Questions about electricity

PrettyPaisley · #1 08/02/12, 10:16 PM

First, I am not foolish. I have plenty of respect for electricians and know the work takes education and skills. And that one wrong move can kill you.

That said, I am having a heck of a time finding someone who will come install electricity in our barn. The guy who built the barn has moved back to Virginia. The man he referred has not returned my call. The man who I used at our old house (about 30 miles away) won't come out this far. I had one guy come give me an estimate for $2250 and didn't call to follow up after he sent it so I assume he didn't want the work. Had another guy come out (the DH of a woman with whom I work) and it's been 1.5 weeks and he called Monday to tell me there was a death in the family and he'd call me by Tuesday with an estimate. You guessed it, so far I've heard nothing.

We get two electric bills; we have a box on the house and the well is on a separate poll. The pole is about 300FT from the barn. Realistically speaking, is installing a panel in the barn that is connected to that poll something I can do given the right information? If I did need to hire someone (and couldn't conjure one up with voodoo) could I just request they connect the panel and let me do the rest?

I really need to get some light down there. The days are going to be getting short soon and I'm going to need to see what's going on down there.

salmonslayer · #2 08/02/12, 10:36 PM

It kind of depends on what the building codes are there. I do all our electrical work and its not terribly hard but then we dont have any codes or inspection requirements and I have seen a lot of scary lash ups around here. If you follow the NEC you shouldnt have any trouble and what I would advise is that you do the work yourself and then have someone come in and inspect you (its probably a requirement anyway) before any live power is connected. You may be shocked though at the price of wire now days.

nathan104 · #3 08/02/12, 10:55 PM

Its pretty simple to do yourself. Just get a good book and do some research online.

||Downhome|| · #4 08/03/12, 12:15 AM

If all you want is light a few solar panels and a battery or two should suffice and probably be cheaper.

If it was Me, I'd wire it to code, receptacles where you want them, even a breaker box for your expected service.do the batteries, hook up a charging source and run a inverter direct.

Latter if you decide you need more service, should be a little less on the hook up.
I know electricians that would sign off on the work and pull permits and only charge a fraction of the bill.

you could even go the harbor fright route and get some of their outdoor solar lights and do a slight retrofit, that is locate the panel out side and put the light in. not too hard. may be a cheaper and easier route yet.

rambler · #5 08/03/12, 12:16 AM

If you are good at following instructions and paying attention to detail, putting in some lights and a plugin or 2 isn't too difficult.

Laying in the service maybe a pro should handle. There are issues with getting the grounding right, insulating the ground bar from the nuetral bar, and so on. Very few people who do their own wiring grasp these consepts, and they set up a trap waiting for decades to hurt someone. On here a lot of people still think you can cross-wire the nutral and the ground wires any which way, and a while ago a person was just fine with stringing the wires through some trees instead of getting poles or going underground.

So, I'd be _Real_ careful trying to follow any wiring 'help' you got from this site.....

--->Paul

geo in mi · #6 08/03/12, 07:04 AM

I am not an electrician, and this isn't instruction, but if you have a circuit breaker box at the pole to the pump, and an available circuit there, then it shouldn't be too hard to go to the barn with a wire for a light and maybe one receptacle. A basic home wiring book from Lowe's or Menard's would give you pictures to do the job. You will need to buy some fairly heavy guage wiring, though, since a long distance will cause a voltage drop that only a heavy wire can overcome. You may also need some poles to support the wire. And a proper insulated entry thru the barn wall, plus a dustproof(encased in glass) light fixture.

I think I would consult the yellow pages some more, though, for a qualified electrician--then you can sleep better at night, and your insurance company will like you--your animals and hay bales, too......(but the book knowlege will help you negotiate with the contractor about prices..)

geo

JohnP · #7 08/03/12, 07:04 AM

45 Watt Solar Panel Kit

On sale for 189.00 get the 2 year extended warranty, pick up at store if possible cuz they usually break in shipping

2 golf cart batteries $250

200 watt Inverter (UL Listed) also harbor freight $20

4 foot shop light or two $20 each

There's supposed to be a 300 watt inverter that is made to plug right into the panel kit but I didn't see it on site. The kit actually comes with two lights but I don't know how bright they are.
2 golf cart batts may be a bit much for 45 watts but 2 are req to get 12 volt and golf cart batts are true deep cycle to last years. You could get 2 solar kits for 90 watts better. Plus you'd have an extra charge controller and those are supposed to be the weak spot in these kits. Plus you'd get 4 lights which may be enough so you wouldn't have to get shop lights.

$700 and you'd have a solar barn. Or you could get one kit and a rv/marine batt and you'd have $300 into it. Use 12 volt fluorescent and you won't even need an inverter.

Alice In TX/MO · #8 08/03/12, 07:15 AM

I wouldn't do it on a bet. Electricity is for professionals. Just my dos pesos.

Or do solar as mentioned above.

WileEcoyote · #9 08/03/12, 07:27 AM

I am a master electrician in Iowa. I know it can be difficult finding someone who will work out of town. Be careful doing this yourself, while it is a pretty easy install for someone like me most non-electricians may miss a few important safety points.

I'm not defending the no shows you have been getting, but running a electrical contractor outside city limits is very difficult. Everyone wants a deal, and nobody wants to pay a decent rate(I'm not suggesting you are this way).

Jim-mi · #10 08/03/12, 07:50 AM

Go reread what Rambler posted . . . . .. .

Kinda hard to determine what you need from your description.......

What with today's prices that $2250 *might* not be out of line.

Large gauge wire for any **distance** of a run adds up $$$ real fast.
Trenching and conduit adds up in a hurry........
Sub boxes can be pricy.......

When someone on here tells you you can lay 'underground' wire on the ground and then cover it with a couple inches of earth . . . . . .THAT is the worst kind of advice you can follow . . . .Like running wire in trees . . . TROUBLE CITY . . . . .

It is most unfortunate that people today expect every thing at less than wallyfarts prices ................

Proper electrical wiring that will be trouble free for years and years costs more than $2 bucks.

Can't help you on available local electricians....................

gobug · #11 08/03/12, 08:04 AM

I have just made good progress on installing electricity on my mtn property.

I used NEC. The soft cover book was $77 and an invaluable guide for me to install the electricity myself. The book is not an easy read, but the pictures tables and codes are well worth the time to read and read and read until I understand.

It seems to me that your major cost will be the wire to get to the barn. How much electricity do you need??? What are you doing in the barn that requires electricity?? If it is just for lighting, I suggest solar.

If you have equipment that is hard wired (not plugged in) or just things that are plugged in, you have complications.

Since getting wire to the barn is the bulk of the labor, see if you can do that part yourself to ease the cost. Whether you have to bury the cable or put it up in the air on poles, if that part is done right, the electrician cost will be a lot lower.

good luck
Gary

CarolT · #12 08/03/12, 08:28 AM

Be sure if you plan to bury the wire that you get underground rated wire. If up on poles, one rated for outdoor use. They are covered differently according to their use.

OP didn't say the $2250 was out of line but that the person never got back to her and apparently didn't want the job. That said... Ouch! So glad dh is in construction and does such things

Not that I wouldn't expect someone to get paid for what they did, I just know I'd be buying a Coleman lantern to be doing my barn chores LOL

If you don't have to have more than lighting all the time, solar may be your best option.

What others said about doing the research and doing everything but hooking it in then letting them inspect and hook in may be another good idea. Just make sure you have everything to specs.

Alice In TX/MO · #13 08/03/12, 08:40 AM

You need to call the guy who gave you the estimate. He told you what he'd charge, the ball is in YOUR court. He's busy. Call him.

frogmammy · #14 08/03/12, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

You need to call the guy who gave you the estimate. He told you what he'd charge, the ball is in YOUR court. He's busy. Call him.

Yep, she's right! By you not calling him, he figures you don't want him to do the job.

Mon

frankva · #15 08/03/12, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WileEcoyote

I am a master electrician in Iowa. I know it can be difficult finding someone who will work out of town. Be careful doing this yourself, while it is a pretty easy install for someone like me most non-electricians may miss a few important safety points.

I'm not defending the no shows you have been getting, but running a electrical contractor outside city limits is very difficult. Everyone wants a deal, and nobody wants to pay a decent rate(I'm not suggesting you are this way).

What he said. "Few important safety points."

PrettyPaisley · #16 08/03/12, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

You need to call the guy who gave you the estimate. He told you what he'd charge, the ball is in YOUR court. He's busy. Call him.

You would think. Thing is, I called him once when I was given his name, he called back saying he would come out the next day. He didn't come out and didn't call. I called him back telling him I was expecting him and if he needed to come at a different time I understood. I get he's "busy". I had a homebased (successful) business for 10 years and I got busy, too, but I called people back to follow up when I wanted their business. I've had so many issues in the past couple of years with people not showing up and doing a crappy job that for once I figure if someone is willing to at least stay in touch with me they want to work and will do a good job-and show up!

Not to mention his estimate was a week and a half later than he said it would be.

I understand that the wire will be pricey. I've figured it will cost about $600-$700 just for the wire. I know I will be renting the Ditch Witch at a tune of $200 and digging 300FT myself (as the original quote was to pay him $600 to do it-which leads me to think he might be more pricey than I can afford as I would be paying him $400 just for dragging a trencher around). Is it too much to ask someone what they charge for labor vs. materials. Don't get me wrong-I'm a huge Capitalist and think people should be compensated for their labor, but I also feel I have a right to compare that amount and decide if it's something I think I can do with my time.

I don't want to burn my barn down but I don't want to wait and I don't want to pay through the nose. I was hoping to have enough juice out there to be able to install a hot water heater at some point since hoofing it back up the hill for washing buckets is getting to be a pain.

I'll see if I can find some others in the area who might be able to help me out. Thanks!

Jim-mi · #17 08/03/12, 10:08 AM

Electric hot water just upped the price.

Even if you "Do the Ditch Witch your self" . .are you versed into gluing up and running conduit . . .?? . . .and pulling the wire in the conduit . .??
That is no small job...............

If done right that install could out last you/.................

rambler · #18 08/03/12, 11:18 AM

Few years ago it cost about $2500 to have 120 feet of wire to my new machine shed, a breaker box, 4 lights, 6 outlets, and an outdoor light. Was a 200 amp service he extended because that was available, no point being stupid and scaling back 'on the cheap' and then have to redo it in 5 years when I want more power.

I dug the trench, that saved me some time, and him some hassle of using his time hustling a ditch witch around when he is a trained electrician, can use his time for wiring, not digging.

Sounds like you got a pretty good estimate there, too bad you didn't follow up on it. As a busy electrician, I would be working on jobs or more estimates, not recalling folks.....

Bavk in 2008, I rewired the whole farm, not the buildings but the 1950's overhead 8ga wiring. Went from 60 amp total service to 200 amp. They put everything underground. Was $12,000. I sleep better and have power where I need it.

Maybe you could ask around the feed store, coop, machinery dealers, the ag places, if they know of a good electrician? There will be a better ag one that will do your project better, you just have to find him. Sounds liek you are finding the in-town house wiring guys....

--->Paul

PrettyPaisley · #19 08/03/12, 11:42 AM

Paul-thanks for the prices. That is what I am looking for. I know not to go with less than 100 amp wire because I don't want to have to do this again when I decide I need more down the road. But I agree I probably should find someone who works on barns as well as houses.

But I still maintain that he should follow up. It doesn't take much to send an email or make a phone call when the estimate was sent to me via email. For all he knows I never received it-1.5 weeks after I started looking for it.

Nimrod · #20 08/03/12, 12:10 PM

Nobody wants to give you detailed advice because it opens them up to liability. If you follow the NEC book to the letter, reguardless of what anyone here (including me) tells you, you should be OK. The other consideration is the inspector. Every inspector has their own pet things that have to be done their way. It might not be a bad idea to run what you want to do past the inspector before you do it.

If you plan to do the digging check into having someone mark where the buried electrical lines are and water too. Here, there is an 800 number you can call and they will do it for free.

A few, but certainly not all, the points to check follow.

How much amperage can you get from the pole? How much amperage do you want/need in the barn? Can you get what you want/need given how much you can get from the pole and the loss in a 300 foot run? The size of the wire you run depends on the amperage in the barn and the length of the run. You have a trade off between how much amperage is in the barn and how much the wire costs. Personally, I would go for the most amperage you can get in the barn.

Look into putting a shut off switch box with a circuit breaker of the appropriate amperage on the pole. This would trip if the circuits in the barn drew too much amperage.

Check and see what the requirements are for putting ground rods in by the barn. Most places require the panel in the barn be grounded.

Check with the sales people in the home improvement store. You mey luck out and find an electrician working there because they can't find work right now.