Clear cut timber tips

[Prismseed]

5 acres. Logging/milling company is coming in and taking down everything. Also runs a mulch business so everything felled in leaving one way or another. Stumps will also be ground down to about 2" high.

Company is insured, and will handle all the paperwork.

Any previous experience/tips/warnings?

I would like to turn it all into workable farmland, but I'm waiting on removing stumps since that is a hassle with the state forestry and soil erosion rules.

[ArmyDoc]

Can give you several thoughts from my own recent esperience.

1) there will be more debrise than you expect - the fact that they run a much business not withstanding.
2) you need to be ready when they finish with a plan for what to do with the area when they are done, or your going to be playing catch up with the brush that springs up rapidly once the pine is cleared.
- when will they be done? plan on a month or two later
- do you have a tractor?
- will you be in a position to plant?
- soil will be acidic - if you can have your lime arranged you can treat it, and let it set for a month or so be for planting. Be ware, some people expect to be applying on a pasture, and wont drive over stumps and what not....
- seems to be two options - wait a year or two - the branches etc will begin to rot and thne you can disk it and chop up the branches before moving on to the next phase
or rake it and burn it.
- you will want get something down to control erosion either way

You can convert trees to pasture quickly, if you have the money. A forest mucher runs $200/hour, but leaves a beautiful clear bed that you can lime and plant in. I don't have that kind of money. I'll be bush-hogging several times a year to keep brush down while trying to get grass established, then cherry picking stumps in 3-5 years after the roots rot. Alonger process, but we will get there.

[Prismseed]

The wood is vast majority oak and maple. Wouldn't the soil be less acidic than pine?

[Prismseed]

Some thoughts I have thus far...

Plant in green manure, dig in or just let go to prevent other growth.

Debris the neighbors can take for firewood or I'll burn it for ash as a soil additive. (ashes are alkaline and lower acidity right?)

Drill and router out the insides of the stumps and plant something inside like bushes or vines.

Suppose I should stop in at the local soil conservancy and see if they offer any tips.

[big rockpile]

You will still be dealing with Roots for a couple years but I think the way you are going about this is Good.Might want to Lime the Soil.And might think if you have time put it in Grass for Pasture give the Roots time to rot down.

big rockpile

[Bearfootfarm]

The wood is vast majority oak and maple. Wouldn't the soil be less acidic than pine?

No
Oak is full of Tannic Acid

[SeaGoat]

The SO is a logger and has worked for his family run logging business for over 10 years..


If I was you, I would see a couple places theyve cleared, recent.
Some logging companies will leave a MESS that seem impossible..

There was some work done down the road that looks like explosives were used. They were very sloppy and unprofessional.
The SO and them have a chipper and chip everything they can, but he said there is always going to be some left over debris. If you dont want to pay dump fees, or want to wait till you the stumps dug, have them push it up in a neat pile where you want it.


And ask about their schedule. The faster they have to get in and out of there the sloppier its going to be. That being said, I wouldnt try to rush rush rush them either.

[fishhead]

I don't think that oak forest soil is as acidic as pine.

Yes ash is alkaline like lime.

Another thing you can do to speed up the decomposition of the stumps is to auger holes in the stumps and pour in some nitrogen fertilizer or cover them in chicken manure. You might also try augers holes in the stumps and packing mushrooms in the holes to innoculate them.

[texican]

Not going to have pasture for several years, and lots of work... or you could spend 500 to a thousand an acre, have a dozer and/or trackhoe come in and pull the stumps (grinding em down is a waste of time... they'll resprout and (if hardwood) linger for decades... Hopefully the money earned from the timber will make a dent in the conversion process. Imho, if one wants pasture or farmland, buy it... converting mature forests is a time consuming expensive process.

Until a dozer goes over it, it'll look like a scene from WWI's trench warfare...

[Terrabus]

I always wondered about this subject. I guess that's why my buddy's grandpa never let us play with his box he called his "special stump remover".

[Spotted Owl]

What ever anyone is to do or any work that is to be done, get everything in writing down to the very last detail. As all brush to the diameter of 1/2" or whatever will be removed from property, rubber tires or tracks, easements, neighboring property damage, time lines, who does what and everyone who does work get to have their own contract of what they will be doing. Everything in writing. I have logged, cut timber and ran sales for the last 20 years for my self and others. Get everything in writing, black and white. If it's hardwoods it will be years before you have anything close to workable farm land. Even decent pasture ground is going to take longer than you think. Call some companies to find out what they use for stump rot, you want that accelerated as possible. Coring and planting the stumps isn't going to do much for you for a good long while. Also find out who is responsible for erosion and for how long are they responsible, know the legal minimums for your area.

Bottom line in my experience, bend over cause you're gonna get it in the end. Unless you are very diligent to the smallest detail. Sorry to say it but I have seen it time and time again, it's not good but it is what happens. The only one that is your friend in this game is you, make no mistake on that.



Owl

[Paquebot]

Oak and maple forest soil would not be acidic from the trees, no worry there. All acidity in leaves and pine needles is temporary and the soil will revert to whatever it was before forestation. In oak, tannic acid is found primarily in the bark and leaves. After removal of the tree leaves as an acidic buffer, then only the rain will prevent the pH from going higher.

Oak and maple don't easily sprout from stumps, also no worry there. 2" stump is death to both but if there's a grinder involved, they should do a proper job and go down at least 8". That wouldn't make it as easy to plow as a grass prairie but one could do a major number with a shallow chisel plow or a heavy disk. It would be good enough so that you could plant something for a few years which doesn't need to have a field totally devoid of foreign material.

Martin

[fishhead]

I've been hearing the big potato farmers are buying up hundreds of acres of forest land in MN and scraping it clear to start growing spuds.

[rambler]

Wow, potatoes need clear ground, that must be a conversion process.

In my exprience maple trees re-grow from the trunk, so you'll have some issies getting the stumps dead before they start rotting. There ar emany roots under ground, so tillage/ working the land will be tough for many years. A heavy disk will be your friend.

--->Paul

[rockhound]

Here in middle TN we have a lot of oaks that will sprout out 5-6 new tops after being cut, depending on time of year. That makes for some pretty thick brushy areas. I would run some goats on it in a small area at a time, fenced with elec fence. Let them strip it and then move them. Learn the local plants that will kill goats. Rhododrendron, some ferns, bloodroot (rumor). I know one fellow here that had several goats die after running them in woods. (there is a possibility of course that he bought sick goats) Maybe county agent could help with that.

[big rockpile]

Ok I got to thinking.First I wouldn't grind the Stumps,give a Dozer something to get ahold of.Tops can be used for Firewood,$100-$200 a Cord.After bulk is cleaned up get a Dozer in burn whats left.Get Soil Test plant in Pasture or Hay,either way Mow once a year and Spray what Sprouts that come up.

Years ago here they would spray Agent Orange on thousands of acres of Forest to kill it.Turn Goats out on it to keep down anything that might sprout,then put Turkeys on it to Fertilize it.All the time cutting Firewood.After all this burn it.Then plant in Pasture.Not saying this was right just the way they did years ago took time.

big rockpile

[Copperhead]

I am currently in the middle of turning forest into pasture. I cut the trees for firewood and leave the stumps as low as I can get them. Then, I fence the area with high-tensile electric to contain GOATS!!! I am a firm believer in 6-strand high-tensile electric with wires 1,3,5 (from the ground) being very HOT and wires 2,4,6 being GROUND. I space them every 8 inches, my goats are Boer and Kiko, and my fence is 6,000 to 10,000 volts, depending on which pasture it may be. Goats are awesome! They quickly devour the hardwood sprouts, blackberries, multi-floral rose and weeds, only reluctantly nibbling the sprouting grass and hardly never touching any clover that may arise.

If it was mine, I'd be out with my shoulder spreader putting down a mix of grasses and clover seed as soon as the heavy equipment was out of the way -- you know what works in your area. Ask the dozer operators to crush or disperse the larger piles of debris. It would take me a week of solid work to fence 5 acres, but I cheat as much as I'm able and screw my insulators directly to every tree on (or near) the property line. I also staple my ground wires to these trees. A tree close enough to make a corner is worth hundreds of dollars in saved time, labor and materials!!!

For 5 acres, you will want 5 to 10 mature goats. I would even consider allowing the acreage to grow up and get brushy before turning in the goats -- actually considering how hard it is to find goats around here, by the time I acquired them, the pasture would probably be waist deep -- which is awesome!!! Goats will eat things that are somewhat poisonous to them, but as long as they also have other, healthy things to eat, the poison will be diluted and not accumulate in their system. Some say "Variety is the Spice of Life" . . . others say "Dilution is the Solution to Pollution".

Cattle are the next logical step, especially as the the goats deplete the brush and the broadleaf weeds and grass take over. Pigs and sheep are certainly fine options as well. For 5 acres, you should be able to do well buying a "Cow-calf combo" which is actually 3 cows if the Momma is pregnant again! Just remember, Multi-Species Grazing is cutting edge technology!!! If the 5 acres was close to the house, I would even add chickens!!!

This spring, I fenced 20 acres of very brushy cow pasture to contain goats. The pasture was so brushy, that the brush was outgrowing the grass, shading it and destroying it. I was able to acquire 17 goats. 2 are fine Billies, 3 were wethers, and 6 are mature does, 6 are immature doelings. 2 of the wethers didn't adapt to pasture, so we brought them home, put them in the barn, fattened them on grain, and sent them to market. We also lost 1 doeling to White Muscle Disease (selenium deficiency) which we interpreted as another "failure to adapt" since we had free choice goat minerals available which contained an ample supply of selenium. This year, the woody brush has been seriously stunted. Its kinda funny seeing sparse, spindly Autumn Olive explode into a bushy "coontail" of brush once it grew higher than the 5-7 feet that a goat can reach. These sprouts were easily broken down to goat level which quickly added me to 15 different "Best Friend" lists!!!

Last year, the pasture was depleted and out of grass for 5 cows in late October. This year, with 10 cows, a horse, an a rotational grazing pattern, the majority of my pasture is as thick and green now as it was in the Spring when I turned out. Not bad for being in a drought!!!

Now, about those pigs . . .

[Ken in Maine]

We had our land clear cut to make pasture about 6 years ago. We had a variety of maple, oak, pine and hemlock. Our logger did a fantastic job, Everything was chopped up for "bio-mass" and nothing remained. They paid us $2.00 per ton.

We browsed about 125 boer goats for a couple years and they kept all the suckers eaten down and all looked nice. From experience pine and hemlock don't give off regrowth but maple and oak send up a large number of shoots.

Since we stopped browsing goats most all has grown up so that it is very difficult to walk through what was to become pasture. It is really important to get rid of all the stumps if you don't want things to revert to their wild nature.

The area closest to the house has been stumped and is now beautiful lawn. The goats took a very weedy area and after a couple years turned it into a pleasant dooryard.

[DaleK]

I just cringe whenever I see someone talk about cutting stumps short or grinding them in the process of clearing land. If you can't get permission to pull the stumps, better to wait until you can (or take it as a hint that it's land that shouldn't be cleared). It's so much cheaper and cleaner in the long run to just get an excavator with a thumb in and do it right the first time, let the operator use the tree as leverage to pop the stump out nice and clean, put them in a row so someone can cut the stumps off, then pile the brush and stumps up to let them dry.

By cutting the trees now and grinding them
1)You're going to be paying for the grinding. You won't see a bill but there's no way it isn't coming out of what you get paid
2)You're making the stumps much harder to remove later. Leverage is your friend. When the leverage is gone you're going to have to dig. More expensive, and bigger holes to fill in.
3)You're missing out on income while you're waiting to take the stumps out.

[Paquebot]

If the stumps are ground as deep as I mentioned, 8", they won't exist as a problem for later. All that will remain is roots and they don't last as long as regular wood when dead. Soil bacteria reduces them to humus very quickly.

Martin