Pondering paypal fraud....

[bluemoonluck]

I've read a lot of threads on here lately about eBay and PayPal and people who will scam using them. Now I only sell small items on eBay (if it's worth over $50 I sell on Craigslist or some other venue) because last time I sold something for $100 on eBay the seller claimed she never got it and eBay gave her her money back, courtesy of my bank account. That was also the last time I didn't send a package with tracking - not making THAT mistake ever again!

But I hate that Craigslist is so much more inconvenient than eBay, and I'd like to sell a few things of higher value there... if I wasn't so darn worried about some nitwit scamming me.

So I was thinking: If I were to sell an item on eBay, and the buyer said they were unsatisfied with it and wanted a refund, and I said "no refunds" because that's my policy, then the buyer complained to eBay and got their money back but did NOT send me back the item (this is a common scam I hear a LOT of people complain about)....couldn't I call the police and file a report for theft?

The person has acknowledged that they have received the item.
The person has gotten their money back.
The person is supposed to send the item back to me but has not.

Isn't that theft? If I walk into WalMart to return an item because I'm not satisfied with it and they give me my money back and I start to walk out of the store with the item AND my money, won't they stop me for shoplifting?

I don't see why sellers can't call the police department for the place where the buyer lives (you had to have their name and address to ship it to them in the first place!) and report a theft

Am I missing something here?

[Alice In TX/MO]

I'm a former debate coach, and here's the flaws I see. This is not an attack, it's brainstorming.

Tracking simply means the package was delivered somewhere. You can't prove the buyer got it.

If ebay sends the money back, is the buyer responsible? or is ebay?

Filing a police report isn't reducing paperwork.

[buffalocreek]

Good luck in finding cops anywhere who will respond to your complaint.

[grandma12703]

Originally Posted by bluemoonluck

I've read a lot of threads on here lately about eBay and PayPal and people who will scam using them. Now I only sell small items on eBay (if it's worth over $50 I sell on Craigslist or some other venue) because last time I sold something for $100 on eBay the seller claimed she never got it and eBay gave her her money back, courtesy of my bank account. That was also the last time I didn't send a package with tracking - not making THAT mistake ever again!

But I hate that Craigslist is so much more inconvenient than eBay, and I'd like to sell a few things of higher value there... if I wasn't so darn worried about some nitwit scamming me.

So I was thinking: If I were to sell an item on eBay, and the buyer said they were unsatisfied with it and wanted a refund, and I said "no refunds" because that's my policy, then the buyer complained to eBay and got their money back but did NOT send me back the item (this is a common scam I hear a LOT of people complain about)....couldn't I call the police and file a report for theft?

The person has acknowledged that they have received the item.
The person has gotten their money back.
The person is supposed to send the item back to me but has not.

Isn't that theft? If I walk into WalMart to return an item because I'm not satisfied with it and they give me my money back and I start to walk out of the store with the item AND my money, won't they stop me for shoplifting?

I don't see why sellers can't call the police department for the place where the buyer lives (you had to have their name and address to ship it to them in the first place!) and report a theft

Am I missing something here?

I quit selling on ebay for the exact reasons you mention. I sold some china and in my add it said that you had 5 days to return for money back if not satisfied. Lady sent email claiming the china was broken so I said that it is fine just send me the pieces and I will return your money promptly. Never got a thing back....she filed a complaint and I countered. Ebay did not return her money but I got a hit on my ratings which makes a huge difference on who will buy from you.

I know she was trying to scam me and keep the china and get her money back. I offered to pay shipping back and everything but nothing.

Also, sold a stereo...took a photo before sending it. Claimed it didn't work when they received it so I said to send it back and I would refund immediately. I did get it back but with parts missing. I refunded the money to not have the fight but sent the before and after pics to ebay and all correspondence. The buyer can no longer buy on ebay.

It is just a hassle and unfortunately there is not a lot of legal avenues. I guess we live and learn.

[Darren]

If the US mail is used for fraud you may be able to get the postal inspectors involved. I'm not sure how willing they will be to follow up on an internet sale even if it involved shipping through the post office. You already know you need to use tracking on everything of value.

Ebay seems to have changed the policy for sellers recently. Does that help?

I would also suggest using a bank account for Paypal purposes only and normally keep almost zero money in it. Set it up so the bank will not pay an overdraft. That way eBay can't automatically return the money to a buyer. EBay is probably going to be upset about that. That may force them to change their policy. Obviously eBay wants to coddle buyers and let sellers sink or swim on their own.

Perhaps you need to adopt a no return policy. Buy insurance for breakables. Give them the insurance number and tell them they need to contact (try to defraud) the post office. Only the dumbest scammer will try that. Yeah, I know the insurance works for the purchaser only.

File a formal complaint with the Federal Trade Commission. If we all complain about eBay's policy when eBay is party to a fraud, there's a very slight chance it may do some good eventually.

Check feedback religiously. What's eBay's policy on declining bids? I'm amazed by the conditions sellers attach to some of the auctions. Obviously they've either been burnt or they're trying to avoid being burnt. Is there anything here that would be of use to you for the future. Can you reserve the right to reject any bid if a buyer has feedback of less than 100%?

Check the ID history. I get the feeling some buyers dump old IDs and use new ones to conceal negative feedback. Can you require a minimum number of eBay buys before allowing a buyer to bid?

It seems getting ripped off occasionally is part of the eBay experience. It's like anything else. How safe do you want to be? That adds work and more stress for you too.

[MJsLady]

Bluemoon, I have quit ebay and payola pal for this reason.
I had a buyer get my phone and a week afterward claimed it didn't work.
Why not tell me immediately?
I offered a refund of the purchase price if she sent it back and I found it did not work. She went to ebay.
They refunded the whole thing.
Trouble is what I sent was an unlocked phone what i got had a verzion card. Plus it was chipped and damaged so that it did not resemble what we shipped. I told them that. They have done nothing.
I told ebay I refused to refund and they tried to take my money anyway. However I never have trusted them, so I had closed the account my paypal was on and all they got was the $2 I had left in paypal (I used the pp debit to get a money order to deposit into my real account)

I am looking for other venues to sell craft and other books and china and toys and such. I will not deal with a business who thinks it is their right to over rule MY decisions on MY business.

[foxtrapper]

The police will tell you it's a civil matter, not a criminal matter, and give you no satisfaction.

Not a new story or idea, this has been hashed over and over again with ebay and scammy buyers.

[Molly Mckee]

The problem with tracking is that many PO employee's will put the package on the porch or hang it on a rural mailbox where anyone can steal it. IMO tracking means nothing. Require a signed receipt.

[bluemoonluck]

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

Tracking simply means the package was delivered somewhere. You can't prove the buyer got it.

Exactly.

I'm thinking more along the lines of cases where you have emails from the buyer admitting they received the item, then going thru ebay to force a refund - and never returning the item.

I figured there was no way to prosecute.....just curious if anyone had ever tried.

[mom in oklahoma]

What about if it had to be signed for? we had to do that to a credit company, then did not buy furniture on credit anymore lol

[motdaugrnds]

Why not ship the items via "Certified Mail, Return Receipt Required" and charge buyer for a portion of that, letting it be known up front this is a security issue for both parties (seller and buyer).

[Ken Scharabok]

I'd make a SWAG I've done over 30,000 eBay and/or PayPal transactions. Significant problems. Maybe less than a dozen.

[shepmom]

Ken, what is SWAG?

[plowjockey]

Originally Posted by bluemoonluck

I've read a lot of threads on here lately about eBay and PayPal and people who will scam using them. Now I only sell small items on eBay (if it's worth over $50 I sell on Craigslist or some other venue) because last time I sold something for $100 on eBay the seller claimed she never got it and eBay gave her her money back, courtesy of my bank account. That was also the last time I didn't send a package with tracking - not making THAT mistake ever again!

But I hate that Craigslist is so much more inconvenient than eBay, and I'd like to sell a few things of higher value there... if I wasn't so darn worried about some nitwit scamming me.

You say it was a scam (and maybe it was), but do you have any proof she did indeed receive the package?

Things get lost, stolen off porches, etc.

On your second point, if you state "no refunds" and they are "unhappy", too bad, but if they start making a fuss, then it should go to eBay's dispute resolution.

Then it would (should) be determined. if your listed item was significantly not at described SNAD - it was black, not blue, all scratched up ,verses "minor scratches", fits a Chevy, not a Ford. etc.

You do have some power here, if your item was described well.

Great reason to describe items for sale, down to the last scratch, scuff or rust flake - with lots of pictures.

[julieq]

Wow, we haven't had any problems buying or selling on Ebay all these, or any problems with PayPal really. I'm feeling pretty blessed here.

[clovis]

I, too, have had very few problems on ebay, and out of almost 5,000 feedbacks, I just got my first neg last summer. Of course it was from a crazy guy trying to demand significantly different shipping and packing.

At the same time, I am very leery about selling high end and expensive items on ebay for the exact reasons in the OP. I simply refuse to take the risk of losing something too expensive to a scammer.

[bluemoonluck]

Originally Posted by plowjockey

You say it was a scam (and maybe it was), but do you have any proof she did indeed receive the package?

I messaged her to let her know it had been shipped the day I mailed it and she immediately messaged back to ask if I had insured it, "just in case" she didn't get it .

I told her no, BUT pointed out that I did have insurance listed as an option in my check-out and she didn't choose it . She then asked what would happen if she didn't get the package, and I told her that I'd NEVER in years of eBaying had a package not make it where it was going, but since she hadn't purchased the optional insurance AND my listing stated "once I deliver the item to the USPS I am not responsible for it. Please note that I do offer optional insurance and/or delivery confirmation at check-out" (mind you, this was probably 5 years ago).

Wonder of wonders, the package never made it to her . She went straight to eBay and even though I had a receipt from the USPS showing I'd mailed it, they refunded her money to her.

So while I didn't have a spy cam at this lady's door, I'm pretty sure that she got the package and intended to scam me from the get-go.

[Ken Scharabok]

WAG = Wild A** Guess
SWAG = Scientific Wild A** Guess (just slightly more refined than a WAG)

Years ago I got a counterfeit money order. Wrote to the County Prosecutor in the county they were located. Apparently others did the same. Eventually guy was arrested, tried and spent something like 60-days in jail, plus forfeiture of Internet-related equipment and restitution (which came to about $.60 in my case).

Recently eBay notified me they were overturning a prior decision in favor of buyer in light of buyer's history of filing for non-receipt.

eBay and PayPal fees creep up about one percent a year. For me last year they were $ 18.8 % of gross.

[DryHeat]

Over the past years I thought I was being very careful, to the point of paranoia, to make sure I'd not given PayPal information or access to ANY bank account or credit card. Yesterday I rather accidentally clicked past "pay with gift card" areas to complete an eBay purchase and was stunned to see both my main business checking account and credit card listed as the two options from which PayPal was happily ready to slurp up my money. I know I'd given that info to eBay itself far in the past but hadn't noticed in their various fine print updates to terms since taking over PayPal that they'd just do me the favor of linking the info into their system. I guess I'll be jumping through the hoops to link a small, nearly-empty (now that I made a transfer yesterday) checking account into PayPal and de-authorize my big account. Dunno about the credit card, I'd hope they'd be on my side should one of these reported outright PayPal disasters involve me. Since I haven't done any eBay selling for several years now, I don't think I'm particularly at risk, but still...

[DryHeat]

And regarding criminal prosecution of fraud: as has been posted earlier, most LE entities regard losses of amounts under something like $10K as to be handled by civil lawsuits even if it's clear to the victims that there's criminal intent. Maybe if some online scammer hits people for 20 or 30 $500 bogus sales or fake certified checks in a row someone would open a criminal investigation but mostly you're on your own. None of the agencies can justify the cost of investigations and prosecution, essentially, unless there are a lot of victims of smallish losses AND the perp can be located easily. *Proof* of criminal intent rather than just "carelessness" or "confusion" or "honest mistake" is necessary for a criminal conviction and it appears that the rawest public defender can sway a jury too easily that there's a reasonable doubt on that point. For online fraud situations, too, the perp can just sit silently while the defender hammers on a prosecutor to *prove* that the defendant was the actual human who typed things onto a computer. Are you sure it wasn't a spouse or child who used the account? etc.