed in the longer term.

The Myth:

#1. Conventional farmers use A LOT of herbicides to kill weeds.

OK, let us look at some typical chemical application rates: Bear in mind, an acre of soil 6 inches deep (the most biologically active portion, the region where herbicide breakdown occurs), weighs about 2 000 000 pounds.

Express SG: Used prior to seeding cereal crops. Controls many broadleaf weeds.

Application rate, 4 grams per acre. Yes, I said GRAMS! In 100 years in a row of applying Express, (which you would never do anyway.), you still would not have sprayed a pound an acre cumulatively!

Horizon: Used on wheat in early growth stages to control some grassy annual weeds.

Application rate, 93 ml per acre. This is a bit more than a third of a cup an acre. To apply a gallon on an acre, one would have to apply it for 41 years.

That terrible glyphosate!!!: Used prior to planting to control broad range of weeds, or in rr crops to do same. Applied at a rate of about 180 grams an acre. At that rate, it would take about 2.5 years to reach a pound of ingredients on an acre. (had to edit my bad math) lol


I use many different herbicides, depending on the crop planted, weed issues present, and weed pressure, once per year, and my point, is that none are applied at "gallons per acre", or pounds per acre. Sometimes things work out well, and weed pressure dictates no requirement for herbicides.

Finally, remember what happens to herbicide that is applied to the land at these tiny rates. Several things occur, and act on the herbicide, depending where it lands....

1. It is digested, or synthesised by the plants. For example, in species that are not affected by a particular herbicide, the reason it is not affected, is that the plant can break the herbicide down into simple compounds. Example: horizon on wheat.

2. In target weeds, the herbicide makes its way into the soil as the weed decomposes, hence letting the soil have a go at it. Which leads to #3:

3. Herbicide that hits or lands on the soil, is bound by soil organic matter, and clay particles. Depending on the formulation, how long it lasts in the soil depends largely on: soil pH, soil organic matter content, clay content, and moisture content. Some herbicides have some soil activity, while some have less, and some have none.

4. Once the soil ties up the herbicide, soil microbes actually digest, yes, eat, and break down the herbicide.

5. As one can see, not nearly all the herbicide applied to the field, actually stays around. It breaks down, is eaten, and digested.

6. At the above application rates, and realizing that herbicides are broken down at varying rates, but broken down never-the-less, it would take a very long time for the soil to become "polluted". In fact, with todays low rate herbicides vs. yesterdays highly toxic, and high application rate chemicals, buildup of cumulative problems is a thing of the past. There used to be herbicides that had several years of residual soil activity. Thankfully we are past that, and science has moved ahead to make things better.


Just one little myth. BUSTED. For anyone who may care. I will share more myth busting facts...Myths like conventional farmers not following crop rotations, (WHAT????), using fertilizers at increasing rates like it is cocaine(I read that on here once!), dying soils, how bad fertilizer is, stuff like that. Just sharing information, because so many seem to think the amounts of products we big ag farmers apply is dousing our land. Killing our soil.

It is simply not the case. Next time you see a sprayer out in a field, realize that 99.5 plus% of what is being applied, is Brace yourself .....water.

Cheers

Dale

[gone-a-milkin]

Great idea for a thread.

Perhaps you could explain what "saving the soil from tillage" means?

Out this way they do a lot of 'no till drilling' for forage crops.
In order to prep the land for drilling the seed in, herbicides are applied to clear the slate for them.

I think a lot of people really dont understand the reasons that NOT tilling the soil might be a better option than the old way
of tilling all the old stuff in to prep the fields for new crops.

[Harry Chickpea]

I'll back up the statement about minimal use of glycophosphates. Cotton farming requires the use of it, but the amounts are minimal. I'm not talented enough to be a farmer, but I took note of that and when misting it on the driveway (about 500' long because it doglegs) I still have some remaining from the quart bottle of 42% I bought three years ago. Farmers are too smart to overuse expensive chemicals. Suburban dwellers however...

[CaliannG]

farmerDale, I do have some questions. ~smiles~

I do know farmers rotate crops (you have too, wouldn't you? Else pretty soon you wouldn't be able to grow ANYTHING, chemical fertilizer or no chemical fertilizer, right?), but I am curious what you use to prevent or treat disease?

Say on corn....there is RR ready corn, or you can do RR before planting to combat weed competition, you can get Bt corn to dissuade pests, or spray pesticides....but what about things like seedling blight, smut, stalk rot, or ear rot?

[Molly Mckee]

No one cares more about the health of the soil than the farmer who makes his living from it.

[farmerDale]

Originally Posted by gone-a-milkin

Great idea for a thread.

Perhaps you could explain what "saving the soil from tillage" means?

Out this way they do a lot of 'no till drilling' for forage crops.
In order to prep the land for drilling the seed in, herbicides are applied to clear the slate for them.

I think a lot of people really dont understand the reasons that NOT tilling the soil might be a better option than the old way
of tilling all the old stuff in to prep the fields for new crops.

No tillage will be a topic of another thread in the future. I only have typing fingers and the time, for maybe a thread a day. Sorry.

[farmerDale]

Originally Posted by CaliannG

farmerDale, I do have some questions. ~smiles~

I do know farmers rotate crops (you have too, wouldn't you? Else pretty soon you wouldn't be able to grow ANYTHING, chemical fertilizer or no chemical fertilizer, right?), but I am curious what you use to prevent or treat disease?

Say on corn....there is RR ready corn, or you can do RR before planting to combat weed competition, you can get Bt corn to dissuade pests, or spray pesticides....but what about things like seedling blight, smut, stalk rot, or ear rot?

I will post a thread about rotation of crops. The biggest reason for crop rotation is disease and insect control, and to a lesser extent, weed issues.

You don't HAVE to rotate, you just do to limit exposure to mainly disease buildup on the crop residue that is left from year to year. Regarding corn, to be honest, I am out of the corn belt, but do know that in the U.S., the rotation is very limited, ie. corn/soy/corn/soy. On my farm, and many around are similar, I grow many different crops. I have grown about 15 different crops. Bear in mind, Canadian agriculture has historically not been nearly as subsidized as American ag, and so farmers here have had to learn to grow more than two basic crops to spread out risk.

There are seed treatments you can use to control seedling diseases, smuts etc. but I don't use them, as I rotate my crops, never having the same crop on the same land, more than once in four or more years, depending. I have sprayed once for insects. The crop was flax, and it was LOADED with aphids. I had no choice as a young farmer in 1999, but to spray to save my crop. I hate spraying insecticides, they are much more lethal than herbicides, and have much more pronounced toxicity.

For disease, again, rotation eliminates the need for fungicides, generally. I rarely spray fungicides, unless for whatever reason, a rotation has been too tight. ( too few years between same crop).

Thanks for the question!

[rambler]

Originally Posted by CaliannG

farmerDale, I do have some questions. ~smiles~

I do know farmers rotate crops (you have too, wouldn't you? Else pretty soon you wouldn't be able to grow ANYTHING, chemical fertilizer or no chemical fertilizer, right?), but I am curious what you use to prevent or treat disease?

Say on corn....there is RR ready corn, or you can do RR before planting to combat weed competition, you can get Bt corn to dissuade pests, or spray pesticides....but what about things like seedling blight, smut, stalk rot, or ear rot?

Good question.

I have a 10 acre field and a 3 acre field that u have planted corn continuously for 5 and 9 years.

Why? There are theories that the stalks break down in 2 years time, and builds up the soil better than if one rotates between crops - organic matter grows quicker with cornstalks.....

Anyhow, I don't use much bt corn, I don't use corn insecticides, and have had little trouble with insects. Perhaps my neighbors do and that keeps them away in general.

However, diseases such as Goss' Wilt are showing up around the area. It's a bacteria, there really is no treatment for it, just need to let it die down again or use a few resistive types of corn if you get it. It is rare, but it is an example of what you asked about.

Years ago it was more common to plant soybeans continuously, and again, disease pressures would show up.

One deals with those when they come, you rotate to another crop, or find verities that are resistant, and work through the issue. If a problem shows up on my 9 year corn patch, then I'll grow soybeans on it for 2 years, and the problem should go away. Actually, this past year I rotated the 9 year patch to soybeans, fit into some tillage/tiling I had done. Was a nice field of beans, will go back to corn on it again this year.

Like most problems, when something goes wrong, we adapt to it, change what we are doing, make things work.

Many farmers with tough wet clay soils like I have find that corn on corn actually grows better than soybeans do. Fertilizer actually balances out again on the 3rd and future years of growing corn on corn. And if an insect or disease issue shows up, I can of course rotate to soybeans (or a minor crop of oats, wheat, alfalfa which are grown in small amounts here) to take care of the problem. I'm not locked in stone that I will force corn on corn on corn no matter what happens, how many problems crop up, how poor the crop gets.....

But mostly, corn on corn appears to yield more, and take less out of the ground, than a corn/soybean crop does on _my_ tough soil types of clay, peat, and high ph.

At least at this time. I find I am growing 2/3 corn, and almost 1/3 beans, with a little oats and alfalfa thrown in. That offers me the best return on investment, enough rotation to keep my workload and weed, insect, disease problems down, make best use of my land.

Paul

[CaliannG]

Now I am a bit confused. Paul, you do little rotation in MN. Dale, you rotate 15 different crops in Canada?

I have distant kin (2nd cousin once removed) that still farms the old family farm in Northern Kansas. Last year when I was up there for a funeral, he mentioned that he that was glad that he was on an alfalfa/wheat year with his fields, instead of a corn/soy year, as everyone's corn was dead in the field and no-one's soy had bloomed due to the drought, but his alfalfa and wheat did fine. I gathered from those comments that he rotates his fields yearly between a grain crop and a legume crop, planting half-n-half.

Now, I KNOW he isn't growing organic; he is just not the type to eschew chemicals or do anything unconventionally......so I was under the impression that the crop rotation he used was pretty standard?

Also, Dale, with 15 crops that you rotate, I am assuming that some of them are not commodity crops? Do you ever plant Brassicas? If so, have you ever had a problem with club root?

Paul, question for you: I have read a lot about polyculture, planting different crops in the same field to cut down on insect and disease problems, as the insects and diseases wouldn't have a host plant right next door to go to when they get finished with the first host plant. What are the problems with this system when it comes to modern harvesting systems?

[GrannyCarol]

Ok, I'll add a question to the mix... if farmers use so little herbicides, what is the need for RR corn or soy?

[haypoint]

Originally Posted by GrannyCarol

Ok, I'll add a question to the mix... if farmers use so little herbicides, what is the need for RR corn or soy?

As the OP stated, 180 grams of Roundup per acre to treat an acre of RR corn or RR soy. It breaks down in a matter of weeks and doesn't spread into the water table. That is a small amount of herbicide.

[wannabechef]

Originally Posted by GrannyCarol

Ok, I'll add a question to the mix... if farmers use so little herbicides, what is the need for RR corn or soy?

Because normally they used other not so environmentally friendly herbicides. I think simazine was a herbicide that was used in corn production (also orange growers) and MSMA was used in cotton production. Roundup is much much safer for the environment than either of these two.

Dale should be able to correct me if I am wrong about these two chemicals...I am going off what I think I remember on the labels since I use the same chemicals in my line of business as a licensed lawn chemical applicator.

[wannabechef]

Originally Posted by haypoint

As the OP stated, 180 grams of Roundup per acre to treat an acre of RR corn or RR soy. It breaks down in a matter of weeks and doesn't spread into the water table. That is a small amount of herbicide.

You really only use 6.3 oz (180 grams) per acre? Wow, that's a really low rate. Not sure what you are killing at that rate but when I use 41% gly I am applying at about 43 oz per acre.

[rambler]

Originally Posted by CaliannG

Now I am a bit confused. Paul, you do little rotation in MN. Dale, you rotate 15 different crops in Canada?

I have distant kin (2nd cousin once removed) that still farms the old family farm in Northern Kansas. Last year when I was up there for a funeral, he mentioned that he that was glad that he was on an alfalfa/wheat year with his fields, instead of a corn/soy year, as everyone's corn was dead in the field and no-one's soy had bloomed due to the drought, but his alfalfa and wheat did fine. I gathered from those comments that he rotates his fields yearly between a grain crop and a legume crop, planting half-n-half.

Now, I KNOW he isn't growing organic; he is just not the type to eschew chemicals or do anything unconventionally......so I was under the impression that the crop rotation he used was pretty standard?

Also, Dale, with 15 crops that you rotate, I am assuming that some of them are not commodity crops? Do you ever plant Brassicas? If so, have you ever had a problem with club root?

Paul, question for you: I have read a lot about polyculture, planting different crops in the same field to cut down on insect and disease problems, as the insects and diseases wouldn't have a host plant right next door to go to when they get finished with the first host plant. What are the problems with this system when it comes to modern harvesting systems?

Farming from one county to the next is different, but an alfalfa crop is always a 3 to 7 year deal 'here' so it's a different sort of rotation, not year to year.

Wheat one can use a lot of different broadleaf herbicides. There are a few grass-killing herbicides for it, if you spray them early enough. Not so familiar with wheat.

Corn, you could use 2, 4-D or dicomba early on to kill the broadleaves, they last in the environment a few months. Both like to drift and vaporize if there is a temperature inversion and in higher temps, and are bad news for tomatoes and other sensitive crops, sensitive cotton too for those of you in the south.

There were several variations of grass killers for corn based on atrazine, works _very_ well but because it sticks in the environment for a couple of years, it doesn't break down easily so we have been encouraged not to use it, bad for the environment. Especially bad for sandy areas with shallow ground water.

Soybeans it's easy to kill grasses in them, several good sprays based on 'Select' that kills grasses on beans, even works on most garden crops, very very common herbicide, has many different names.

Much harder to kill broadleaves in soybeans, you typically have to mix up a cocktial of 3 or 4 different ones that work on a few f these weeds, a few of those weeds, and so on. Some last a bit of time in the ground.

There are also several herbicides that you can spray several weeks before you plant a crop, they suppress the weed seeds from sprouting. They mix in the soil and stay there for a month or 2. Your crop can grow through them, but the weed seeds are affected. Since they last so long in the soil, we all have tried to avoid these when we have alternatives, and one of the big selling points of Roundup is that we don't need these long-lasting chemicals much any more, we don't have to put stuff on the ground that sticks around so long.

These are the things used to kill weeds since the 1960's, and have been largely replaced by Roundup. Roundup is far less persistant, breaks down more quickly, and is targeted more to just green plants, not interacting with mammals so much.

Again, Roundup is a herbicide, but it is, in all the tests we've seen, been less of a problem than the above list of herbicides.

So - to us farmers, the overwhelming opposition to Roundup and GMOs is puzzling. We don't see why anyone would want to return to the past, and the many different herbicides we used to use. That is just odd?

Now, with resistant weeds showing up for Roundup in some areas, we are returning to a bit of the old sprays. They are combining them, adding buffers and safeners, and cutting the rates to 1/4 or so of what used to be used, and so we are starting to use a little of the old chemicals, and a little of the Roundup chemicals, and getting a better control of the weeds and using only a little of the old chemicals, and using a tad less of the new chemicals.

That is why you will see different rates used by different people, as they have different herbicide programs.

Some new GMO products just out or soon to be are Liberty Link crops (similar idea to Roundup, but totally different chemical); dicomba resistant soybeans, and 2,4-D resistant soybeans. The last 2 will allow us to use some of the old chemicals on soybeans to control broadleaves in them.

Will there be problems? You bet. Some will try to spray 2,4-D on both corn and resistant soybeans year in and year out, and we will have some weeds build up resistance to 2,4-D I'm sure. And yup, we are returning to using some more of the older chemicals, which I just said were a bit harsher or worse for the environment.

But also, they have found slightly different formulations of those chemicals, types that don't drift as bad, and can use less of them, and so on, so it's not exactly returning to the 1960s, it's better than that.

In short, while the weeds keep changing, we keep changing wht we do as well.


Polyculture. I probably do as much of that in my county as any farmer, and I only plant 10 acres of a mix of oats, alfalfa, clover, peas, and turnips each year. Swath and harvest the oats, bale the straw, let the cattle graze on the turnips and alfalfa and clover. The peas seem to add N to the oats just when it needs it.

But that is a minor patch of ground.

Corn, soybeans, and wheat are the crops demanded by the USA and the world, and there is no good way to intercrop them at the same time and make any sort of timely harvest possible.

Except for a few oddball fields like my oats and grazing patch, polyculture only works in areas that have way too much free labor available. Like homesteader with a couple of acres, you love to be out in your garden or field so you don't count your time spent on raising the crop, can make that work. In an honest accounting of all the costs and the yields of a polycutlture patch, you'd find it yields less and costs more than a 80 acre field of pure corn, beans, or wheat.

Doesn't mean I'm against polyculture, if I had a 9-5 job I'd probably spend my evenings working on such a system a couple 100 feet square, works great if you have the time and a small bit of land. Just not a system that is going to feed downtown Chicago.

--->Paul

[haypoint]

Originally Posted by wannabechef

You really only use 6.3 oz (180 grams) per acre? Wow, that's a really low rate. Not sure what you are killing at that rate but when I use 41% gly I am applying at about 43 oz per acre.

At the rate you apply, you are putting about 17 1/2 oz per acre.
43 oz X .41=17.63 oz of active ingredient.
Depending on the size of your crop and amount of weeds, a portion goes onto the soil and is quickly rendered harmless. Takes a couple weeks for the rest of the chemical to break down.

[GrannyCarol]

I'm sorry if it sounded snarky, that was not my intent. I probably shouldn't post late when I'm tired. What I wanted to know was what difference RR corn and soy actually makes to the farmer.

[wannabechef]

Originally Posted by haypoint

At the rate you apply, you are putting about 17 1/2 oz per acre.
43 oz X .41=17.63 oz of active ingredient.
Depending on the size of your crop and amount of weeds, a portion goes onto the soil and is quickly rendered harmless. Takes a couple weeks for the rest of the chemical to break down.

Oh, you are basing off the active I was basing off the label rate of 1oz per K of product for general weed control. I also use rates as low as 1 pint per acre of product for weed control in bermuda lawns.

[Steve L.]

Originally Posted by GrannyCarol

I'm sorry if it sounded snarky, that was not my intent. I probably shouldn't post late when I'm tired. What I wanted to know was what difference RR corn and soy actually makes to the farmer.

farmerDale, Rambler, correct me where I'm wrong.

Conventional -
Plow
Till/spray Atrazine @ ~ 1 lb AI/acre
plant
cultivate 2x
harvest

6 trips over the field, and, because Atrazine is persistent, if you lose your stand to frost, etc., you're limited to replanting to a crop that tolerates Atrazine.

RR + no-till -
'till' with zone maker (maybe?)
plant
spray RR @ 6.3 oz AI/acre
harvest

3 - 4 trips over the field, and, because RR is not persistent, if you lose your stand to frost, etc., you're not limited in what you replant.

I'm guessing that RR is cheaper per acre than Atrazine, too.

[Steve L.]

farmerDale, in the OP, are all of the rates AI?

[farmerDale]

Originally Posted by CaliannG

Now I am a bit confused. Dale, you rotate 15 different crops in Canada?


Also, Dale, with 15 crops that you rotate, I am assuming that some of them are not commodity crops? Do you ever plant Brassicas? If so, have you ever had a problem with club root?

I do not rotate the 15 crops year to year, but over the course of 4 years or so, I could have up to 15 or more different crops planted. Some are kind of interchangeable. I grow several cereal crops, which fit at the same place in rotation: Wheat, barley, oats, canaryseed, and rye are examples. Legumes include clover, alfalfa, field peas, faba beans. Flax is kind of a type of crop to itself.

My main crop which generally comprises 25% ish per cent of my acres, is canola, which is a brassica crop. I also grow yellow mustard, another brassica. Club root has not been a problem yet, but it is moving in, especially when you tighten rotations.

The only non-commodity crop I grow is the alfalfa which is used to feed my sheep. I sell the other crops to whoever buys them. I also use my oats, barley, flax, rye, wheat, peas, etc., in small amounts as feed for my stock, but the great majority is produced for sale.

Great questions!